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How long before Irish reunification?

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    #1412
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where did I ever say they would get violent?

    Boycotts, protest marches, non-payment of taxes, no co-operation with the new State etc. etc. There are many ways that they could refuse to accept without descending to IRA levels.

    Sorry I forgot, in blanch's 'non' fantasist world the only violent people were the Irish ones. :rolleyes:
    It is a clear sign of a UI fantasist that they believe a vote will pass and then everyone will live happily ever after accepting the new reality of a united Ireland. It is a hopelessly naive belief.


    Nobody...absolutely nobody has said that 'everyone will live happily ever after'.

    More facile invention because of lack of argument.

    If 75% say they will accept a majority vote then it is an entirely reasonable expectation that they will work with the new arrangement.


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    #1413
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,792 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where did I ever say they would get violent?

    Boycotts, protest marches, non-payment of taxes, no co-operation with the new State etc. etc. There are many ways that they could refuse to accept without descending to IRA levels.

    It is a clear sign of a UI fantasist that they believe a vote will pass and then everyone will live happily ever after accepting the new reality of a united Ireland. It is a hopelessly naive belief.


    For what purpose? Britain (or England by then) will not come back.
    The IRA had the objective of removing an injustice, these people would have no justification other than racketerering.


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    #1414
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Not a problem like N Ireland though

    Just because partitionists ignored it in the 100yrs since it was artificially created, doen't mean that northern Ireland hasn't been a massive problem for us.

    It is about to become a huge problem for us in a different way and shows up how utterly ridiculous and wrong partition was.


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    #1415
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Just because partitionists ignored it in the 100yrs since it was artificially created, doen't mean that northern Ireland hasn't been a massive problem for us.

    It is about to become a huge problem for us in a different way and shows up how utterly ridiculous and wrong partition was.

    There would have been much worse trouble if you tried to put a million northern Unionist under Dublin rule 100 years ago.


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    #1416
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    There would have been much worse trouble if you tried to put a million northern Unionist under Dublin rule 100 years ago.

    The British gave into a violent threat from the first people to arm themselves...unionists. It was fundamentally wrong and cost this island dearly over the 100 years. It is about to do the same again...the cyclical problems of partition.


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    #1417
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The British gave into a violent threat from the first people to arm themselves...unionists.
    They did not want to be massacred like some were in the rebellion of 1798 for example...plenty of people were armed then too with various weapons.;)


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    #1418
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    They did not want to be massacred like some were in the rebellion of 1798 for example...plenty of people were armed then too with various weapons.;)

    No, they armed themselves and threatened to resist the democratic choice of the people. The British gave in.

    Would you, knowing what you know now about how Unionists were going to use that power, make the same decision today - partition or make sure that the democratic will was upheld?


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    #1419
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No, they armed themselves

    You said they were the "first people to arm themselves...unionists." 100 odd years ago.

    I gave you an example of others being armed over 100 years before that again. (rebellion of 1798). And the reason ( massacre of protestants then).


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    #1420
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 38,572 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Ulster Says No. It will never happen
    Sorry what? Did the poll ask the question 'Do you want NI to continue'?


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    #1421
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Would you, knowing what you know now about how Unionists were going to use that power, make the same decision today - partition or make sure that the democratic will was upheld?

    I believe there were many mistakes made in both parts of Ireland in the 20th century. As Gay Byrne said, we wanted our independence, we had to pay for it. Sadly millions emigrated, there was abuse in our laundries and institutions..


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    #1422
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    You said they were the "first people to arm themselves...unionists." 100 odd years ago.

    I gave you an example of others being armed over 100 years before that again. (rebellion of 1798). And the reason ( massacre of protestants then).

    Jesus, do you ever get tired of the 'but themuns' nonsense.

    There was no gun in Irish politics as Home Rule approached.

    The Larne gun-running put the gun back into Irish politics.

    https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/the-larne-gun-running-of-1914-11/

    I am not trying to re-write history. Those are the facts.


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    #1423
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There was no gun in Irish politics as Home Rule approached.

    The Larne gun-running put the gun back into Irish politics.

    .

    But many would argue the the minority who imported those guns at Larne were getting them for use for defensive purposes, like a nuclear deterrent is nowadays. Who used guns for offensive purposes / rebellions, like in 1916, the 1798 rebellion ( death toll of between 10,000 and 30,000 ) etc?


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    #1424
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    But many would argue

    How many would just accept the fact? And carry on.


    It was Unionists who introduced the gun back into Irish politics. What happened after that is also fact. :rolleyes:


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    #1425
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It was Unionists who introduced the gun back into Irish politics.
    Introduced as a deterrent, for self defence in the event of Irish rebellion / aggression. A prudent measure given the massacre of some protestants in the 1798 rebellion etc.


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    #1426
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 69,202 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Introduced as a deterrent, for self defence in the event of Irish rebellion / aggression. A prudent measure given the massacre of some protestants in the 1798 rebellion etc.

    Irish bad and wrong, Unionist/British good and right? Is this what you are saying? Again. :rolleyes::rolleyes:


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    #1427
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 38,572 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Ulster Says No. It will never happen
    FrancieBrady wrote:
    Irish bad and wrong, Unionist/British good and right? Is this what you are saying? Again.
    Ancient history isn't important. It's the current time we have to think about.
    We don't want a return to the troubles. We don't treat a sizeable amount of the population as if they don't exist. We do things that's the best solution for everybody.


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    #1428
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    eagle eye wrote: »
    Ancient history isn't important. It's the current time we have to think about.
    We don't want a return to the troubles. We don't treat a sizeable amount of the population as if they don't exist. We do things that's the best solution for everybody.

    There’s an awful lot of people in Ireland that say Ireland doesn’t exist outside the M50 around Dublin according to how the government currentand past has operated. A UI would snap a government out of that.


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    #1429
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,326 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/united-ireland-would-see-living-standards-in-republic-fall-by-15-1.3629748

    Last year's report into the likely drop in living standards in the ROI as a result of unification was hopelessly optimistic. I don't believe any account was taken of the certainty of loyalist violence and it's likely impact on the FDI sector.

    Many of our best and brightest would get the hell out of dodge rather than live in the wasteland that the ROI would become, condemning the country to generations of poverty.

    All this will come out in the wash if a UI ever was seriously mooted - the only reason it's not discussed is because it's not even a remote possibility at the moment.

    Deep down even the most hardened republicans, wedded to their fantasy, know it's just that, a fantasy. Hot air on the internet doesn't bring it any closer - nobody with the merest shred of intelligence will actually vote for it in the ROI


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    #1430
    Fionn1952
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    15-20 years
    Are you back to presenting evidence.....and then telling us that your own evidence is wrong and substituting in your own made up figures again, Facehugger?

    Absolutely top class debate there.

    If I pointed to a poll which suggested, for example that 51% of people would vote for a United Ireland, and followed up with stating that those figures were obviously conservative and actually at least 75% would vote for it, you'd rightly call that out as a load of b*llocks. Perhaps you'd be taken more seriously if you applied the same standards to yourself rather than belligerently hurling insults around?


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    #1431
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Irish bad and wrong, Unionist/British good and right? Is this what you are saying?
    No, I just proved you wrong on another of your points, yet again. It was Republicans who used arms, often in cowardly sniping (and running away to hide among civilians) type of attacks, over the centuries. There were and are good and bad people on both sides. You only see it in a very one sided manner, being a supporter of what the IRA did.


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    #1432
    droidman123
    Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭droidman123


    janfebmar wrote: »
    No, I just proved you wrong on another of your points, yet again. It was Republicans who used arms, often in cowardly sniping (and running away to hide among civilians) type of attacks, over the centuries.

    So the british army are the only army in the world that dont have guns?


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    #1433
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    janfebmar wrote: »
    No, I just proved you wrong on another of your points, yet again. It was Republicans who used arms, often in cowardly sniping (and running away to hide among civilians) type of attacks, over the centuries. There were and are good and bad people on both sides. You only see it in a very one sided manner, being a supporter of what the IRA did.

    Why did they take up arms?

    If only we knew. Maybe you could enlighten us?


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    #1434
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,326 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Fionn1952 wrote: »
    Perhaps you'd be taken more seriously if you applied the same standards to yourself rather than belligerently hurling insults around?

    How is your campaign to get me banned going btw? - I've seen a lot of accusations of this type thrown at me over the last couple of days but no evidence presented.

    It's almost as if ye're trying to shout down any voices of dissent that don't agree with a happy-clappy UI outlook.

    You don't like my opinions - don't read them, don't respond to them - quite simple really.


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    #1435
    IAMAMORON
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,078 ✭✭✭IAMAMORON


    Looking forward to cheaper taxes and a better welfare system when the 32 county republic is realised. Bring it on. The south has better treatments for cancer, seemingly the NHS is skivvying on the best drugs, costing lives, especially in the 6 counties.

    A united Ireland will bring better healthcare for the whole island, the sooner the better.


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    #1436
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    20-30 years
    janfebmar wrote: »
    No, I just proved you wrong on another of your points, yet again. It was Republicans who used arms, often in cowardly sniping (and running away to hide among civilians) type of attacks, over the centuries. There were and are good and bad people on both sides. You only see it in a very one sided manner, being a supporter of what the IRA did.


    What is the point of continually dwelling on what happened in the past? Is your concern that that there will be a massacre of protestants in a United Ireland? Do you know any protestants who live in the ROI now who have been discriminated against because of their religion in the last 30 years?


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    #1437
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    10-15 years
    Protestants only account for 4% of the population here. More people on the last census identified as atheists/no religion.
    Please don’t enable Jan to fabricate a nonsense that Protestants here are somehow targeted and victimised.

    The poster will do that anyways though given it’s all the poster ever contributes.


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    #1438
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    20-30 years
    janfebmar wrote: »
    No, I just proved you wrong on another of your points, yet again. It was Republicans who used arms, often in cowardly sniping (and running away to hide among civilians) type of attacks, over the centuries. There were and are good and bad people on both sides. You only see it in a very one sided manner, being a supporter of what the IRA did.


    Seriously, going up against the might of the British Empire using guerilla warfare tactics was cowardly?


    The only cowardly ones were the British Army who mutinied rather than take on the Ulster Volunteers and enforce the Home Rule Bill.


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    #1439
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,792 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    IAMAMORON wrote: »
    Looking forward to cheaper taxes and a better welfare system when the 32 county republic is realised. Bring it on. The south has better treatments for cancer, seemingly the NHS is skivvying on the best drugs, costing lives, especially in the 6 counties.

    A united Ireland will bring better healthcare for the whole island, the sooner the better.


    Indeed, unfortunately I recently had reason to look at the cancer stats and there is a clear gap. Men live 1.5 years longer in the 26 counties and no doubt better cancer treatment is part of this.


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    #1440
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    20-30 years
    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Last year's report into the likely drop in living standards in the ROI as a result of unification was hopelessly optimistic. I don't believe any account was taken of the certainty of loyalist violence and it's likely impact on the FDI sector.


    So, having spent about 15 billions on their site in Kildare, companies like Intel would pull out because of the threat of violence from a few loyalist thugs?


    Its amazing that the Titantic Quarter in Belfast is still standing, bearing in mind who its owners are!


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    #1441
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,971 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Sorry I forgot, in blanch's 'non' fantasist world the only violent people were the Irish ones. :rolleyes:


    Francie, even by your standards, this is quite a bizarre twisting of another poster's posts. Here is the sequence of posts, how that ended with your rolleyes emoji and claiming that I believe the only violent people were the Irish ones is beyond any logic:
    _blaaz wrote: »
    Should people who wanted divorse or abortion accept a no vote in a referendum and stop.campaigning.....in your opioion as a democrat?
    blanch152 wrote: »
    No, I don't believe that people who wanted divorce or abortion would stop campaigning. Neither would I be so naive to think that the vast majority of Unionists would roll over and accept a united Ireland if one poll is passed by 50.1%, but then again, I am not a UI fantasist.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Are you saying the 'vast' majority will get violent?
    They have already accepted this clause, by the way, in the GFA.
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Where did I ever say they would get violent?

    Boycotts, protest marches, non-payment of taxes, no co-operation with the new State etc. etc. There are many ways that they could refuse to accept without descending to IRA levels.

    It is a clear sign of a UI fantasist that they believe a vote will pass and then everyone will live happily ever after accepting the new reality of a united Ireland. It is a hopelessly naive belief.

    You are the one who excuses and explains violence. I don't accept any excuse or any explanation for any illegal violence (once again, to be clear, incidents like Bloody Sunday were clearly illegal).


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