How long before Irish reunification?

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

There's no debate to be had.

At the time of the GFA 1998, the SDLP was the largest NI Nationalist party. SF (who supported violence) did not emerge as the largest Nationalist/ Republican party until 2001, after the killing had stopped.....

FACT.

Just accept it Francie.

You are bull****ting now to try and cover the manufactured myth you let slip.

That 'John Hume made the agreement on behalf of the Nationalist side'

The SDLP represented 21% of nationalists in 1998 while SF represented 17% in the elections closest to the GFA.
Utter nonsense (not to mention a lie), to suggest Hume represented all nationalists.

It is also complete nonsense to suggest that Hume agreed anything on his own...read the accounts.
Hume signed the Multi-Party agreement just like the other party leaders.

Stop with the myth-making.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Seamus Mallon had more Republicanism in his little finger than Adams had in his whole body. Adams has no concept of the true meaning of Republicanism

Yeh...Mallon was afraid for his political party if he signed up to a deal or if SF got too much for nationalists. Great republican alright.

Adams risked his life to sign that deal and to keep people onside.

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop with the myth-making.

Have it your way then.

The IRA won, violence won, and John Hume and the peaceful SDLP lost. The Belfast agreement could only have been signed with Adams agreement, Sinn Fein was the largest party in the North, and the Brits were sent packing, oh yeah and .... Up the RA.

For somebody who keeps telling is that you don't support Sinn Fein or the PIRA you are doing an outstanding job defending their legacy

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Have it your way then.

The IRA won, violence won, and John Hume and the peaceful SDLP lost.

I never said any of that, but you have succinctly demonstrated why myths are important to you.
You created/passed on two major ones that partitionists are fond of.

1. That SF and the IRA had no support until the IRA decommissioned...demonstratively wrong (see the back-up I posted earlier) if we use the only barometer we have - elections of the period.

2. That John Hume both; represented all nationalists and that he 'agreed the GFA on behalf of all nationalists.
Complete gobbledygook myth making.

The Belfast agreement could only have been signed with Adams agreement, Sinn Fein was the largest party in the North, and the Brits were sent packing, oh yeah and .... Up the RA.

Nobody said any of the above either, but, now that you mention the importance of SF to the success of the talks, the Irish government was not signing anything unless SF were signed up to it. Read the accounts, they explicitly said that to the British at a crisis point in the talks.

For somebody who keeps telling is that you don't support Sinn Fein or the PIRA you are doing an outstanding job defending their legacy

I don't engage in SDLP/partitionist myth making, which is what you have been found out doing. Along with a few others here, so you have company.

jm08

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

There's no debate to be had.

At the time of the GFA 1998, the SDLP was the largest NI Nationalist party. SF (who supported violence) did not emerge as the largest Nationalist/ Republican party until 2001, after the killing had stopped.....

FACT.

Just accept it Francie.

You have to bear in mind that SF only entered politics in 1985, and then of course there was the appearance broadcasting ban on BBC & RTE up to 1989.


https://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/gallsum.htm



This is a useful resource which gives the voting percentage of the local elections from 1985. It looks like very steady progress.



1985: SDLP: 18%; SF: 12%.
1989: SDLP: 21%; SF: 11%.
1993: SDLP: 22%; SF: 12%.
1997: SDLP: 21%; SF: 17%.
2001: SDLP: 19%; SF: 21%.
2005: SDLP: 17%; SF: 23%.
2011: SDLP: 15%; SF: 25%.

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

There's no debate to be had.

At the time of the GFA 1998, the SDLP was the largest NI Nationalist party. SF (who supported violence) did not emerge as the largest Nationalist/ Republican party until 2001, after the killing had stopped.....

FACT.

Just accept it Francie.

Not quite true. A huge percentage of the nationalist electorate simply refused to vote until 98.

SDLP polled around 160,000 votes. When SF first ran, they dropped to 120,000 votes, with SF taking about 100,000 votes, dropping to about 80,000 thereafter. SF brought along tens of thousands of first time voters when they first ran. Huge percentages of nationalists simply weren't voting even after SF ran for the first time, they would not engage with the process. One could assume these were not SDLP supporters

jm08

20-30 years

Edgware wrote: »

Seamus Mallon had more Republicanism in his little finger than Adams had in his whole body. Adams has no concept of the true meaning of Republicanism

Why was there friction between Hume and Mallon?

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Not quite true. A huge percentage of the nationalist electorate simply refused to vote until 98.

SDLP polled around 160,000 votes. When SF first ran, they dropped to 120,000 votes, with SF taking about 100,000, dropping to about 80,000 thereafter. SF brought along 10 of thousands of first time voters. Huge percentages of nationalists simply weren't voting even after SF ran for the first time, they would not engage with the process. One could assume these were not SDLP supporters

HC's grasp of history is almost as bizarre as his grasp of figures. It is a myth, this invention that goes on around the SDLP.

They (Mallon, McGrady and the SDLP) forced Hume to do a solo run on his talks with Adams and then you have Mallon fretting about SF eating into his party's support in the middle of unprecedented talks to find a solution to conflict and war.

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

HC's grasp of history is almost as bizarre as his grasp of figures. It is a myth, this invention that goes on around the SDLP.

They (Mallon, McGrady and the SDLP) forced Hume to do a solo run on his talks with Adams and then you have Mallon fretting about SF eating into his party's support in the middle of unprecedented talks to find a solution to conflict and war.

It's the southern narrative to whitewash SF's/the provisional movements support within the nationalist population. It get's trotted out all the time, with no real in dept analysis of the nationalist viewpoint. Why would many engage in a process designed for the sole purpose of keeping them in a minority?

FrancieBrady

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's the southern narrative to whitewash SF's/the provisional movements support within the nationalist population. It get's trotted out all the time, with no real in dept analysis of the nationalist viewpoint. Why would many engage in a process designed for the sole purpose of keeping them in a minority?

Yes, we had very recently markodaly posting the same rubbish, get shown the voting facts and disappeared from the debate or certainly never addressed the facts.
Now HC tries it, when confronted with the facts, his angle is to start pretending I said things I didn't say at all.
Gas folk really.

Redgirl82

Runaways wrote: »

Who said that

You either have comprehension problems or are willfullly misrepresenting what is said

Over several topics too
Funny thing that

So where is the money coming from?

You brought up the HSE so that would suggest you are taking the money off the HSE or why mention it?

Is it my problem all your points make no sense? Across loads of topics

armaghlad

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So where is the money coming from?

You brought up the HSE so that would suggest you are taking the money off the HSE or why mention it?

Is it my problem all your points make no sense? Across loads of topics

Do you reckon re-unification is going to be forced through over-night or would it be more of a process over a set period of time?

Redgirl82

armaghlad wrote: »

Do you reckon re-unification is going to be forced through over-night or would it be more of a process over a set period of time?

I asked who would pay for the North? where is the money coming from

Hamsterchops

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Not quite true. A huge percentage of the nationalist electorate simply refused to vote until 98.

Well that's handy :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein weren't the largest Nationalist party because the Nationalist population refused to vote for them, why? What were they waiting for?

Anyway, all this waffle & piffle takes me back to my main point, that during The Troubles, the SDLP were the largest Nationalist party, only to be outvoted by the Shinners after the PIRA agreed to put their arms beyond use < this is a Fact.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well that's handy :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein weren't the largest Nationalist party because the Nationalist population refused to vote for them, why? What were they waiting for?

Anyway, all this waffle & piffle takes me back to my main point that during The Troubles, the SDLP were the largest Nationalist party, only to be outvoted by the Shinners after the PIRA agreed to put their arms beyond use < this is a Fact.

That is not what ypu said originally.
Stop the abject lying.
You got caught propounding myths.

Edgware

jm08 wrote: »

Why was there friction between Hume and Mallon?

Mallon was stuck in the Murder Triangle of Armagh for years. He condemmed Provo murders, Loyalist murders and British forces murders unreservedly and lived under threat from both sides. Hume was representing Derry and spent a lot of time away in London Brussels and the U.S. Mallon was closer to the ground and saw the civil war potential of the campaign of violence

blinding

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

I asked who would pay for the North? where is the money coming from

I was hoping you were loaded and we could make a match ! !;)

Isn’t it funny where money can be found when it suits !

Such as the present crisis ! Money has been found at levels that nobody would have imagined to try to Keep the Political Establishment ( FFG ) in situ.

Jayasus, if some needy cause had been looking for a few pound before this crisis they would have been told the coffers are empty , sorry and all that !

Now there is money like never before just to save FFG’s skin ! !

Edgware

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh...Mallon was afraid for his political party if he signed up to a deal or if SF got too much for nationalists. Great republican alright.

Adams risked his life to sign that deal and to keep people onside.

Republicans dont plantbombs in shopping centres or pubs.
Adams didnt risk his life by joining the I.R.A. though. He left that to to the young men and women he encouraged and who ended up dead or wasting their young lives in prison

blinding

10-15 years

Edgware wrote: »

Republicans dont plantbombs in shopping centres or pubs.
Adams didnt risk his life by joining the I.R.A. though. He left that to to the young men and women he encouraged and who ended up dead or wasting their young lives in prison

Sure , everyone knows Gerry was in the IRA

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Mallon was stuck in the Murder Triangle of Armagh for years. He condemmed Provo murders, Loyalist murders and British forces murders unreservedly and lived under threat from both sides. Hume was representing Derry and spent a lot of time away in London Brussels and the U.S. Mallon was closer to the ground and saw the civil war potential of the campaign of violence

And the possible demise of his own party was always the priority. And he hated to be told that.

He got the wrong side of history with the Hume-Adams initiative and paid the price. He was bitter about that until the end.
He wasnt the only one living in Armagh either. There were many under threat.

FrancieBrady

Edgware wrote: »

Republicans dont plantbombs in shopping centres or pubs.
Adams didnt risk his life by joining the I.R.A. though. He left that to to the young men and women he encouraged and who ended up dead or wasting their young lives in prison

Adams was shot, shot at, and under threat for most if not all the conflict/war from all sides.
He took risks, not even the most bitter can deny that.

The Golden Miller

20-30 years

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Well that's handy :rolleyes:

Sinn Fein weren't the largest Nationalist party because the Nationalist population refused to vote for them, why? What were they waiting for?

Anyway, all this waffle & piffle takes me back to my main point, that during The Troubles, the SDLP were the largest Nationalist party, only to be outvoted by the Shinners after the PIRA agreed to put their arms beyond use < this is a Fact.

Why didn't they vote SDLP if they wanted to vote at all? Tens of thousands refused to engage in the flawed process that was designed to keep them as a minority.

Are you suggesting this isn't the case?

Redgirl82

blinding wrote: »

I was hoping you were loaded and we could make a match ! !;)

Isn’t it funny where money can be found when it suits !

Such as the present crisis ! Money has been found at levels that nobody would have imagined to try to Keep the Political Establishment ( FFG ) in situ.

Jayasus, if some needy cause had been looking for a few pound before this crisis they would have been told the coffers are empty , sorry and all that !

Now there is money like never before just to save FFG’s skin ! !

We owe billions. The only reason we are getting away with Covid is because it is hitting the rest of the World and it is a crisis.

Republic taking on the North we will need to find the money ourselves or borrow more from Europe. We cannot support a public system with 30% of the population working in it, so if we had a United Ireland you are talking at least 15% of those would have to be sacked. That is redundancy etc.

It would cripple Rep of Ireland.....

So for all the chat, unless someone can explain how the Republic can afford it no point talking about any referendum.

blinding

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

We owe billions. The only reason we are getting away with Covid is because it is hitting the rest of the World and it is a crisis.

Republic taking on the North we will need to find the money ourselves or borrow more from Europe. We cannot support a public system with 30% of the population working in it, so if we had a United Ireland you are talking at least 15% of those would have to be sacked. That is redundancy etc.

It would cripple Rep of Ireland.....

So for all the chat, unless someone can explain how the Republic can afford it no point talking about any referendum.

But let’s say hypothetically Covid-19 had not happened it is quite probable if the will was there it could have been done !

If the will is not there then nothing can be done. If I decide I am not getting up off this chair then I am not getting up off this chair. In other words the Southern establishment ( FFG and Media ) have absolutely no desire to do so, so ‘ it can’t be done “ And in fairness they have convinced more than a few ‘ it can’t be done “ and thats handy when ya don’t want to do it ! ! !

Brendan Bendar

Redgirl82 wrote: »

We owe billions. The only reason we are getting away with Covid is because it is hitting the rest of the World and it is a crisis.

Republic taking on the North we will need to find the money ourselves or borrow more from Europe. We cannot support a public system with 30% of the population working in it, so if we had a United Ireland you are talking at least 15% of those would have to be sacked. That is redundancy etc.

It would cripple Rep of Ireland.....

So for all the chat, unless someone can explain how the Republic can afford it no point talking about any referendum.

Disfunctional place, Redser, correct and right.

Nobody in their right mind would take it on.

Basket case.

Redgirl82

blinding wrote: »

But let’s say hypothetically Covid-19 had not happened it is quite probable if the will was there it could have been done !

If the will is not there then nothing can be done. If I decide I am not getting up off this chair then I am not getting up off this chair. In other words the Southern establishment ( FFG and Media ) have absolutely no desire to do so, so ‘ it can’t be done “ And in fairness they have convinced more than a few ‘ it can’t be done “ and thats handy when ya don’t want to do it ! ! !

Im not FG. I know that the standard accusation fired out at everyone here.

I am a person with a job and a family. Mortgage etc.

So I don't care if you get your ass off a seat or not. Please explain how Rep of Ireland can support Northern Ireland if we are united?

Everyone seems obsessed with getting it to happen, this is the basic information people would need.

blinding

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

Im not FG. I know that the standard accusation fired out at everyone here.

I am a person with a job and a family. Mortgage etc.

So I don't care if you get your ass off a seat or not. Please explain how Rep of Ireland can support Northern Ireland if we are united?

Everyone seems obsessed with getting it to happen, this is the basic information people would need.

Sure the Eu lads and lassies were all over the border re; Brexit.

Some of them were just about resisting the urge to tip up wheel barrows of cash all alone the Border.

Sure the Brits will stump up a bit of cash to get the wee nuisance off their hands.

It’ll be grand !

Redgirl82

blinding wrote: »

Sure the Eu lads and lassies were all over the border re; Brexit.

Some of them were just about resisting the urge to tip up wheel barrows of cash all alone the Border.

Sure the Brits will stump up a bit of cash to get the wee nuisance off their hands.

It’ll be grand !

So like everything to do with Sinn Fein and its supporters you have no plan. A pipe dream with no idea how to actually make it succeed.

Fairly basic would you not think to put an economical plan in place first before going on about referendums?

FrancieBrady

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So like everything to do with Sinn Fein and its supporters you have no plan. A pipe dream with no idea how to actually make it succeed.

Fairly basic would you not think to put an economical plan in place first before going on about referendums?

A lot of work has been done on this already. We have the new Unity Unit proposed.
This won't be a leap in the dark. There is too much at stake.

blinding

10-15 years

Redgirl82 wrote: »

So like everything to do with Sinn Fein and its supporters you have no plan. A pipe dream with no idea how to actually make it succeed.

Fairly basic would you not think to put an economical plan in place first before going on about referendums?

Don’t mind that auld stuff. It'll be grand. Lets take the ride together ! !

I am not a Sinn Fein supporter. I am a much more extreme Irish Nationalist / Irish Republican than Sinn Fein ( though non Violent ).