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Indeed 'creates' 600 jobs...

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24

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    #32
    MartyMcFly84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭MartyMcFly84


    If they can be done that easily outside Dublin though, it implies they could be done just as easily outside Ireland
    .

    You don't get 12.5% corporate tax rate outside of Ireland or anywhere else in the EU. That is the real reason all those companies are here.


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    #33
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,122 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    .
    You don't get 12.5% corporate tax rate outside of Ireland. That is the real reason all those companies are here.

    Amnt a corporation tax expert but I dont think that means all staff need to be in Ireland or evem the EU - only the hq and sales booking.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #34
    MartyMcFly84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭MartyMcFly84


    The millions and billions they save in taxes more than makes up for any salaries they have to pay here. Most of these tech companies are not Irish and do and bases/offices all over the world but run their HQ and EU bases through Ireland to take advantage of our tax rates.

    They need to show investment in Ireland however, to set up here and create jobs. They can't just open a tiny office and run everything through it. The EU needs to see that they are properly invested in Ireland and not just using us a tax heaven (which they pretty much are).


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    #35
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    My point is that the highly technical jobs can remain in Dublin where those salaries can provide a good standard of living for families, but the support and shared service roles do not, and could be done anywhere with a much high quality of living.

    Most major towns and cities Ireland have broad band, must have been quite a while since you last visited. Waterford has the largest Greenway in the country, perhaps larger offices are needed.

    Such support or sales jobs are servicing the entire EU and are largely multilingual. You won't find many Portuguese, Swedish or Italian speakers in Waterford; and younger European millennials on their equivalent of Irish Australia jaunts want to live in a large enough city not in Athlone or Letterkenny.


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    #36
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,122 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    The millions and billions they save in taxes more than makes up for any salaries they have to pay here. Most of these tech companies are not Irish and do and bases/offices all over the world but run their HQ and EU bases through Ireland to take advantage of our tax rates.

    Couldnt you say the same thing about the salary or rent differences for Dublin or Cork v rest of Ireland?

    If they could pack 250 of the jobs off to Athlone that would still leave a base in Dublin. And if in Athlone why not in Kracow or Idaho or Lisbon.

    A lot of these companies make great play of all staff being part of the same culture. Maybe its nonsense. But it seems to be one of the factors in why they want the hub oriented and internal support staff in same office.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #37
    d15ude
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭d15ude


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    However my point is most of these jobs in Amazon and Indeed will be support type jobs, not earning the same salaries as Software Engineers or UX designers. My point is that the highly technical jobs can remain in Dublin where those salaries can provide a good standard of living for families
    .

    Most of these jobs are for younger professionals from all over Europe.
    They want to be in a lively big city and close to an international airport.
    They don't want to buy houses in Waterford.
    Inside sales Jobs in Indeed will get you 90k, you can survive on that in Dublin.


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    #38
    MartyMcFly84
    Registered Users Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭MartyMcFly84


    Most of these jobs are for younger professionals from all over Europe.
    They want to be in a lively big city and close to an international airport.
    They don't want to buy houses in Waterford.
    Inside sales Jobs in Indeed will get you 90k, you can survive on that in Dublin.

    I dont think the majority of the jobs will be close to 90k. Some certainly will but no way most.

    My thoughts are where are these 600 people going to live? Maybe not these particular jobs but in General something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the Dublin housing crisis, and as you can tell my opinion would be to encourage more job creation in other parts.

    Do you not see any issue, or do you think its fine that most of the job creation continues to be around Dublin and are not worried about the knock on effect?


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    #39
    helimachoptor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,658 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    I dont think the majority of the jobs will be close to 90k. Some certainly will but no way most.

    My thoughts are where are these 600 people going to live? Maybe not these particular jobs but in General something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the Dublin housing crisis, and as you can tell my opinion would be to encourage more job creation in other parts.

    Do you not see any issue, or do you think its fine that most of the job creation continues to be around Dublin and are not worried about the knock on effect?

    Indeed sales exec hitting (very reasonable) targets will be earning circa €90K
    45K base + 45K commision, its likely that base will be move up to 50-55K this year so a sales exec purely down to the B2B SaaS sales exec staff merrygo round.


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    #40
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,122 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    I dont think the majority of the jobs will be close to 90k. Some certainly will but no way most.

    My thoughts are where are these 600 people going to live? Maybe not these particular jobs but in General something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the Dublin housing crisis, and as you can tell my opinion would be to encourage more job creation in other parts.

    Do you not see any issue, or do you think its fine that most of the job creation continues to be around Dublin and are not worried about the knock on effect?

    Not disagreeing with your concerns on the concentration but there are reasons for it. Dublin needs an elected mayor with a budget who can respond to the problems of success. And other citied need directly elected mayors who can promote their regions.

    I dont think the solution will come from trying to decentralise Indeed who choose to locate in this country from a choice of many - when the government struggles to decentralise itself.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #41
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    My thoughts are where are these 600 people going to live? Maybe not these particular jobs but in General something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the Dublin housing crisis, and as you can tell my opinion would be to encourage more job creation in other parts.
    The IDA would be more than happy for Indeed (or whoever) to move to some other area, but these types of firms generally don't want to. It's a choice of Dublin or somewhere like Holland.

    There is no housing crisis in Dublin that can't be fixed by building taller in the city centre. It's NIMBYism and objections that are preventing builds from going ahead. The large number of young, well educated and well paid immigrants who we will attract to fill many of these jobs will be more than happy to live in a city centre apartment.


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    #42
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,640 ✭✭✭Nermal


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    All it serves to to put stress on those working in those jobs and more stress on the already insufficient housing in Dublin, and insufficient infrastructure.

    So build the housing, build the infrastructure. Fund it from Dublin's property tax, instead of spending it on Leitrim.


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    #43
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭markpb


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    Maybe not these particular jobs but in General something needs to be done to ease the pressure on the Dublin housing crisis, and as you can tell my opinion would be to encourage more job creation in other parts.

    The government has spent many years encouraging companies to invest in the rest of the country and it hasn't worked. The IDA has spent millions building offices and warehouses and providing incentives for companies. There are (or have been) millions more available in grants for companies to setup along the border and in the west of Ireland. At some stage, we need to realise that it's unlikely (but certainly not impossible) that a large multi-national is going to invest in Waterford, especially if it's the first in it's industry to go there.

    What is more likely to happen and, what is far more likely to succeed, is for us to make it as easy as possible for people to start and grow small businesses. Those are the kind of businesses that are more likely to be distributed around the country because they'll be based in their locality.


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    #44
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    fryup wrote: »
    ^^^^^^^^^^^

    how much do they charge an employer to advertise a job?

    There's not going to be any straightforward answer to that. It depends on a lot of things, the client size, the level of support they're getting, the prominence of their ads, etc.

    This "where will they live" stuff isn't a real concern any more so than it was before this announcement. They're hiring 120 people per year, it's a drop in the ocean. I guarantee that Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Amazon and Microsoft are hiring above that rate in Dublin but they just don't have press releases for it. Google are buying up everything around Macken St, Facebook are moving into Bank Centre, Amazon taking a huge office on Charlemont St, LinkedIn trying to build a campus around Wilton Terrace, etc.

    And when it comes to the amount of travel these people do, visiting clients or attracting people from outside Ireland, being in Waterford or Sligo just does not make sense.


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    #45
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/we-cant-force-foreign-firms-to-locate-to-rural-areas-ida-29930832.html

    Are their any reports showing how how much funding is allocated outside of Dublin?


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    #46
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    MartyMcFly84 wrote: »
    The other side of the tech cluster is hyper inflated salaries and difficulties retaining staff. Part of the reason for the high prices in Dublin is because there are so many highly paid skilled tech workers.

    However my point is most of these jobs in Amazon and Indeed will be support type jobs, not earning the same salaries as Software Engineers or UX designers. My point is that the highly technical jobs can remain in Dublin where those salaries can provide a good standard of living for families, but the support and shared service roles do not, and could be done anywhere with a much high quality of living.

    Most major towns and cities Ireland have broad band, must have been quite a while since you last visited. Waterford has the largest Greenway in the country, perhaps larger offices are needed.

    Sales, support and shared services generally require multilingual staff as they are EMEA not Ireland-focused. Like it or not, it will be difficult to build scale in multilingual skills outside Dublin. It’s hard for these to be organised in satellite office as co-location makes it easier to keep cobsistency. The alternative is the jobs not being in Ireland. Mini centres can work in Cork, Galway, Limerick etc but if you are Indeed and you know there is a recruitment base from the existing tech companies with similar ops, you establish in the same locale and seed your operation with hires from those other companies.


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    #47
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Marcusm wrote: »
    ...it will be difficult to build scale in multilingual skills outside Dublin. ...

    Is be surprised if that's true anymore. Lots of immigrants are multilingual. They are scattered all over the country.


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    #48
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,359 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    beauf wrote: »
    Is be surprised if that's true anymore. Lots of immigrants are multilingual. They are scattered all over the country.

    They need to be multilingual, be able to do the job need work and be in the right town. It’s not enough to have some people who speak Portuguese and Spanish living in a town.


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    #49
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The right town seems to Dublin. No other choices apparently. Well your workforce can't afford to live there...


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    #50
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,359 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    beauf wrote: »
    The right town seems to Dublin. No other choices apparently. Well your workforce can't afford to live there...

    It’s not that are no other choices but a business has to look at a lot of things when they open an office or expand. They need people with the right qualifications, experience or abilities. If they feel they could get them elsewhere they would go because to run it elsewhere in Ireland would be cheaper. I really can’t think anyone is surprised at this. If the workforce can’t afford to live in Dublin then they won’t get the staff but I’m sure these companies are getting the staff so it follows that they can afford it.


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    #51
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    beauf wrote: »
    The right town seems to Dublin. No other choices apparently. Well your workforce can't afford to live there...

    Who says the Indeed workforce can't afford to live in Dublin?

    Not only that, but a lot of this 600 could well live in Dublin already.


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    #52
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,325 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    beauf wrote: »
    The right town seems to Dublin. No other choices apparently. Well your workforce can't afford to live there...

    The reality is that a significant cohort of 22-30 year old European recent graduates have been willing to relocate to Dublin to fill these positions. I recall hearing 5 or so years ago that Dutch and Finnish skills were not easily obtained. The reality is that you need a centre capable of attracting reasonable numbers if recent graduates in 7-12 language groups. This is difficult. It would have been next to impossible in London at these salary levels. Barcelona and Berlin are competing locations. It’s a niche sub-sector but one which has significant roots in Dublin.


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    #53
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,806 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Dublin is, for whatever reason, seen as one of the cooler cities in Europe to live in/work in/visit. Waterford, Sligo, Galway etc are not.

    Cork pokes its head on to some of the lists of places-to-go but has the same problems as Dublin and then some; as well as one patchy air service to a secondary airport in North America and no connecting flights without backtracking. Still gets some tech firms but more often than not long established ones these days; and possibly less reliant on language skills.


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    #54
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,359 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    L1011 wrote: »
    Dublin is, for whatever reason, seen as one of the cooler cities in Europe to live in/work in/visit. Waterford, Sligo, Galway etc are not.

    Cork pokes its head on to some of the lists of places-to-go but has the same problems as Dublin and then some; as well as one patchy air service to a secondary airport in North America and no connecting flights without backtracking. Still gets some tech firms but more often than not long established ones these days; and possibly less reliant on language skills.

    There are reasons why cork has the same issues Dublin has, these are the places that companies and people want to be.


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    #55
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The Govt has centralised lots of services and economic activity on Dublin for a very long time now like decades.

    They were doing it before the all these workers and companies arrived. We've had a few booms and busts along the way. But every time it starts up again is even more Dublin centric.


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    #56
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Marcusm wrote: »
    beauf wrote: »
    The right town seems to Dublin. No other choices apparently. Well your workforce can't afford to live there...

    The reality is that a significant cohort of 22-30 year old European recent graduates have been willing to relocate to Dublin to fill these positions. I recall hearing 5 or so years ago that Dutch and Finnish skills were not easily obtained. The reality is that you need a centre capable of attracting reasonable numbers if recent graduates in 7-12 language groups. This is difficult. It would have been next to impossible in London at these salary levels. Barcelona and Berlin are competing locations. It’s a niche sub-sector but one which has significant roots in Dublin.

    One person says the companies come because the skill pool is here. The next person says the skill pool moves here to follow the companies. Chicken and egg.

    The skill pool has moved here. Which means its following the companies.

    Most people here don't seem to remember times when lots of multi nationals left Ireland. They didn't stay for the skill pool then. They moved to wherever was financially advantageous at the time.

    It doesn't just happen. Things like UL, Plassey, Shannon.

    https://www.clareecho.ie/shannon-set-the-example-for-chinas-economic-development/

    We seem to forgotten the past


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    #57
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,122 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    beauf wrote: »
    One person says the companies come because the skill pool is here. The next person says the skill pool moves here to follow the companies. Chicken and egg.
    The skill pool has moved here. Which means its following the companies.

    Not quite. The companies are setting up in places the skill pool are happy to locate *to*, and which already has a large pool both of employees and of customers. These are companies and employees which have a choice between major cities across Europe.

    It doesn't mean that if you put the company in the middle of nowhere, or a regional capital, anyone will follow it down.

    The Shannon example related to industrial development, it is not the same situation at all to a digital hub company like Indeed, or Google, or Facebook.
    What large European skill pool of talent flocked to Shannon for example, or was needed by those industrial multi-nationals to resource their operations?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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    #58
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,359 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Nobody has forgotten the past, saying some multinationals left doesn’t mean they should be set up outside Dublin. Those are two different things.


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    #59
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    ...
    The Shannon example related to industrial development, it is not the same situation at all to a digital hub company like Indeed, or Google, or Facebook.
    What large European skill pool of talent flocked to Shannon for example, or was needed by those industrial multi-nationals to resource their operations?

    There are multilingual jobs in Shannon on indeed today. There are multilingual jobs all over the country. They aren't all in Dublin. They aren't all industrial. Jaguar Land Rover are in Shannon and tech and research center there.

    There is a closed mindset everything has to be in Dublin.


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    #60
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    It's not a closed mindset, it's simply reality.

    Jobs go where the people are. People go where the jobs are. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.

    Over 100,000 people live in the city centre, and over 200,000 people travel into the city centre each morning. Nowhere else has that pool of potential employees.


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    #61
    odyssey06
    Registered Users Posts: 30,122 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    beauf wrote: »
    There are multilingual jobs in Shannon on indeed today. There are multilingual jobs all over the country. They aren't all in Dublin. They aren't all industrial. Jaguar Land Rover are in Shannon and tech and research center there.

    There is a closed mindset everything has to be in Dublin.

    Then why arent Indeed going there? Or Google or Facebook or Workday? Jaguar is nothing like Indeed. Totally different operation.
    If there are jobs all over the country then whats the fuss about Indeeds 600?

    Its the mindset of the tech companies that is key... nothing to do with mindset of boards posters. They would have all the same tax and IDA support in Shannon as Dublin wouldnt they? So why did they pixk Dublin?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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