Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

Wibbs

Ebay has a few, but standard basic Natos The Monkeyswag ones are nice enough quality. Better than the basic sort anyway. I've had a couple.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Wibbs wrote: »

Ebay has a few, but standard basic Natos The Monkeyswag ones are nice enough quality. Better than the basic sort anyway. I've had a couple.

Thanks. I mention Tudor as the ones I've seen mentioned as "Tudor-style" seem to have a different look to them than standard Nato's; they seem thicker / different fabric pattern.

It's most likely in my head, and makes no difference at all.

Wibbs

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Thanks. I mention Tudor as the ones I've seen mentioned as "Tudor-style" seem to have a different look to them than standard Nato's; they seem thicker / different fabric pattern.

It's most likely in my head, and makes no difference at all.

Ah no I know the type you mention. Closer weave, shinier. There were copies of the Omega/Tudor style out there, but haven't seen them in a while. I think it's because we hit peak NATO strap a few years back and they're not as popular these days so lower demand.

Wibbs

Fitz II wrote: »

Fake sure, they are a pain in the ass, but that people are willing to spend money to pretend to be an owner is also a backhanded complement and further enhances the intangible benefits of having the real deal. Bless their hearts. What fakes are doing is making the real deal more expensive, cause you have to go new, trusted dealer and pay the premiums

Well that's what the industry hopes will continue, but the more "it's could be/probably a fake" hits the mainstream - and it has considering the recent flood of how to spot fakes and how "good" they are getting", it is - this will hurt brands and the industry. Especially as those premiums rise.

Of course the industry is full of sh1t...its selling luxury and ornaments that serve no purpose except to pose. And before you come in Wibbs vintage is the biggest shower of posers out there. I am OK with that, I like that game and when you get down with that this becomes a lot of fun.

The poser/fashion factor has become significantly more in play over the last few years and it's all too easy to project that onto the wider buying market, or even why others are into watches, or what purpose they serve people. For you they may be ornaments that serve no purpose except to pose, but is not close to being a universal thing, it's a particular trend that was always there to some degree, but has grown significantly over the last ten years, and indeed yes including the vintage market post Hodinke .

The pose factor is pretty much down to Rolex and Patek to a lesser degree. The rest have feck all recognition among most people out there. Rolex, Casio, Seiko, Omega to some degree would be your lot(in the past TAG, Breitling and IWC might have been in the mix). Vanishingly few would know AP or VC. Bloggers and Tubers are getting more men into such things but it's a recent thing. That bloke on youtube who didn't notice his expensive bracelet wasn't running after a drunken golf outing for the three days he was wearing it would have been roasted in the comments for that a few years back. It's very much a trend and fashion of the moment and trends and fashions have a habit of changing and the more rapid a rise, the more likely. Doubly so if the costs of engaging in such and arms race keep going upwards.

Now there has been talk of a "bubble" forming, especially with Rolex and that segment does have some commonalities with bubbles; fast rising valuations in the secondary market, a perception of rarity driven by the market and the brand, new buyers coming in in droves, buyers becoming more speculative about current/future values and flipping on that basis(and dealers being evangelical about "investments"), a feeling that this trend will always go up and always has(it might not and it hasn't) and everybody and his dog becoming aware of the market.

I personally don't think there'll be a crash, more of a resetting of the market as the fashion moves on.

Cyclingtourist

Teddy Baldassarre did a video a week or so ago on the reactions of the younger generation to watches/brands.

Okay it's selective but probably fairly accurate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gaiFsgeO1k

Edit: BTW the girl who knows all the luxury brands is Teddy's OH, she has her own channel that's about women's style (I think).

Wibbs

The Blancpain isn't getting much love. The originals are far more balanced looking, less I dunno Eurotrash with cash or something. The brand engraved on the side is just tacky in my humble and they do look like a cheap watch in the flesh. Too shiny or something. The vintage Daytona... I can sort of see why they didn't sell very well back then. If you compare it to competitors at the time it is kinda bland as feck. The ones post 1990 down to today are much more interesting to just look at. "Douchebag Flex" The Lange got a fair few thumbs up. It's interesting that for a few of the non watch people it was the cheapest part, the strap that let a watch down. Plus without knowing the brands and just going by the look and feel in the hand some really cheap watches were seen as better than or the same as much more expensive watches. An Orient and a Tudor confused one guy who reckoned they were close in value and couldn't make up his mind which was the more expensive.

I've kinda seen similar with non watch people who commented on watches I've worn. Comments are rare, but when they come it's not for the expected watches and there's been a definite gender diff in comments.

Cyclingtourist

By coincidence one of my favourite YTers Tim at 'Case back watches' today has a review of the Vostok Amphibia Classics 170548 & 49.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zTRTXEWtrc

Cienciano

The 2 part caseback is so the gasket isn't damaged when you take it on and off. Just learned that one on youtube yesterday

Fitz II

So tried on my friends Navitimer. Just cant figure out these watches, they are massive but dont wear too bad at all, the dial is the fussiest thing of all time but its somehow pretty. What are peoples thoughts on Navitimers? They are fairly expensive too

893bet

I have a soft spot for them. A navitimer was the first good watch that really caught my eye. Had a lot of lust for Breitling in general at that time. Ended up with a Colt instead as a first “good” watch and never got a Navitimer......

Wibbs

Long history with the model, back to the late 40's IIRC and for a time used the same Valjoux movement as the Daytona. Cool slide rule dial for help with navigation. A couple even went up with the Mercury pilots in the early days of Apollo. Breitling used to be much more on the radar and Navitimers were very popular, but for some reason of late seemed to have dropped off the map when people discuss this kinda pricepoint? Fashion I suppose. The dials seem to get an either/or reaction, love or hate.

Cienciano

I suppose some like the history and some think the dial is too busy.

Creamy Goodness

Sort of random question but is there anywhere in Ireland that would consider renting watches? I have a friend who’s quite conservative with his money and would love to buy a nice dress watch (like JLC ultra thin/Patek Calatrava as two examples he’s mentioned) but would really like to wear it for a weekend/week to really know if he wanted to buy outright.

I have a feeling the answer is no or there’s zero market for it but just thought I’d have a quick check here.

unkel

Lenny on the Zenith

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDrprFRqwzM

Cyclingtourist

Lenny the musical.

Time

Fitz II wrote: »

So tried on my friends Navitimer. Just cant figure out these watches, they are massive but dont wear too bad at all, the dial is the funniest thing of all time but its somehow pretty. What are peoples thoughts on Navitimers? They are fairly expensive too

I think they're a classic piece along the lines of a sub or a speedmaster in that they're quintessential icons of their brand, and recognisable to anyone with even a passing interest in watches. The dials are very busy, but it has a certain elegance to them which is really noticeable when you compare them to something like the citizen nighthawk. I find they wear too high off the wrist though personally.

Cyrus

Fitz II wrote: »

So tried on my friends Navitimer. Just cant figure out these watches, they are massive but dont wear too bad at all, the dial is the fussiest thing of all time but its somehow pretty. What are peoples thoughts on Navitimers? They are fairly expensive too

I have had a few, the b01 navi in 43mm is a wearable , very well made iconic watch imo

I kept mine for a year I think but that said I’ve no urge to buy another

Fitz II

All this Zenith bullsh1t on the internet is funny. People are loosing their minds. I like the zenith, I would buy one. Yes it similar to a daytona but its not a hommage. However I see the point that it not a substitute for a daytona if thats you goal. I dont get the fuss over people not likening it,, hell people give out yards about daytonas too.

Yeah Time, I kinda like the Navitimer, it is a classic. But it is huge and Breitling as a brand has no resonance for me personally.

unkel

I like the Zenith too, looks funkier and sportier than the Daytona. Chronos are not for me though.

Cyclingtourist

Fitz II wrote: »

All this Zenith bullsh1t on the internet is funny. People are loosing their minds. I like the zenith, I would buy one. Yes it similar to a daytona but its not a hommage. However I see the point that it not a substitute for a daytona if thats you goal. I dont get the fuss over people not likening it,, hell people give out yards about daytonas too.

It's too expensive to be a 'homage'.

unkel

I don't really see it as a homage. More a wink to his younger, more successful brother who has worked harder all his life but now looks older

IrishPlayer

A very cool WWII Thiel Alarm pocket watch [Link] posted by Mr Hiroshi HIRAI HH Alam_Fan , very knowledgeable about anything related to alarm watches.

Also just catching up on the latest Mail Call by Spencer Klein, he showed the same rare poster of a watch movement that Damian Duggan showed during the watchmaking presentation 🙂

Wibbs

I think the Zenith is a nice looking watch myself. More balanced in some ways to the Daytona and has a good history back to one of the first auto chronographs in 1969, though personally I find the new one a nicer design than the vintage(nice change for me ). Zenith produced some very nice chronos before that too, first by buying in Martel movements and then buying the company itself to make them "in house"(Universal and a couple of others also used those movements).

Most Swiss houses avoided making chronos in house as they were an expensive prospect and it seems their expense and lack of utility/popularity among buyers up to around the 50/60's meant they outsourced to others, Martel, Valjoux. There were the cheaper cam operated movements too. About the only main Swiss brands who bothered with the complication were Longines, Omega and Breitling, particularly Longines as they were a halo range for them from early on and they were the first to produce a wrist specific chronograph movement. Outside Switzerland of course Seiko were in house too and brought a few innovations to the chronograph. Sometimes you read people saying oh well Rolex didn't make in house chronographs until recently and yep that's true, but neither did Heuer, or Patek or Breguet and AP and VC also bought in movements and IIRC JLC did similar. Heuer were obviously a chronograph watch company as a thing and made them popular, but even so the same Heuer flirted with insolvency from time to time. The Rolex Daytona famously sold in tiny numbers when it came out and price discounts were common. Most other brands produced them in small numbers because they don't seem to have been very popular among buyers. I suspect myself that maybe one reason was because until 69 they couldn't be had as automatics, so outside of the very early days when everything was hand wound and chronos were popular enough and niche market segments like pilots, they didn't really take off until they were also automatics(with the notable exception of the Omega Speedmaster. Though Apollo really helped there*). Rolex Daytonas started to shift in decent numbers in the 90's when they too went automatic with the Zenith movement.

Then again it's relatively recently, like the last couple of decades were "In house" meant anything to 99% of buyers or indeed brands. Hell in the very early days of the man's wristwatch in many markets it was more common to find the retailers name on the dial, the importers name on the case and any number of usually unbranded Swiss movements driving them.





*consider the NASA tests. Only four manufacturers came back to them, one was immediately discounted, the other two, Wittnauer and Rolex both used the same Valjoux movement and the Speedy, the "in house" movement won out. Now granted the call by NASA went out to US distributors(hence it was a Wittnauer, rather than a Longines) rather than the brand HQ's so there was a narrowing there, but these days NASA would have a gazillion more choices in the mix.

redlead

The Navitimer is a classic, not as much as subs or speedies but not far off. They're one of the few really original designs out there that you just know what it is straight off. Sinn actually bought the rights to make them back when Breitling were in trouble and so you can get close to identical ones made by them for a good bit lesser money. Of course I doubt the finishing would be as good and the B01 movement is arguably the best chrono movement out there according to people in the know. The dial is fussy but its fussy for a reason unlike some other Breitlings. Its a true tool watch. I'd probably buy a Chronomat B01 over one but I wouldn't rule it out.

Wibbs

redlead wrote: »

Sinn actually bought the rights to make them back when Breitling were in trouble and so you can get close to identical ones made by them for a good bit lesser money. Of course I doubt the finishing would be as good

I's suspect the Sinn might actually be better bolted together, not necessarily more polished, but better overall. Breitling were in real trouble at that stage and corners were cut on watches from that period, while Sinn were trying to make a name for themselves.

redlead

Wibbs wrote: »

I's suspect the Sinn might actually be better bolted together, not necessarily more polished, but better overall. Breitling were in real trouble at that stage and corners were cut on watches from that period, while Sinn were trying to make a name for themselves.

I'm talking more about modern ones but either way you can get the Sinn new for 3k. That's very good value compared to 5.5/6k the Breitling costs. I'd still be surprised if the quality was the same if both were in the hand though. Point taken on older ones, I don't have any experience there.

banie01

Not quite chronos, but I have a Breitling and a Sinn diver.
The Sinn is far better in the hand tbh.

Sinn build and sell direct too, the person who builds your watch sometimes even leaves a note in your box.
Sinn in Frankfurt offer a factory trip that when Covid is over I'd love to visit.

Breitling's are great, the navitimer is an icon and from an aviation standpoint has a lot of heritage.
I couldn't countenance double the price for the same watch tho.

Cyrus

banie01 wrote: »

Not quite chronos, but I have a Breitling and a Sinn diver.
The Sinn is far better in the hand tbh.

Sinn build and sell direct too, the person who builds your watch sometimes even leaves a note in your box.
Sinn in Frankfurt offer a factory trip that when Covid is over I'd love to visit.

Breitling's are great, the navitimer is an icon and from an aviation standpoint has a lot of heritage.
I couldn't countenance double the price for the same watch tho.

I guess with the Breitling you are paying for an in house movement and brand recognition, but it’s a hefty increase

banie01

Cyrus wrote: »

I guess with the Breitling you are paying for an in house movement and brand recognition, but it’s a hefty increase

The B01 is in-house alright I think, but fairly sure the "classic" navitimer is 7750 based.

Cyrus

The b01 is the classic now as in you can’t buy a new 7750 based navi, but buying used yes you would be comparing a Sinn 7750 and a breitling with the same movement not sure what the price diff is though.