How long before Irish reunification?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

It seems the more vociferous among us are rattled because the idea of reunification has emerged in the uk at top levels and in media regularly and more frequently.
Coupled with the fact that we all know Boris would and will dump NI in a heartbeat, it’s easy to understand why the unionists among us are starting to sweat.

dudara

Bambi wrote: »

Fair play to those Shinnerbots they seem to be getting a lot of traction in the media these days

I issued a previous mod warning on this thread to knock off on use of immflamatory terms like “shinnerbot”. It adds nothing to the conversation.

dudara

FrancieBrady

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

And another thing, I think the Nordies and SFers are going to get a serious land when the referendum to give them voting rights in October is rejected.

It isn't a referendum to give them (Nordies and SFers) voting rights, it is a referendum to give the Irish Diaspora around the world 'voting rights'.

Totally different proposition. Why do you think it will fail?

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It seems the more vociferous among us are rattled because the idea of reunification has emerged in the uk at top levels and in media regularly and more frequently.
Coupled with the fact that we all know Boris would and will dump NI in a heartbeat, it’s easy to understand why the unionists among us are starting to sweat.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail won't be moving on that anytime soon. Sinn Fein are collapsing in the Republic. If I was a Nordie I'd move down here or emigrate. Their economy is in serious trouble.

facehugger99

It's an outrageous affront to democracy to give non resident, non taxpayers a say in the running of our country.

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It isn't a referendum to give them (Nordies and SFers) voting rights, it is a referendum to give the Irish Diaspora around the world 'voting rights'.

Totally different proposition. Why do you think it will fail?

I'm not opposed to it but I've seen a lot of people who are, "no representation without taxation" "if you want to vote here then move here"

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail won't be moving on that anytime soon. Sinn Fein are collapsing in the Republic. If I was a Nordie I'd move down here or emigrate. Their economy is in serious trouble.

Vast majority of students from NI go to college in the uk and don’t return.
That brain drain up there is already happening and has been a long time.
FF &FG both have spoken and recently on reunification, Leo recently saying it still remains an aspiration for him and in the constitution also. This is recognised in the GFA also.
SF don’t own the idea of a UI.
That’s a notion people need to be made aware of and disabused of

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I'm not opposed to it but I've seen a lot of people who are, "no representation without taxation" "if you want to vote here then move here"

If voting opened up to the Irish diaspora globally, a UI referendum would sail through with a landslide.

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

It's an outrageous affront to democracy to give non resident, non taxpayers a say in the running of our country.

I would want assurances that it's just Presidential voting rights. The issue would be if they get that they may want votes in everything.

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

If voting opened up to the Irish diaspora globally, a UI referendum would sail through with a landslide.

That won't be happening.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

That won't be happening.

I’d be against it myself.

Fionn1952

15-20 years

I'd be fully against extending voting rights to all diaspora myself, and will be voting as such.

I'm also against extending voting rights to my fellow Nordies who aren't residents here. I don't see how it has any bearing whatsoever in a discussion around unification though.

FrancieBrady

Expatriates being given voting rights is the norm around the world rather than being unusual.

From Wikipedia:

As of 2006, 93 countries allowed their expatriate citizens to vote: 21 African countries, 13 countries in the Americas, 15 Asian countries, 6 Pacific countries, and 36 European countries.

I haven't looked at the Bill or proposal yet, but I see nothing wrong with it in principle.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd be fully against extending voting rights to all diaspora myself, and will be voting as such.

I'm also against extending voting rights to my fellow Nordies who aren't residents here. I don't see how it has any bearing whatsoever in a discussion around unification though.

It’s a very obvious ‘we have no actual tangible arguments against a UI so well throw anything at it we can find’ sorta thing.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd be fully against extending voting rights to all diaspora myself, and will be voting as such.

I'm also against extending voting rights to my fellow Nordies who aren't residents here. I don't see how it has any bearing whatsoever in a discussion around unification though.

I think it was introduced to the conversation to infer that a No vote would teach the 'Nordie's and SFers' a lesson or two.

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Vast majority of students from NI go to college in the uk and don’t return.
That brain drain up there is already happening and has been a long time.
FF &FG both have spoken and recently on reunification, Leo recently saying it still remains an aspiration for him and in the constitution also. This is recognised in the GFA also.
SF don’t own the idea of a UI.
That’s a notion people need to be made aware of and disabused of

They are right to leave it's a backwards kip. I'm only surprised even more don't leave. FF/FG won't be bringing about a United Ireland anytime soon. Maybe in 20 years when demographics make it feasible. There are enough Prods to make things very difficult now.

And the British need to be on board or they would sabotage the whole thing. Sure they still have a big MI5 base in Palace Barracks.

bobbysands81

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Vast majority of students from NI go to college in the uk and don’t return.
That brain drain up there is already happening and has been a long time.
FF &FG both have spoken and recently on reunification, Leo recently saying it still remains an aspiration for him and in the constitution also. This is recognised in the GFA also.
SF don’t own the idea of a UI.
That’s a notion people need to be made aware of and disabused of

100% agree with this.

When a United Ireland happens it’s not going to be a case of subsuming the 6 counties into the Republic. It has to be a brand new and shared future where everything, including rejoining the Commonwealth(sic), will be on the cards.

New flags, anthems, style of parliament... everything will change.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% agree with this.

When a United Ireland happens it’s not going to be a case of subsiding the 6 counties into the Republic. It has to be a brand new and shared future where everything, including rejoining the Commonwealth(sic), will be on the cards.

New flags, anthems, style of parliament... everything will change.

They’re already represented on our flag
The anthem though. That might have to go.

FrancieBrady

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% agree with this.

When a United Ireland happens it’s not going to be a case of subsiding the 6 counties into the Republic. It has to be a brand new and shared future where everything, including rejoining the Commonwealth(sic), will be on the cards.

New flags, anthems, style of parliament... everything will change.

The huge danger for Unionism (and Peter Robinson and others are warning about this, rightfully so) is that they need to confront the inevitable. A border poll.

They cannot afford to be dragged into a UI, they need to negotiate it, or they are in danger as an ethnicity.
They should look very closely at what happened here after independence, the protestant community basically ignored and removed itself almost entirely from the running of the country (Some very good writing on it from protestants themselves) and ended up depleting itself. It is only beginning to recover.

BarryD2

bobbysands81 wrote: »

When a United Ireland happens it’s not going to be a case of subsiding the 6 counties into the Republic. It has to be a brand new and shared future where everything, including rejoining the Commonwealth(sic), will be on the cards.

New flags, anthems, style of parliament... everything will change.

That's the sort of thinking that would be unpopular among certain sections of the citizenry down South. But it's the right and only way of looking at it. If we want unity, it has to be by mutual consent and persuasion. And that may well mean putting aside many of the touchstones of Irish nationalism, stick them away in the cupboard for a couple of generations.

We need to look at undoing the processes that lead to the formation of the Free State, welding the parts together and moving on as a whole.

Fan of Netflix

30-40 years

bobbysands81 wrote: »

100% agree with this.

When a United Ireland happens it’s not going to be a case of subsiding the 6 counties into the Republic. It has to be a brand new and shared future where everything, including rejoining the Commonwealth(sic), will be on the cards.

New flags, anthems, style of parliament... everything will change.

I would be totally opposed to the above. Total pipe dream if you think people here will agree to that. Its borderline offensive how you use our flag and anthem as a sop to loyalists. The flag is already orange.

Rejoin the commonwealth? Why not rejoin the UK full stop? Laughable.

Dyr

Do not debate mod action on thread. Feel free to contact a mod directly or raise the matter in the Help Desk.

dudara

bobbysands81

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I would be totally opposed to the above. Total pipe dream if you think people here will agree to that. Its borderline offensive how you use our flag and anthem as a sop to loyalists. The flag is already orange.

Rejoin the commonwealth? Why not rejoin the UK full stop? Laughable.

But that is precisely why the debate on what a United Ireland will look like needs to begin. As Francis Brady said, a border poll is inevitable, a majority for a UI is also inevitable. The more intransigent unionists remain the closer they are driving towards a UI.

Unionism needs to grasp the nettle and join the debate about what a UI looks like, they will get massive concessions and your average working class unionist will be far better off. The political union has failed them miserably.

I think we can also be a bit more pragmatic. We can get what we want without having to completely annihilate unionism... they’re doing that themselves at the moment. Unionism is dying.

FrancieBrady

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

I would be totally opposed to the above. Total pipe dream if you think people here will agree to that. Its borderline offensive how you use our flag and anthem as a sop to loyalists. The flag is already orange.

Rejoin the commonwealth? Why not rejoin the UK full stop? Laughable.

Why do you think we will be negotiating a UI with 'loyalists'?

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

To be fair SF have been calling for an all island forum and dialogue on this. Mary Lou saying the unionist community need to take part or get left behind. She’s not wrong.
They have an entrenched isolationist mindset though and that said they’re not the ones need to be convinced. The middle ground is the majority up there.
That’s who needs to be included and convinced.
It’ll happen soon enough thanks to brexit.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

Kind of a funny paradox when it comes to it. Irish patriots unwilling to drop the flag or anthem if it means reunification of the country.
I can see this being a thing come the time.

facehugger99

Flags and Anthems - what a load of guff.

It'll be economics and the threat of loyalist violence that'll decide the issue for voters in the ROI.

Nobody gives a ****e about a piece of fabric when you can't pay your mortgage or collect your pension because the country's been bankrupted and there's bombs going off in the IFSC.

Deluded stuff altogether.

bobbysands81

facehugger99 wrote: »

Flags and Anthems - what a load of guff.

It'll be economics and the threat of loyalist violence that'll decide the issue for voters in the ROI.

Nobody gives a ****e about a piece of fabric when you can't pay your mortgage or collect your pension because the country's been bankrupted and there's bombs going off in the IFSC.

Deluded stuff altogether.

You’re deluded thinking that’s going to be the outcome!

Loyalists have never been able to mount any kind of attacks without the help of the Brits. As long as they have their own turf to sell drugs to they’ll be too busy to bother Dublin.

Stop moaning ffs

10-15 years

facehugger99 wrote: »

Flags and Anthems - what a load of guff.

It'll be economics and the threat of loyalist violence that'll decide the issue for voters in the ROI.

Nobody gives a ****e about a piece of fabric when you can't pay your mortgage or collect your pension because the country's been bankrupted and there's bombs going off in the IFSC.

Deluded stuff altogether.

The NI economy is already tanking with no sign of recovery. The UK doesn’t care.
You are correct for once.
People will see the benefit in their pockets of a UI and vote accordingly.

BarryD2

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

To be fair SF have been calling for an all island forum and dialogue on this. Mary Lou saying the unionist community need to take part or get left behind. She’s not wrong.

Mary Lou telling the unionist community that they need to take part or get left behind is just exactly why they won't. And both she and SF know that - politics up north is first & foremost about controlling your own respective community. A UI or maintenance of the Union is secondary. You tell your respective community what they want to hear, keep them divided and keep your bum on the seat. That's about it. A UI will never come from them, it needs a thoughtful attitude down here in the Republic, a willingness to persuade and be open to different political structures that will encompass all. Give and take, not take all.