How long before Irish reunification?

markodaly

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I

The people in the North on both sides are a varying mishmash of Irish and Ulster Scots influenced culturally in my experience (being one myself). I think to steamroll over this and ignore it, and telling people from the Ulster Scots side that their culture and history which is distinct from ours doesn't matter, and they can just suck it up and be Irish is foolish. It certainly won't win many friends from the middle ground of Unionism, and this is a cohort who will certainly need to be convinced for unification to proceed.

Agree with this.

There are people in the North who come from the Ulster-Scots tradition, which is different than the 'Irish' tradition. These people peoples share somethings and are different in other ways. We are not exactly the same, therefore just as we are not exactly the same as the Welsh or the Scots.

There are some though who want to engage in ethnic cleansing by proxy and by trying to steamroll the differences in a debate about a UI by trying to claim that we are all 'Irish', thus denying what was agreed upon in the GFA.

On the point about unification, in the event of a UI, we still have to respect the identity and culture of those that come from the Ulster-Scot tradition. Those that want to remain British, should be allowed to do so and identify themselves that way. We need to be inclusive here, not shove the idea on one identity down their throats like some supremacist state. This also means some hard decisions have to be made in respect Irelands relationship with the Commonwealth and Monarchy and British involvement in cross border institutions.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WHERE did I tell anyone what their 'identity' was. I have said over and over again that I fully respect what anyone wants to identify as.

You claim that everyone on the island is Irish when the GFA explicitly states that it is up to the people themselves what identity they want to ascribe to.

Your claim is one of supremacy.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have NO problem whatsoever if people wish to identify as British or Irish or female or Polish or German or Traveller.

Yet, you dismiss the cultural and political differences of those that live in NI. You dismiss the Ulster-Scot tradition and people who live there.

You made a trite and stupid comment about everyone on the island is the exact same people, I am calling you out on it and instead of acknowledging your poor choice of language you double down and make a fool of yourself. :pac:

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

You claim that everyone on the island is Irish when the GFA explicitly states that it is up to the people themselves what identity they want to ascribe to.

Your claim is one of supremacy.

Evryone born here is Irish, by dint of being born here. Simple fact.
I agreed in the GFA to allow and respect what anyone wants to identify as.

Does somebody who claims that they are ALL 'Nordies' respect that?

Come on mark, you know you have been caught ranting against the wrong poster here.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Yet, you dismiss the cultural and political differences of those that live in NI. You dismiss the Ulster-Scot tradition and people who live there.

No I don't. There are cultural variations among all the people who live here. Just as I don't dismiss that hurling is of bigger cultural significance in southern counties than they are in my county.

You made a trite and stupid comment about everyone on the island is the exact same people, I am calling you out on it and instead of acknowledging your poor choice of language you double down and make a fool of yourself. :pac:

We are all the same people by dint of the island on which we are born.

'Nordies' mark...'they are ALL different'...discuss please.

Dytalus

15-20 years

markodaly wrote: »

On the point about unification, in the event of a UI, we still have to respect the identity and culture of those that come from the Ulster-Scot tradition. Those that want to remain British, should be allowed to do so and identify themselves that way. We need to be inclusive here, not shove the idea on one identity down their throats like some supremacist state. This also means some hard decisions have to be made in respect Irelands relationship with the Commonwealth and Monarchy and British involvement in cross border institutions.

I think (assuming a New Ireland doesn't deviate massively from current Ireland on this regard) that the right to be British will only be hampered by, funnily enough, the British if anyone.

Ireland allows dual citizenship. My father got his Irish citizenship two years ago alongside his other (non-UK/Irish/EU to rule out all currently involved parties) citizenship. I also have dual Irish/non-Irish citizenship through him, and it has never caused any problems on the side of the Irish government. I don't foresee this changing in a future New Ireland.

I'm unfamiliar with the UK's rules on dual nationality and citizenship, so I don't know if it would prove a problem or not. But (at least from a legally enforceable standpoint) it would be up to the UK whether or not the people of (what was) Northern Ireland could remain, or continue to be, British. They could label themselves that way if so inclined, of course, but without the approval of the government they would not be British citizens. But with the CTA in place I suppose if they had New Irish citizenship it would be a technicality at that point. No British passport, but they could identify as British and live/work/play in Britain all the same.

I'd imagine joining the Commonwealth would come down to a referendum (similar to joining the EU did). It's not something the new government could decide on by itself. It would be up to the Unionists to make the case that New Ireland should join it to the rest of the country. The cross border institutions would be...complex. More complex than could reasonably be discussed here. Some would no longer be required by dint of the whole region being under one set of rules and governance, the British co-operation simply wouldn't be required. Others would probably have to be examined on a case-by-case basis if they still had a role to play.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Evryone born here is Irish, by dint of being born here. Simple fact.

Nope, the GFA does not make this distinction. In other words, you are wrong.
The people of NI can choose to identify as Irish or British. It is not up to you.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No I don't. There are cultural variations among all the people who live here.

So, the people in the North are not exactly the same as elsewhere in Ireland.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Nope, the GFA does not make this distinction. In other words, you are wrong.
The people of NI can choose to identify as Irish or British. It is not up to you.

The GFA says it is for the 'people of the island of Ireland' to decide their future.

What would you call the people of the island of Jamaica, Austrailia, Mauritiaus etc.

You can dance on the head of a pin, only so long.

The GFA makes a provision for people to 'choose' and identity. It doesn't change where they are from. If we want to get really technical, Northern Ireland as an official entity is not even Britain. it's The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So, the people in the North are not exactly the same as elsewhere in Ireland.

They are exactly the same people as those in Munster but with cultural variations.

markodaly

Dytalus wrote: »

I think (assuming a New Ireland doesn't deviate massively from current Ireland on this regard) that the right to be British will only be hampered by, funnily enough, the British if anyone.

I don't see that tbh. Giving people born in the 6 counties the right to a British passport even in the event of a UI is not a big ask.

I'm unfamiliar with the UK's rules on dual nationality and citizenship, so I don't know if it would prove a problem or not.

The UK allows this.

I'd imagine joining the Commonwealth would come down to a referendum (similar to joining the EU did). It's not something the new government could decide on by itself. It would be up to the Unionists to make the case that New Ireland should join it to the rest of the country.

Well, this would be done as part of the UI negotiations and would be stipulated in a UI referendum. Not some afterthought. We do not want to repeat the same mistakes as Brexit.

The cross border institutions would be...complex. More complex than could reasonably be discussed here. Some would no longer be required by dint of the whole region being under one set of rules and governance, the British co-operation simply wouldn't be required. Others would probably have to be examined on a case-by-case basis if they still had a role to play.

They would be more complex than you imagine. British co-operation again would be part of the agreement in any UI.
Some people think foolishly that the Republic assumes control of the 6 counites and life goes pretty much as normal.

It will be anything but.

We in all essence of the matter will be voting for a new constitution.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are exactly the same people as those in Munster but with cultural variations.

Did your paymasters in West Belfast teach you how to spin your words that way?

People from the Ulster-Scots and Irish tradition are different, I am not sure how else you want me to explain this to you.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA says it is for the 'people of the island of Ireland' to decide their future.

Yes, the Island of Ireland, is a geographical term, like the British Isles is a geographical term.

The GFA is very very explicit about identity. I'll post it again for you.

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

It makes zero references to your claim that if you are born on the island of Ireland, you are therefore also Irish regardless.

None.what.so.ever.

Please read the GFA and educate yourself and stop posting ignorant nonsense.

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

markodaly wrote: »

Nope, the GFA does not make this distinction. In other words, you are wrong.
The people of NI can choose to identify as Irish or British. It is not up to you.

The GFA says it is for the 'people of the island of Ireland' to decide their future.

What would you call the people of the island of Jamaica, Austrailia, Mauritiaus etc.

You can dance on the head of a pin, only so long.

The GFA makes a provision for people to 'choose' and identity. It doesn't change where they are from. If we want to get really technical, Northern Ireland as an official entity is not even Britain. it's The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland.

People from NI have the same passport as me and I'm British...So that makes them British if they choose to identify as British.

Dytalus

15-20 years

markodaly wrote: »

I don't see that tbh. Giving people born in the 6 counties the right to a British passport even in the event of a UI is not a big ask.

No, it's not. My point was merely that the British government would be the more likely bigger obstacle - they are the ones who decide whether you get a British passport or not. I'd wager they'd have no real issue with it especially since....

markodaly wrote: »

The UK allows this.

The more you know. Thank you for that.

markodaly wrote: »

Well, this would be done as part of the UI negotiations and would be stipulated in a UI referendum. Not some afterthought. We do not want to repeat the same mistakes as Brexit.

I'm not so sure on that. Or rather, I'm not sure it would be part of any UI settlement as such. Definitely not an afterthought (assuming it's important enough to the unionist community. There's always the extremely unlikely outcome that not enough of them care to make a point of it), but it should be a separate referendum to the one which unites the two countries. Discuss it, debate it, and decide on how it would be conducted, but it’s not a guarantee it would be decided at the same time as a border poll.

Merging two major decisions into a single referendum only muddies both issues and referendums should be as clear and simple as they possibly can be. Discuss the options, promise (if necessary) to hold a vote on it in the event of unification, but do not mash the two topics together into a single vote.

markodaly wrote: »

They would be more complex than you imagine. British co-operation again would be part of the agreement in any UI.
Some people think foolishly that the Republic assumes control of the 6 counites and life goes pretty much as normal.

It will be anything but.

We in all essence of the matter will be voting for a new constitution.

I don’t disagree. But some bodies won’t be needed – why would we need InterTrade Ireland, for example? There’d be no cross-border trade occurring, because there’d be no border. The SEUPB would no longer be required – again because of a lack of disparity between NI and the Republic and their use of EU funds which it specifically deals with. Not to say the Republic’s national development plan would suddenly overrule Northern Ireland’s own Stuctural Funds plan (a new NDP would have to be written up anyway given we’d have six counties more to accommodate), but that a body specifically designed to co-ordinate to between two separate jurisdictions wouldn’t be required.

I’d definitely be in favour of British involvement – perhaps not forever, because we need to be able to stand on our own two feet, but in the interest of easing the two communities together and properly merging the two states it’s almost mandatory. It would be disgustingly callous of the British to say to what were their own people “Good luck, you’re their problem now” and pull out all structure, just as it would be equally vile of Dublin to say “Tough luck, you belong to us” and smash apart that same structure in favour of our own. There’s going to need to be co-operation for quite some time post a Border Poll, as it’s in the interest of both countries that unification goes smoothly if it’s voted for.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Did your paymasters in West Belfast teach you how to spin your words that way?

People from the Ulster-Scots and Irish tradition are different, I am not sure how else you want me to explain this to you.

Oh jaysus, did you really need to sink to your first sentence here.

Your dispute should be with those here who are 'dictating' that ALL 'Nordies' are different, if you are looking for credibility. It is they they who are in contravention of the GFA.

I recognise the GFA. I respect people's right to identify as they wish. I deal with both identities every day of the week and they are no different as people as the people of Cork are to Monaghan people.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

People from NI have the same passport as me and I'm British...So that makes them British if they choose to identify as British.

People from Dublin have the same passport as me, but identify as a plethora of different things to me. That is perfectly fine in an inclusive, pluralist democratic republic.

What is your point?

RobMc59

10-15 years

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

People from NI have the same passport as me and I'm British...So that makes them British if they choose to identify as British.

People from Dublin have the same passport as me, but identify as a plethora of different things to me. That is perfectly fine in an inclusive, pluralist democratic republic.

What is your point?

You said they're not British which isn't the case-also if you look on the Uk.gov website people from NI are referred to as British.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I recognise the GFA.

Good, then you will know that in the GFA there is no article or statement that stipulates all people born on the Island of Ireland are Irish by default.

It does say the people in NI can choose to be either Irish or British or both.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

You said they're not British which isn't the case-also if you look on the Uk.gov website people from NI are referred to as British.

I at no point denied their identity Rob. Never.

I accept fully their right to identify as British and in a UI will stand up for that right.

I strenuously dispute the claim that the are ALL 'Nordies' and therefore 'different' to the rest of the people on the island of Ireland. We are all Irish people who have differing cultural and political allegiances and the 'right' to do so is enshrined in the GFA, which I voted wholeheartedly for.

Did the person who claimed they are 'ALL Nordies'...do you think? Are you and markodaly standing up for those who identify as Irish in the north by ignoring that comment?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Good, then you will know that in the GFA there is no article or statement that stipulates all people born on the Island of Ireland are Irish by default.

It does say the people in NI can choose to be either Irish or British or both.

The GFA recognises the birthright of all to be Irish or British. That is a conscious and deliberate decision that cannot be taken by a newborn.

What is their status until they are able to choose what identity they want?

The answer is kind of obvious.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GFA recognises the birthright of all to be Irish or British. That is a conscious and deliberate decision that cannot be taken by a newborn.



What is their status until they are able to choose what identity they want?

The answer is kind of obvious.

Oh Jaysus, we are reaching new levels of tap dancing here. :rolleyes:

What does the GFA say about it Francie?

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Oh Jaysus, we are reaching new levels of tap dancing here. :rolleyes:

What does the GFA say about it Francie?

The absurdity of your position here mark is that you are tap dancing so as not to offend. You can not invoke a birthright until you have the ability to do that. None of us are born with an 'identity' already intact and functioning. Identity is something that develops jsut like the ability to talk. Ian Paisley's developed in such a way that he seen himself as Irish but with a British identity.
We are all born in a specific place. Northern Ireland is not Britain...it is Ireland.
I wouldn't call somebody who identifies as British 'Irish' just to annoy or goad them.

I made the point in response to the anti-GFA contention that ALL the people are 'Nordies' there and are different.

Your still missing condemnation of that suggests you are being hypocritical. Can you see why?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The absurdity of your position here...

I am not redefining and making up whole sections of the GFA to suit my nonsense argument that all people in NI are Irish by default. The GFA does not say that at all. It says nothing about people having to wait till their 18 or of an adult age to decide what identity they are, and until then they are 'irish' by default.

It.does.not.say.this

My argument all along is steadfastly aligned with the GFA, something you claim to have voted for and hold to high regard.

Educate yourself because you come across as a fool.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I am not redefining and making up whole sections of the GFA to suit my nonsense argument that all people in NI are Irish by default. The GFA does not say that at all. It says nothing about people having to wait till their 18 or of an adult age to decide what identity they are, and until then they are 'irish' by default.

It.does.not.say.this

My argument all along is steadfastly aligned with the GFA, something you claim to have voted for and hold to high regard.

Educate yourself because you come across as a fool.

Do you agree that nobody is born with an 'identity'?

There was a fella on Joe Duffy, I think, yesterday. He was born in England and now identifies as Irish.

Does the fact that he is English by dint of where he was born change, in your view?

He was specifically asked about it, and he wasn't offended to be seen as English by birth btw.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

I am not redefining and making up whole sections of the GFA to suit my nonsense argument that all people in NI are Irish by default. The GFA does not say that at all. It says nothing about people having to wait till their 18 or of an adult age to decide what identity they are, and until then they are 'irish' by default.

It.does.not.say.this

My argument all along is steadfastly aligned with the GFA, something you claim to have voted for and hold to high regard.

Educate yourself because you come across as a fool.

If we are to accept this is your argument, where is your condemnation of somebody who declares that ALL 'Nordies' are different, when the GFA allows almost half of them to identify as Irish.

Your inconsistency tends to suggest you are being a hypocrite here in attacking my point of view. Which fully accepts and stands up for the rights agreed in the GFA.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which fully accepts and stands up for the rights agreed in the GFA.

If you were true to your word, then you would drop your 'Irish by default' argument, as the GFA does not allude or state this.

This is something you just came up with yourself.

The choice is clear, you can persist with your point of view which is against the GFA or actually row back on your previous claims and respect the GFA.

James Brown

10-15 years

markodaly wrote: »

If you were true to your word, then you would drop your 'Irish by default' argument, as the GFA does not allude or state this.

This is something you just came up with yourself.

The choice is clear, you can persist with your point of view which is against the GFA or actually row back on your previous claims and respect the GFA.

Marko, It's all Ireland. What ever the current politics, Ulster is in Ireland. It's an Irish province partially in two jurisdictions, but both are in Ireland.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

If you were true to your word, then you would drop your 'Irish by default' argument, as the GFA does not allude or state this.

This is something you just came up with yourself.

The choice is clear, you can persist with your point of view which is against the GFA or actually row back on your previous claims and respect the GFA.

I came up with: if you are born on an island called Ireland you are Irish?

I think we are done here.

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Makes as much sense as someone from the north of Ireland identifying as not irish but northern irish, in the same way.


Partitionism was an invention of the British, before the partition act there was no such thing as "Northern Ireland".

I know you probably can't bring it across your lips, but I live in Northern Ireland. Every bit as much a country as the other 3 nations that make up the UK of NI & GB. My passport has Northern Ireland wrote on it. I would be interested to see the passport with eastern Ireland wrote on it.

To move forward, a good starting point would be for you to recognise NI