Who Watches the Watchmen (Our Chit Chat Thread)

Wibbs

Hublot are yet another brand that massively benefited from Jean-Claude Biver being at the helm - quadrupled their sales, ditto for Omega - tripled their sales, Blancpain - damn near restarted the Swiss mechanical revival in the early 80's with that dead off the shelf company(IIRC he bought the name for something like 10 grand and flogged it for 50 million) and TAG and others. He's a marketing genius that even Hans Wilsdorf would be impressed by. He aimed Hublot squarely at younger generations. He knows well that the majority of the heavy duty buyers of luxury Swiss watches with the largest markups are middle aged and so are their tastes for the most part and if you don't replace them with an upcoming generation the industry's in trouble. Add in smart watches and... Even if only the rich celeb younger generation can afford them they get interest in the market. And it worked at Hublot. Of the handful of Swiss brands that didn't take as big of a hit in the downturn a few years back Hublot was the least affected(with brands like Rolex and Patek who knows what hit they took or didn't as they say nada).

I've a feeling Hublot get static from some quarters(mostly dealers) because yes they are overpriced while being modish and it shines too strong a light at other brands that are similarly overpriced while being conservative. These are very much fashion brands selling the image de jour. All of them. And they can suffer from the vagaries and short attention spans inherent in that. Panerai were mad popular a few years back, now you don't see them nearly as often. TAG Heuer were the entry level "luxury" watch for nearly a decade and have certainly slipped from that pedestal. IWC another that suffered a similar fate. Breitling another. Now they're all cracking along still thanks very much but not near their peak interest.

Thirdfox

Wibbs wrote: »

Hublot are yet another brand that massively benefited from Jean-Claude Biver being at the helm - quadrupled their sales, ditto for Omega - tripled their sales, Blancpain - damn near restarted the Swiss mechanical revival in the early 80's with that dead off the shelf company(IIRC he bought the name for something like 10 grand and flogged it for 50 million) and TAG and others. He's a marketing genius that even Hans Wilsdorf would be impressed by. He aimed Hublot squarely at younger generations. He knows well that the majority of the heavy duty buyers of luxury Swiss watches with the largest markups are middle aged and so are their tastes for the most part and if you don't replace them with an upcoming generation the industry's in trouble. Add in smart watches and... Even if only the rich celeb younger generation can afford them they get interest in the market. And it worked at Hublot. Of the handful of Swiss brands that didn't take as big of a hit in the downturn a few years back Hublot was the least affected(with brands like Rolex and Patek who knows what hit they took or didn't as they say nada).

I've a feeling Hublot get static from some quarters(mostly dealers) because yes they are overpriced while being modish and it shines too strong a light at other brands that are similarly overpriced while being conservative. These are very much fashion brands selling the image de jour. All of them. And they can suffer from the vagaries and short attention spans inherent in that. Panerai were mad popular a few years back, now you don't see them nearly as often. TAG Heuer were the entry level "luxury" watch for nearly a decade and have certainly slipped from that pedestal. IWC another that suffered a similar fate. Breitling another. Now they're all cracking along still thanks very much but not near their peak interest.

You'll have to bring out the "types of watch collector graph" again

I think on the lower end of "luxury" like the Tags etc. people are asking "what are we paying for? Technical specs? Sure you can get a 7750 in a Steinhart, ceramic, sapphire, etc. etc. from smaller/less expensive brands. It's a tough squeeze on them certainly - maybe further amalgamations like in the car industry is needed? Tag Heuer Oris etc?

You also see the pressure resulting in new innovations - the Oris new in-house calibre with better power reserve etc.

When everyone can get access to a 2824 (or Sellita equivalent) it makes "Swiss made" pretty *cheap*.

Hence the awesome Moser "Swiss Mad" watch which is made from Swiss cheese (since the Swiss have no gold/steel/silver mining natively):
https://monochrome-watches.com/h-moser-cie-launches-swiss-mad-watch-swiss-watch-ever-swiss-cheese-case-yes-venturer-swiss-mad/

Moser have definitely risen in my eyes with their trolling on the Swiss Mad and Alp (apple) watch models - not afraid to confront the possibility that the emperor is indeed naked...

Who knows - maybe Bvlgari and the "luxury" fashion watches will take over (at least from some of the mid level Swiss watch brands that exist now). I can't see myself getting a Ralph Lauren minute repeater when the day comes to decide how to fulfil a grail ambition of mine :
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ralph-lauren-minute-repeater-hands-on

When it's luxury it's not about price of gold, leather, finishing even - I wouldn't buy a Hublot (there'd be other watches that come ahead) - but I'm not the target audience - I'm waaaay too "poor" (and uncool) for their target clientele. The Christiano Ronaldos and McGregors are the people who they are targetting I imagine - and cost isn't really a factor, accuracy isn't a factor, but rather if their mates will be impressed and their mates are impressed by a Hublot, just like my watch mates are impressed by what a Vostok offers or say a 60s Atmos

Wibbs

Thirdfox wrote: »

It's a tough squeeze on them certainly - maybe further amalgamations like in the car industry is needed? Tag Heuer Oris etc?

Though it was vital to the revival of the Swiss mechanical watch industry I think the amalgamations like LMVH and Swatch are a big part of the problem. When brands were independent there was more competition, innovation and prices were significantly keener. If you wanted a dive watch or a chronograph or a dress watch in say 1960 or 70, the "good watches" were all around the same price regardless of the brand. They had to be as they were competing for the same customer. When I say good watches I mean above basic gold plated Rotaries and the like and below Patek and the like(which vanishingly few had even heard about never mind were buying). Though the buying landscape has changed so much I'm not sure if the Swiss or the market could ever go back to that.

You also see the pressure resulting in new innovations - the Oris new in-house calibre with better power reserve etc.

I dunno TF I'm not sure innovations make much of a difference except to a small minority. Even within the hardcore watch buyers of today it's a minority thing. Look at the most sought out, desirable brands and models out there. They're all about as innovative as a housebrick. The majority of the brands bread and butter sales are extremely traditional and conservative. Hublot to be fair aren't like that and why they're selling, though being fashionable doesn't tend to last too long.

When everyone can get access to a 2824 (or Sellita equivalent) it makes "Swiss made" pretty *cheap*.

Hence the awesome Moser "Swiss Mad" watch which is made from Swiss cheese (since the Swiss have no gold/steel/silver mining natively):
https://monochrome-watches.com/h-moser-cie-launches-swiss-mad-watch-swiss-watch-ever-swiss-cheese-case-yes-venturer-swiss-mad/

Moser have definitely risen in my eyes with their trolling on the Swiss Mad and Alp (apple) watch models - not afraid to confront the possibility that the emperor is indeed naked...

I thought that was brilliant.

Who knows - maybe Bvlgari and the "luxury" fashion watches will take over (at least from some of the mid level Swiss watch brands that exist now). I can't see myself getting a Ralph Lauren minute repeater when the day comes to decide how to fulfil a grail ambition of mine :
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ralph-lauren-minute-repeater-hands-on

Well Montblanc a pen maker are flogging expensive luxury watches with almost zero history to the brand. Then again as Biver showed with Blancpain, all you need is a name and marketing rather than "authentic history" for the vast majority of buyers. Breguet the same.

Eoin

If you drop 30K on a watch that's taking the piss out of an Apple Watch - Apple isn't the one being trolled.

Time

Wibbs wrote: »

Then again as Biver showed with Blancpain, all you need is a name and marketing rather than "authentic history" for the vast majority of buyers. Breguet the same.

Blancpain still manufacture for other high end brands though i believe. F Piguet was folded into Bllancpain and still do some stuff for AP and VC from what i remember.

Wibbs

To be fair to BP they have had pretty much all of their innovations in watchmaking since the quartz crisis, they had almost none before it.

James Bond Junior

As I've mentioned before, I have an affinity for fountain pens and my Mont Blanc Meisterstuck is my daily work horse. I am just finished 4 hours of interviews and used it for note taking the whole way through and it was flawless as always. BUT Mont Blanc is a pen maker. I wouldn't be pushed on buying one of their watches as they aren't a watch maker. I've a MB notebook which I got as a gift but that's where I draw the line. Similarly I quite like Hugo Boss for clothes but I wouldn't buy a HB watch nor Gucci or Prada or any other luxury brand as they are fashion designers, not watchmakers. I couldn't spend €500+ on a watch knowing it was probably made in a generic Chinese factory under license to use the branding.

Fitz II

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I've a MB notebook which I got as a gift but that's where I draw the line.

Good one :pac::pac::pac:

Thirdfox

Wibbs wrote: »

Though it was vital to the revival of the Swiss mechanical watch industry I think the amalgamations like LMVH and Swatch are a big part of the problem. When brands were independent there was more competition, innovation and prices were significantly keener. If you wanted a dive watch or a chronograph or a dress watch in say 1960 or 70, the "good watches" were all around the same price regardless of the brand. They had to be as they were competing for the same customer. When I say good watches I mean above basic gold plated Rotaries and the like and below Patek and the like(which vanishingly few had even heard about never mind were buying). Though the buying landscape has changed so much I'm not sure if the Swiss or the market could ever go back to that.

I think that's where the pressure from microbrands will come from - currently I see it as:
1. Chinese factory homage brands (when you just want to get something that's like the luxury watches for 1/10th the price)

2. Microbrands - when you want something above pure homage and may have that 7750, 2892, Batman GMTs etc. from a "brand" per se with support and value, just not rock bottom prices like the Merkur/Heimdallr/Phoibos etc.

3. Swiss basic luxury - the Oris and Longines and the like - I don't know how the Midos are going to survive in the long term with the pressures that microbrands put on them.

4. Swiss luxury luxury - the Omegas and Rolexes of the world - know that they need to move up the price chain and are retreating from the 2k arena for watches as that's too close to the more expensive microbrands like Monta and others (I think it's going to be a pretty bloody fight in the 1k arena between micros and budget Swiss luxury - Hamilton, Tissot, etc.)

5. Swiss ultra luxury stuff - which has both the Hublots and Pateks of the world - they're not going to be influenced by the microbrands - but may face pressures from the Rolexes and Omegas in the future - when Daytonas are above the cost of a VC chrono there is definitely market overlap I guess.

I dunno TF I'm not sure innovations make much of a difference except to a small minority. Even within the hardcore watch buyers of today it's a minority thing. Look at the most sought out, desirable brands and models out there. They're all about as innovative as a housebrick. The majority of the brands bread and butter sales are extremely traditional and conservative. Hublot to be fair aren't like that and why they're selling, though being fashionable doesn't tend to last too long.

True - WIS and different aspects of watch buyers can all operate in their little bubbles... I remember seeing a post on WUS about how "Is it just me, but celebrity endorsements mean nothing to me???" - but that same person may have a favourite Youtube reviewer/Instagrammer vs. traditional advertising endorsement... Longines sell massively to Chinese women (and some men) which we don't see here - and this kind of endorsement works quite well in that market:
https://www.longines.com/universe/ambassadors/zhao-liying
https://www.longines.com/universe/ambassadors/chi-ling-lin
So important that they have two ambassadors for China...

So saying that - on the technical side I guess the people who might appreciate a tourbillon (or the difference between a flying tourbillon, coaxial tourbillon or karrousel) are probably a very small sub-set of "normal" watch buyers.

And I see it too - that the amount of people who actually refer to their watches for time keeping purposes is growing smaller - even in the last 10 years or so - so it's funny that many WIS talk about accuracy and so on when so many people don't actually use watches to tell time and rather they are more "wrist jewellery" - which isn't disparaging in my opinion - humans like beautiful things and I think we can generally agree that a Moser Alp watch is more "beautiful" than an Apple Watch.

Well Montblanc a pen maker are flogging expensive luxury watches with almost zero history to the brand. Then again as Biver showed with Blancpain, all you need is a name and marketing rather than "authentic history" for the vast majority of buyers. Breguet the same.

"Precious resin" - gets me every time. I do have a lovely MB pen (gifted to me) and can understand why they'd be reluctant to call plastic, plastic but yeah the power of marketing is strong...

Eoin wrote: »

If you drop 30K on a watch that's taking the piss out of an Apple Watch - Apple isn't the one being trolled.

I see it (and perhaps this is their marketing working on me) that they're making these pieces as a rich person's novelty (and for the Swiss Mad 1 million CHF watch, an ultra rich person's novelty) - but also it means that they know that if you need a time keeping device - your phone/smart watch can do that for you - but it's what's inside that counts for the Alp watch...or their other more affordable pieces.

It's made me more inclined to have a look at their entry range too - and maybe that means for the people who had never heard of Moser before etc. they may get a few more customers out of making this piece (as well as selling this piece at a profit too). Advertising not through endorsements, but through their products. Is this a better spend of an advertising budget than what Rolex/Omega/Blancpain do? Only they will know...

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair to BP they have had pretty much all of their innovations in watchmaking since the quartz crisis, they had almost none before it.

Have to admit that the grail I'm considering is a BP minute repeater - but that's because they seem to fall off a cliff in terms of cost come 2nd hand market...

Think around 70-90% drop in value from retail prices... we'll have to see - if grail comes first or I just build my own

That's end piece for me I think.

James Bond Junior

Fitz II wrote: »

Good one :pac::pac::pac:

Ha! I didn't even mean to pen that pun!

But a notebook is acceptable from a pen maker. I don't think I'd be bothered shelling out for a wallet or laptop bag.

On the precious resin/plastic front. I use the MB daily and it's normally clipped on a lanyard or in my shirt pocket so it's being well used. It has some light scratches but a polish would bring it up perfect again. I alternate with a metal Lamy Safari special edition and it's bar more bashed and bruised than the MB.

Wibbs

Many moons ago I had a Moser trench watch, made for the Russian market. Apparently they were big there, well before the glorious revolution anyway.

There are definitely areas of the market that watch enthusiasts miss alright. Like you note Longines and women's watches in Asia(though they've had a long historical presence in that neck of the woods). Over half of all their sales across the Far East are women's watches. Something that wouldn't even be on the radar of WIS. Their VHP Quartz line is a big seller too. I've even seen a couple "in the wild" in Ireland, but you'd rarely see or even hear of one on a watch forum. Back when TAG's were on a high and selling well they would have been regarded pretty sniffily by the WIS community. Unless the dial didn't have TAG on it(though I can tell you the non TAG Heuers aren't a patch on the build quality of the TAG stuff for the most part).

A few brands/models have crossover between WIS and normal people alright, so Omega Speedies and Rolex Subs would be examples of that.

Thirdfox

Not surprised that they were huge in Russia (before they went red) - here's a brief history of Moser from an Irish youtuber - the founder set up in Russia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yvi0cugWpU

Wibbs

Ahh. That would explain the bits of Cyrillic in the caseback on the one I had. The trench watches and pocketwatches used to show up a lot on ebay, not so much now.

Lorddrakul

There was a nice old Breitling on Antiques Roadshow this evening.

It was a two register chrono, with an inscription that dates it to 1949 in the US.

The model was Chronomat, the one with the slide rule.
It was in working order, but the dial had some damage.

Estimate was about £5,000, which sounded low.

Kintarō Hattori

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Casio-MDV106-1AV-Analog-Watch-Black/dp/B009KYJAJY

I've had one of these for years and over time it had a replacement strap. That strap needed replacing and so I ordered what I thought was a compatible strap from Barton. It arrived today and is too short to fit into the lug holes. I ordered a 20mm size but this doesn't fit.

What size should I be ordering?

Wibbs

It says that it takes a 20mm strap. Maybe the replacement strap is an 18 sent in error? I've had that happen before. To be sure measure the inside diameter of the lugs with a rule or better yet a vernier caliper if you have one.

Wibbs

Lorddrakul wrote: »

There was a nice old Breitling on Antiques Roadshow this evening.

It was a two register chrono, with an inscription that dates it to 1949 in the US.

The model was Chronomat, the one with the slide rule.
It was in working order, but the dial had some damage.

Estimate was about £5,000, which sounded low.

Antiques Roadshow have a history of being all over the place with valuations on watches(and other things). They tend to undervalue(the US version tends to overvalue), or aren't always clear is that auction values, dealers values, insurance values. In that case though I'd say 5000 sterling or around 6000 euro wouldn't be far wrong.

Breitling would be a niche enough interest in the vintage realm and never really took off in values the way chronos from brands like Heuer, Rolex and Omega have. Even though Breitling came up with the two pusher chronograph standard that everyone else copied. Then again Longines chronos are still with a few exceptions way down compared to the aforementioned brands and they were the first to make a wristwatch specific chronograph movement(and the flyback).

hitemfrank

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Casio-MDV106-1AV-Analog-Watch-Black/dp/B009KYJAJY

I've had one of these for years and over time it had a replacement strap. That strap needed replacing and so I ordered what I thought was a compatible strap from Barton. It arrived today and is too short to fit into the lug holes. I ordered a 20mm size but this doesn't fit.

What size should I be ordering?

I've a Barton strap fitted to my Duro so I can tell you when I get home this evening, if you don't find out before then.

Kintarō Hattori

Wibbs wrote: »

It says that it takes a 20mm strap. Maybe the replacement strap is an 18 sent in error? I've had that happen before. To be sure measure the inside diameter of the lugs with a rule or better yet a vernier caliper if you have one.

Thanks Wibbs. I don't have a caliper I'm afraid. The strap is printed up as 20mm but it's definitely a good bit shorter than what's there.

Ryath

The Duro has 22mm lug width, 20mm at clasp is the band width casio list for some strange reason.
https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/lug-width-of-casio-mdv106-1a-dive-watch.1294785/

Kintarō Hattori

Ryath wrote: »

The Duro has 22mm lug width, 20mm at clasp is the band width casio list for some strange reason.
https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/lug-width-of-casio-mdv106-1a-dive-watch.1294785/

I'll head off and order a 22mm so. Thank you sir. A new strap has been ordered.

Ryath

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

I'll head off and order a 22mm so. Thank you sir. A new strap has been ordered.

You'll have to buy another watch to fit the 20mm! :P

Kintarō Hattori

Ryath wrote: »

You'll have to buy another watch to fit the 20mm! :P

Ah I'm sure there's something in the collection that'll fit it. I'm holding off any new watches as I hadn't worn any over the last year or so. There didn't seem much point when I was mostly just around the house.

Trigger Happy

I need to get an extra hole put in a leather strap to help it fit my slimline wrists. With the retail jewelers closed I cant go in to one and get it done proper. Am too inpatient to order one from china and wait.
Any hints on how to make a hole without making a hames of it?!

Lorddrakul

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I need to get an extra hole put in a leather strap to help it fit my slimline wrists. With the retail jewelers closed I cant go in to one and get it done proper. Am too inpatient to order one from china and wait.
Any hints on how to make a hole without making a hames of it?!

Have you got a Swiss Army knife?


There is an an awl-like tool on many of them, beside the back mounted corkscrew, they refer to as a reamer/punch. If used like a hand drill, it leaves a pretty neat hole.

It is marked #9 in the pic.

Alternatively, if you have a fast drill, a 3mm drill bit will do a good job.

Anjobe

Lorddrakul wrote: »

Have you got a Swiss Army knife?

There is an an awl-like tool on many of them, beside the back mounted corkscrew, they refer to as a reamer/punch. If used like a hand drill, it leaves a pretty neat hole.

It is marked #9 in the pic.

Alternatively, if you have a fast drill, a 3mm drill bit will do a good job.

Or if you know someone who rides, they often have a leather punch for making extra holes in horse tack.

Trigger Happy

Anjobe wrote: »

Or if you know someone who rides, they often have a leather punch for making extra holes in horse tack.

Mmm, thats worth a shot as there is a person lives near me who is in to the riding.

micks_address

Hi folks,

The bracelet that came with my speedmaster is a little tight. I knew in advance and the seller gave me a discount to pick up a spare link. It’s a year 2000 speedmaster which I think is ref 1998 bracelet.

I’m trying to figure out the correct full and half link to purchase.

I don’t intend wearing it that often on the bracelet but I be nice to have the option

Would this be the correct half link? On the clasp there’s micro adjustments I can use to shorten so maybe a full link be better option?


https://m.ebay.ie/itm/Omega-Speedmaster-Full-Size-Stainless-Steel-Bracelet-Link-Part-No-114ST1998-/164259132140

This is the bracelet







Cheers,
Mick

Trigger Happy

Lorddrakul wrote: »

Have you got a Swiss Army knife?


Alternatively, if you have a fast drill, a 3mm drill bit will do a good job.

The 3mm drill did the job perfectly. A nice near job too.

46 Long

Very strange, rambling article from Cara Barrett in Hodinkee arguing for genderless watches and complaining that women are being excluded from the watch world. She seems to be bitter about the terrible reception for 'Talking Watches With Bethenny Frankel' - chalking it up to misogyny while conveniently ignoring the excellent 'My Watch Story' segments featuring female watch owners.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/all-watches-should-be-unisex-and-heres-why