"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

ckeng

Necro wrote: »

That's the number some were saying earlier alright but given they had wiped all before them up until Winterfell I'd reckon much bigger. Wouldn't put a figure on it though.

After all the dragons when they did get involved scorched huge parts of them and yet they just kept coming, piling over the fire and then creating huge pile ons to scale the walls in multiple locations.

Point is, even if the army was twice that size, with the way wights seem to operate it can't be both solid and miles wide.

jonsnow wrote: »

Yeah Brienne was commanding the left wing which was composed of the knights of the Vale (on foot) with Pod and Jamie as her lieutenants.

This makes it worse for me. They had heavy cavalry which they used as foot troops and light cavalry which they used as heavy cavalry.

mewso wrote: »

Not me. I just want it to make sense regardless of what I would prefer to happen. I didn't want Robb and Cat to die but it was fantastic writing and I had no problem accepting it eventually.

Same as. I'm not emotionally invested in anyone living or dying. I just think if you want them all alive at the end then you shouldn't keep putting them in certain death situations. Obviously I find tactics and strategy interesting so I found the lack of effort there a bit disappointing also, but Battle of the Bastards was no better so it wasn't that much of a let down.

Other than that though, I didn't have a problem with the episode. If the darkness thing was a technical problem with the stream then fair enough, complaints are justified. Seemed fine on my tv. Arya killing the Night King - well John and Theon both tried the heroic warrior route and failed miserably. Dany threw a whole dragon at him and just about got him to crack a smile. Obviously the frontal assaults weren't going to work so why not give the resident assassin a shot?

jonsnow

Overall I was disappointed with the episode. It was hyped as the greatest battle ever committed to film and it wasn't that. Say what you want about GOTS plotting and consistency in the last few seasons but it has always held up on the spectacle front - up until now. That's not to say that it was a bad episode or anything like that - it was still an astounding and breathtaking feat of filmmaking. But it wasn't up to the battle scenes of earlier seasons. It wasn't as good as BOB, the loot train, Hardhome or even the battle of the wall. It probably slightly edged out Blackwater. And 5th place for the culminating battle of your own 8 season show just doesn't cut it.

I think that they probably shot for the moon and missed. Fighting a battle in an ice storm at night against CGI zombies probably just pushed the envelope a bit too far vis a vis current technology. It was murky and confusing to watch. They had the best fight scene director currently operating in the world on the job so I think if he couldn't get it done then no-one could.

I think that D+D have achieved an amazing show over the years. There has never been a tv show of this scale and ambition before and never may be again. I remember Michael Imperoli in an interview years ago saying that the worst film you ever saw was made by talented people trying really hard to make art or at least something entertaining. The fact that it was so bad just shows you how astoundingly hard it is to make good films or tv shows. GOT isn't in the top tier of the top quality shows like the sopranos, the wire, madmen, breaking bad but it many ways its in a league of its own. Its first 3 seasons might have been but for budget constraints but as the budget increased the writing got sloppier and sloppier. It became a totally different show and worth watching for totally different reasons.

I remember seeing an article years ago which set out the shooting schedule that GOT had to do each year and it was so brutal. Whole swathes of the GOT production team have had very circumscribed lives for years on end at this stage D and D especially.

Taking all that into consideration it is clear that what they enjoyed is the political game of thrones - the show is not called a song of ice and fire. This was obvious when Dan said in the Inside the Episode something like "the valryian dagger killed the NK . i dont know why - youll have to figure that out for yourselves". That showing a pretty serious level of disengagement from your own canon.

I think for all the lip service towards this being the real war that mattered the one they really cared for was who sits the Iron Throne. As others have pointed out everyone who sat out the Battle for the dawn is doing much better at no cost whatsoever - pretty bad climate change analogy!!. To my mind D and D were always a bit too in love with the cynical winner takes all view of politics and war. In the books we are seeing this short term lannister approach lead their house to creating legions of bitter enemies who will inevitably take their revenge. Neds approach didnt play well in kings Landing - but his bannermen are rallying to his childrens cause out of love for him and his decency. In the tv show the only loyal bannermen are the lannister lords!!. Because D and D dont value soft power only badasses. We kept being told sansa and tyrion are strategic geniuses but tvsansa has never displayed any skills (deploying the vale army which LF arranged for her is so obvious it doesn't count) and tvtyrion has achieved nothing of note since the Blackwater. Booktyrion launched a spoiler invasion of westeros using a game of cyravesse.

The Good

That extra guy with the beard who fought for stannis and then the starks getting reanimated

Arya killing the NK was a cool scene even if it made no thematic sense and was all about the writers rewarding one of their favourite characters and actors and pulling off another twist.

The unsullied scenes were epic. By far the best army on the series. Great to see Grey Worm actually be a general for once and make tactical calls instead of just another foot soldier. The US actually used a retreating formation which was cool.

Some epic shots of the dragons strafing or getting above the cloud cover.

I thought that the ironborns last stand was actually well shot and choreographed.

Arya unleashed against the wights before she took the headshot was cool - as was Davos just staring agog

Some of Jons scenes once he got into the keep with the tracking shot was cool. I also loved that he ignored sam as he had to be ruthless and get back to the godswood.

Sam getting Dolrous Edd killed

Drogon getting swamped by undead

OKish

In this battle I can live with the idiotic Dothraki charge because I understand the budget constraints that plains cavalry deployed against a cgi army would entail - and the lights winking out

Arya library scene - except were these the braintrust wights - how were the so much quieter and smarter than any we have seen before?

Jorahs/Theons death scenes

Lyanna Mormonts last charge was kinda narmish but also kinda fun

Likewise Berics death

Bad

Tactics 101 - Catapults behind infantry. Fire more than one salvo. 25 year old strategy games AI know this!!.

We have seen the effectiveness of unsullied Lannister and Bolton infantry in Pike and shield formations. Why was the rest of the army just in general melee formation.

Some boiling pitch and rocks for the wall. Like we saw in season 2 Blackwater. Maybe fire more arrows when the dead are stationary in front of the fire trench instead of just staring at them. I thought some of the stuff on the parapets looked like dragonglass scythes!!. Nope. Lay out some dragonglass spikes and caltops and pour buckets of them and the liquid dragon glass on the dead. Nope.

Brans storyline has been as useless as his legs. He got the three eyed raven killed and then pretty much did nothing else except stir up potential conflict on the eve of battle.

The nightking storyline is to quote the hound "a smoking pile of rubble". Whats the NKs motivation, why did he stir now, why the symbols, whats going on with the babies - who cares!!!

The show has settled on traditional unstoppable badasses such as Jamie, Brienne, Tormund, Jon, davos? and sam?. They are essentially indestructible on the battlefield. Why did Jamie and Brienne ever surrender to Locke and his outriders. They could have slaughtered them all in minutes. They have full-on reached Aragon levels of superhuman ability.

Im hopeful that once they get back to kings landing and the machinations against cersei the show will have one more decent battle set piece (i think arya will overplay her hand and get killed by the mountain which will set off the hound and clegane bowl.) In reality 2 dragons (and the rest of the vale armies and dorne and maybe even the tullys - but i think DD have forgotten about them) should curbstomp 20k mercenaries but they will probably put their thumbs on the scales one last time before she gets her comeuppance.

jonsnow

ckeng wrote: »

Point is, even if the army was twice that size, with the way wights seem to operate it can't be both solid and miles wide.



This makes it worse for me. They had heavy cavalry which they used as foot troops and light cavalry which they used as heavy cavalry.

Yep

Necro

ckeng wrote: »

Point is, even if the army was twice that size, with the way wights seem to operate it can't be both solid and miles wide.

I don't understand your point? There are no 'flanks' to attack per se, they move in a large mass as is evident from when they were standing in front of the flames. Are you suggesting the Dothraki try to swing around the sides - because the mass would just shift fairly quickly and overwhelm them like they did with the main forces.

And it's not width, it's depth I'm referring to. To attempt to flank them would mean travelling a huge distance, at speed on horseback. The horses would be shattered by the time they reached the rear and the mass would simply turn and hit them hard regardless.

Anyways the Dothraki aren't exactly trained cavalry. Someone compared them to the Mongols/Huns and that's more appropriate.

fash

Necro wrote: »

I don't understand your point? There are no 'flanks' to attack per se, they move in a large mass as is evident from when they were standing in front of the flames. Are you suggesting the Dothraki try to swing around the sides - because the mass would just shift fairly quickly and overwhelm them like they did with the main forces.

And it's not width, it's depth I'm referring to. To attempt to flank them would mean travelling a huge distance, at speed on horseback. The horses would be shattered by the time they reached the rear and the mass would simply turn and hit them hard regardless.

Anyways the Dothraki aren't exactly trained cavalry. Someone compared them to the Mongols/Huns and that's more appropriate.

Not that far for a horse- I read a good analysis of correct tactics online suggesting that they would have been used for reconnaissance and repeated harrying (with bows and dragon glass arrows) over several days followed by harrying from the rear and sides - just far back enough that the numbers aren't too thick and you scythe right through then scythe right back again and again.

Necro

fash wrote: »

Not that far for a horse- I read a good analysis of correct tactics online suggesting that they would have been used for reconnaissance and repeated harrying (with bows and dragon glass arrows) over several days followed by harrying from the rear and sides - just far back enough that the numbers aren't too thick and you scythe right through then scythe right back again and again.

These are war horses though, bred for battle not reconnaissance

Necro

Necro wrote: »

These are war horses though, bred for battle not reconnaissance

Was it you saying that they were strafing horses,, earlier, and not warhorses?

Necro

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it you saying that they were strafing horses,, earlier, and not warhorses?

Nope, made no such claims. You've got the wrong guy :pac:

jonsnow

Necro wrote: »

Anyways the Dothraki aren't exactly trained cavalry. Someone compared them to the Mongols/Huns and that's more appropriate.

The mongols were the best trained cavalry in the history of the world.

jonsnow

fash wrote: »

Not that far for a horse- I read a good analysis of correct tactics online suggesting that they would have been used for reconnaissance and repeated harrying (with bows and dragon glass arrows) over several days followed by harrying from the rear and sides - just far back enough that the numbers aren't too thick and you scythe right through then scythe right back again and again.

Weve seen jon snow on one horse escape from the entire army of the dead. The dothraki would have remounts. Which granted you never see in movies and is rarely even mentioned in fantasy novels

Triceratops Ballet

Necro wrote:

I don't understand your point? There are no 'flanks' to attack per se, they move in a large mass as is evident from when they were standing in front of the flames. Are you suggesting the Dothraki try to swing around the sides - because the mass would just shift fairly quickly and overwhelm them like they did with the main forces.

I made the comment while watching that the wights move more like the sea rushing up onto the sand than anything resembling human.

billyhead

What I would love to know is where did Ayra come from when she killed the NK i.e its like she was right above him and then came straight down. Also how come the NKs lieutenants didn't see here rock up towards him. The death of the NK was all a bit silly.

Necro

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I made the comment while watching that the wights move more like the sea rushing up onto the sand than anything resembling human.

Yeah, that's what I was kind of trying to get at. Comparing the undead horde to a military force is a bit silly as they don't care if they get hurt or trampled, unless you burn them or stab them with dragonglass they just keep coming. Trying to brute force through them would have horses and men atop them dragged under.

But meh, I don't want to keep banging on about this any more. There are no tactics in any book or online that would assist an assault on a massive undead force as they aren't real :pac:

ckeng

Necro wrote: »

I don't understand your point? There are no 'flanks' to attack per se, they move in a large mass as is evident from when they were standing in front of the flames. Are you suggesting the Dothraki try to swing around the sides - because the mass would just shift fairly quickly and overwhelm them like they did with the main forces.

And it's not width, it's depth I'm referring to. To attempt to flank them would mean travelling a huge distance, at speed on horseback. The horses would be shattered by the time they reached the rear and the mass would simply turn and hit them hard regardless.

Anyways the Dothraki aren't exactly trained cavalry. Someone compared them to the Mongols/Huns and that's more appropriate.

Unless they're in a circle there is no way not to have flanks. If your're talking depth then you just have flanks that are miles long. Regardless though, there's also no need for them to flank the undead army or go to the rear. Wight's have no ranged weapons. Mounted cavalry ride to within bow shot, shoot off a couple of rounds and retreat. Repeat as necessary.

bur

billyhead wrote: »

What I would love to know is where did Ayra come from when she killed the NK i.e its like she was right above him and then came straight down. Also how come the NKs lieutenants didn't see here rock up towards him. The death of the NK was all a bit silly.

she's a ninja assassin with magical powers. use your imagination.

bigslice

Lads it’s getting comical. Never released boards was so full of screenplay writers or military commanders. They should take back the FCA.

Tazzimus

For all that are complaining about Arya killing the NK;
Remember that Sam Tarly killed a walker first

Necro

ckeng wrote: »

Unless they're in a circle there is no way not to have flanks. If your're talking depth then you just have flanks that are miles long. Regardless though, there's also no need for them to flank the undead army or go to the rear. Wight's have no ranged weapons. Mounted cavalry ride to within bow shot, shoot off a couple of rounds and retreat. Repeat as necessary.

Once more, with feeling...

They are not an army, they are a mass of undead who continuously push forward.

They don't tire, they don't stop. If they don't have weapons they rip you apart with brute force, or nails, or teeth.

Trying to compare a military force to them and this idea of flanking a horde is insane. They'd simply turn and overwhelm them, as is what happened.

ckeng

Necro wrote: »

Yeah, that's what I was kind of trying to get at. Comparing the undead horde to a military force is a bit silly as they don't care if they get hurt or trampled, unless you burn them or stab them with dragonglass they just keep coming. Trying to brute force through them would have horses and men atop them dragged under.

But meh, I don't want to keep banging on about this any more. There are no tactics in any book or online that would assist an assault on a massive undead force as they aren't real :pac:

Posted my last reply before I read this post. I disagree, I just think you're reading the wrong books on tactics. But hey, it's a world with dragons and undead and Ed Sheeran so who really cares. There are far more important things to be doing than going round in circles with me.

Necro

ckeng wrote: »

Posted my last reply before I read this post. I disagree, I just think you're reading the wrong books on tactics. But hey, it's a world with dragons and undead and Ed Sheeran so who really cares. There are far more important things to be doing than going round in circles with me.

I'm not reading any books on tactics :pac:

You are correct in a conventional sense of warfare but comparing an army of undead to an organised unit doesn't work. You're talking about mindless killing machines who don't feel any pain. But yeah, I think we'll just agree to differ

This is getting stupid.

You don't need to be a military fuking commander to know that siege weapons go behind, trenches go in front, and your light cavalry doesn't charge the enemy while in a defensive position.

If you ignore these facts, or just accept them and don't let them hinder your enjoyment, cool. More power too you for having absolutely zero standards. Don't dare mock us who do though.

fash

Necro wrote: »

These are war horses though, bred for battle not reconnaissance

War horses are bred to carry heavy cavalry - these were Mongol style light cavalry who spent generations continuously wandering a continent- sounds like the perfect reconnaissance type horse to me.

duploelabs

It's a zombie army, commanded by an icy undead king who rides on a zombie dragon.

Necro

Necro wrote: »

Once more, with feeling...

They are not an army, they are a mass of undead who continuously push forward.

They don't tire, they don't stop. If they don't have weapons they rip you apart with brute force, or nails, or teeth.

Trying to compare a military force to them and this idea of flanking a horde is insane. They'd simply turn and overwhelm them, as is what happened.

Throw all the feeling you want at it but does not change the fact that if the dothraki stayed in reach of ranged weapons only they could have run the length of the Undead taking out hundreds on each pass, until they force a charge.
Then retreat drawing them into range of large ranged weapons. Then yes circle around and keep the attacks going from the sides while archers and infantry dealt with the frontal charge. The NK army was focused on the castle and narrowed in for that.

Trenches further out with archers actually firing through them. The undead stood looking through the fire for an age.

the NK army may have an advantage of berseker style rage attack but they have no formation, no defense, no caution. You keep assuming that just because they have no fear that any tactics will fail, when all that needs be done is whittle away at them constantly, bottle neck, arrange defenses smarter.

They were always going to be overwhelmed but the point was to force the Night King to make his move. As it stands it was only through sheer over confidence of the NK and the magic of Deus Ex Arya that contrived a victory.

razorblunt

Deleted User wrote: »

Throw all the feeling you want at it but does not change the fact that if the dothraki stayed in reach of ranged weapons only they could have run the length of the Undead taking out hundreds on each pass, until they force a charge.
Then retreat drawing them into range of large ranged weapons. Then yes circle around and keep the attacks going from the sides. The NK army was focused on the castle and narrowed in for that.


Trenches further out with archers actually firing at them. The undead stood looking through the fire for an age.

the NK army may have an advantage of berseker style rage attack but they have no formation, no defense, no caution. You keep assuming that just because they have no fear that any tactics will fail, when all that needs be done is whittle away at them constantly, bottle neck, arrange defenses smarter.


hey were always going to be overwhelmed but the point was to force the Night King to make his move. As it stands it was only through sheer over confidence of the NK and the magic of Deus Ex Arya that contrived a victory.

And after all that, the NK would raise his hands in the air like he just dont care and lift the newly undead and those not dropped by dragonglass and fire.



Rewatching a 3rd time, big shout out to the 2 Wildlings left standing at the end, standing on the roof of a hut inside the walls of Winterfells with bodies all around them

duploelabs

duploelabs wrote: »

It's a zombie army, commanded by an icy undead king who rides on a zombie dragon (of a show that had better standards once).

there you go

razorblunt

razorblunt wrote: »

And after all that, the NK would raise his hands in the air like he just dont care and lift the newly undead and those not dropped by dragonglass and fire.

Lose 1,000s to gain several dozen?

PhiloCypher

It's kinda funny, everybody has complained about how the show has lost its complexity in favour of becoming a straight up fantasy show full of mindless action in the last few seasons. A few of us suggest how they could have made the battle more interesting and dare I say it complex and nows it's "why are you complicating things,they are undead, it's a Fantasy show".

There's nowt as strange as folk as they say.

Triceratops Ballet

PhiloCypher wrote: »

It's kinda funny, everybody has complained about how the show has lost its complexity in favour of becoming a straight up fantasy show full of mindless action in the last few seasons. A few of us suggest how they could have made the battle more interesting and dare I say it complex and nows it's "why are you complicating things,they are undead, it's a Fantasy show".

There's nowt as strange as folk as they say.

There's different types of viewers imo, when I say I miss the complexity of the show I miss the political aspect the actual "game" of thrones, the people in rooms saying clever things, those magic two hander scenes, like Cersei and Robert, Varys and Littlefinger, Tryion and Tywin, even Tywin and Arya in those scenes at Harrenhall. Those things to me are what make the show great, and all of those type scenes in the last few seasons have been lacking a little something for my taste (but I still love the show)

I literally don't care about battle scenes at all, there's nothing about two armies charging at each other that interests me at all. When I do a rewatch I often skip forward through battle scenes cos to me it's the kind of thing that once you've seen once or twice already you don't need to see again. Because of that I'm willing to forgive what others might see as tactical errors cos I'm like grand let's watch this spectacle and get it over with so we can see the good stuff. I appreciate that there are those who think only the battle scenes are any use so they probably experience the same frustration as I do when the dialogue isn't as sharp as I want it to be.

My point is we don't all want or care about the same things, essentially we're all watching different shows!! So arguing about it is lunacy!

razorblunt

Deleted User wrote: »

Lose 1,000s to gain several dozen?

There were undead still pouring into winterfell (fell before the walls) at the end when they all crumbled.

Necro

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

There's different types of viewers imo, when I say I miss the complexity of the show I miss the political aspect the actual "game" of thrones, the people in rooms saying clever things, those magic two hander scenes, like Cersei and Robert, Varys and Littlefinger, Tryion and Tywin, even Tywin and Arya in those scenes at Harrenhall. Those things to me are what make the show great, and all of those type scenes in the last few seasons have been lacking a little something for my taste (but I still love the show)

Agree with you re: the dialogue. It's definitely suffered from the post book phase in that respect. As I said, it's a crying shame Martin couldn't have finished the novels before the show caught up.

It's still excellent - just not at the early season standards.

razorblunt

razorblunt wrote: »

There were undead still pouring into winterfell (fell before the walls) at the end when they all crumbled.

Exactly, by their actions they did not do half enough damage to the NK army and fed more into the ranks

Necro

Necro wrote: »

Agree with you re: the dialogue. It's definitely suffered from the post book phase in that respect. As I said, it's a crying shame Martin couldn't have finished the novels before the show caught up.

It's still excellent - just not at the early season standards.

That we agree on

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Necro wrote: »

Agree with you re: the dialogue. It's definitely suffered from the post book phase in that respect. As I said, it's a crying shame Martin couldn't have finished the novels before the show caught up.

It's still excellent - just not at the early season standards.

The anachronisms, for want of a better word, have really increased. Couple of clangers this week, Lady Mormont's "we're done here" springs to mind.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

duploelabs wrote: »

It's a zombie army, commanded by an icy undead king who rides on a zombie dragon.

Getting more of an African swallow vibe off things personally. How dare I!

fash

razorblunt wrote: »

There were undead still pouring into winterfell (fell before the walls) at the end when they all crumbled.

Most likely dead dothraki. Even if previously existing (hardly credible), it was that density of wights that would be perfect to mow down by dothraki.

PhuckHugh

Visually great - good battle and all that but over all I felt it was woeful --- 8 years building up the WWs /NK and a little pin brick and he's gone with no insight into what he was after and all the other loose plot lines surrounding his story. I know the real story is about the fight for the Iron Throne but come on!! - If this was their grand plan they would have been better off just giving a whole season over the the WWs/NK and just be done with it instead of building it up like they did.

Hopefully Martin addresses all this in the final book.

paulbok

fash wrote: »

Most likely dead dothraki. Even if previously existing (hardly credible), it was that density of wights that would be perfect to mow down by dothraki.

I'd go with the opposite for the Dothraki, once they charge into the swarm of dead they come to a standstill. They take out the first few dead in front of them but get easily overrun. Following horsemen crash into them (it being pitch black save for the flaming swords). Dead climb over each other to get to the next live Dothraki.
It'd be like running into water on a beach, great speed initaily but quickly lose momentum and as you get deeper the strength/pressure of the water knocks you over.

The density of dead was ideal for the trebuchets and dragons to blitz, and archers couldn't miss once in range

fash

paulbok wrote: »

I'd go with the opposite for the Dothraki, once they charge into the swarm of dead they come to a standstill. They take out the first few dead in front of them but get easily overrun. Following horsemen crash into them (it being pitch black save for the flaming swords). Dead climb over each other to get to the next live Dothraki.
It'd be like running into water on a beach, great speed initaily but quickly lose momentum and as you get deeper the strength/pressure of the water knocks you over.

The density of dead was ideal for the trebuchets and dragons to blitz, and archers couldn't miss once in range

I'm talking the Wight stragglers who were still walking into the castle while the NK was in the gods wood

Hyzepher

I'm actually glad that I can watch an episode of GOT without needing to analyse every single decision made or feel the need to have everything 100% make sense. If I was like that I would have ruined one of the best TV experiences ever.

Sometimes you just need to enjoy something the way that it is presented. Is it perfect? No. But it's still miles ahead of everything else.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Hyzepher wrote: »

I'm actually glad that I can watch an episode of GOT without needing to analyse every single decision made or feel the need to have everything 100% make sense. If I was like that I would have ruined one of the best TV experiences ever.

Sometimes you just need to enjoy something the way that it is presented. Is it perfect? No. But it's still miles ahead of everything else.

I think if you know a bit about the logistics of filming and post production you're a bit more chilled out about it too. I can perfectly understand the thinking behind what happened to the Dothraki for example, it's the thinking of the producers of a large scale TV show and not of actual medieval military commanders.

They needed to be gone by next week, their demise needed to be treated with narrative significance and it needed to have a cost lower than "infinite".

Now, that's yet another example of the constraints of production and the demands of the overall plot dictating character actions. That's the main difference between D&D's writing and GRRM's, they look at where they need to end up and move the pieces to get there; he moves the pieces in a way that makes sense and that dictates where he ends up. If the approach taken by the show means illogical military decisions, actions out of character and so on they're fine with doing that.

Even their execution of that approach is imperfect, there's no need for the fake cliffhangers they've had for Arya, Jaime and, this week, most named characters. However, Martin's approach isn't without its drawbacks either. He created a richly credible world, with complex but consistent characters and a strict relationship between action and consequence...and has ended up writing himself into a credible, complex, consequential corner to the point where he seems absolutely incapable of progressing the narrative to ANY kind of conclusion.

You are never, ever, ever going to get perfect content. But without this show we would have had none in the last decade. If the showrunners had failed to do it on time and in budget we'd have got none. Those realities of physics and finance are the driving forces, and of the rather lengthy list of disappointments that have arisen from that I'm surprised and amused that for an apparently sizeable group of people "reeeeee that's not how you use trebuchets, everyone's stupid" is so very high up the list.

The 80 minutes of network television that features zombie hordes, three enormous dragons, the destruction of winterfell, cavalry charges, hundreds of extras, a huge main cast AND an historically accurate and logical depiction of medieval style military tactics just does not and cannot exist. It's not a realistic expectation. And it wouldn't actually fcuking be Game of Thrones without the former, so not pissing one's knickers all week over the lack of the latter isn't the act of idiocy it's being made out to be.

check_six

Can anyone remind me of the status of the Iron Bank loan? Cersei was under pressure to pay up and had run out of money. They raided Highgarden and took the Tyrell's money to pay the loan. Was this money taken from the Lannister army when they were on the way back to King's Landing and got raided by Daenerys and the Dothraki? Maybe I'm missing something about where the money ended up.

paulbok

check_six wrote: »

Can anyone remind me of the status of the Iron Bank loan? Cersei was under pressure to pay up and had run out of money. They raided Highgarden and took the Tyrell's money to pay the loan. Was this money taken from the Lannister army when they were on the way back to King's Landing and got raided by Daenerys and the Dothraki? Maybe I'm missing something about where the money ended up.

No, it made it back to Kings Landing before the attack, Tarly informed Jamie at one point. Then there is a scene with Cersei and a dude from the Iron Bank where he expresses his surprise she paid the debt all off at once (and then took out another loan to hire the Golden Company).

IAmTheReign

There's something that's been bothering me since I watched the episode. So from what I got the whole plan was to use Bran as bait so they could draw the NK into a trap and kill him. I don't really understand why the NK was so dead set on killing him himself that he would be willing to expose himself unnecessarily but that's not what bothers me.

What really bothered me was instead of actually waiting for the NK to fall for the bait and walk into a trap Jon flew off into the clouds after him. If he was going to go after the NK the minute he saw him why set a trap to draw him in. And why set a trap if you don't have a plan to kill him when he gets to the Godswood? It makes absolutely no sense. Leaving Bran exposed in the Godswood served literally no purpose. Unless I'm missing something the whole 'plan' for killing the NK seems like one massive plot hole.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

IAmTheReign wrote: »

There's something that's been bothering me since I watched the episode. So from what I got the whole plan was to use Bran as bait so they could draw the NK into a trap and kill him. I don't really understand why the NK was so dead set on killing him himself that he would be willing to expose himself unnecessarily but that's not what bothers me.

What really bothered me was instead of actually waiting for the NK to fall for the bait and walk into a trap Jon flew off into the clouds after him. If he was going to go after the NK the minute he saw him why set a trap to draw him in. And why set a trap if you don't have a plan to kill him when he gets to the Godswood? It makes absolutely no sense. Leaving Bran exposed in the Godswood served literally no purpose. Unless I'm missing something the whole 'plan' for killing the NK seems like one massive plot hole.

I think the plan was to draw him out in the open by using Bran as bait, hanging back on the other 2 dragons until he revealed himself. Then it's two dragons against one, take him out and hope the ground troops held out until then, leaving the iron islanders to protect Bran from wights but on the assumption the WWs and NK wouldn't get close.

However, Daenarys gon Daenarys, and she abandoned that as soon as she saw the Dothraki being wiped out, though to be fair that initial onslaught looks like it would have overwhelmed the living almost immediately if she hadn't.

Doesn't seem anyone was expecting that ice storm, and doesn't seem the Night King expected to be anywhere but on his dragon. Everyone's plan fell to sh1t pretty quickly.

Loafing Oaf

IAmTheReign wrote: »

There's something that's been bothering me since I watched the episode. So from what I got the whole plan was to use Bran as bait so they could draw the NK into a trap and kill him. I don't really understand why the NK was so dead set on killing him himself that he would be willing to expose himself unnecessarily but that's not what bothers me.

Was he intent on some kind of ceremonial killing? If all he wanted to do was bump him off, why not unleash a proper zombie horde, rather than the handful that Theon and co could pick off, or use the dragon to burn down the godswood?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Was he intent on some kind of ceremonial killing? If all he wanted to do was bump him off, why not unleash a proper zombie horde, rather than the handful that Theon and co could pick off, or use the dragon to burn down the godswood?

Seems like he was intent on killing him himself so when his dragon was banjaxed he continued on foot. Would have worked fine if it hadn't been for Ayra. Guessing it might have been some kind of ritual sacrifice involving the tree, same as created him iirc.

Sam will probably get clonked on the head by a book that explains it all falling from the sky next week, then fart or fall over and explain it to everyone else.

Drumpot

I didn’t read the books but heard a podcast discussing bran starks history which suggest the NK was a Bran stark who made the wall And fell in love with a nightqueen. Is that just book stuff and is it not now relevant to the show because they implied the NK was just some guy they made with no particular importance to who he is? Seems a bit of a stretch for them to do a twist with Bran at this stage?!

Mokuba

Drumpot wrote: »

I didn’t read the books but heard a podcast discussing bran starks history which suggest the NK was a Bran stark who made the wall And fell in love with a nightqueen. Is that just book stuff and is it not now relevant to the show because they implied the NK was just some guy they made with no particular importance to who he is? Seems a bit of a stretch for them to do a twist with Bran at this stage?!

There is no Night King in the books, yet at least.

The books certainly hint at Bran being a much darker character than in the shows. He starts to enjoy warging into Hodor even though Hodor is in extreme pain when it happens, and he may have eaten Jojen.

leggo

Sam Rapid Rafter wrote: »

I think if you know a bit about the logistics of filming and post production you're a bit more chilled out about it too. I can perfectly understand the thinking behind what happened to the Dothraki for example, it's the thinking of the producers of a large scale TV show and not of actual medieval military commanders.

They needed to be gone by next week, their demise needed to be treated with narrative significance and it needed to have a cost lower than "infinite".

Now, that's yet another example of the constraints of production and the demands of the overall plot dictating character actions. That's the main difference between D&D's writing and GRRM's, they look at where they need to end up and move the pieces to get there; he moves the pieces in a way that makes sense and that dictates where he ends up. If the approach taken by the show means illogical military decisions, actions out of character and so on they're fine with doing that.

Even their execution of that approach is imperfect, there's no need for the fake cliffhangers they've had for Arya, Jaime and, this week, most named characters. However, Martin's approach isn't without its drawbacks either. He created a richly credible world, with complex but consistent characters and a strict relationship between action and consequence...and has ended up writing himself into a credible, complex, consequential corner to the point where he seems absolutely incapable of progressing the narrative to ANY kind of conclusion.

You are never, ever, ever going to get perfect content. But without this show we would have had none in the last decade. If the showrunners had failed to do it on time and in budget we'd have got none. Those realities of physics and finance are the driving forces, and of the rather lengthy list of disappointments that have arisen from that I'm surprised and amused that for an apparently sizeable group of people "reeeeee that's not how you use trebuchets, everyone's stupid" is so very high up the list.

The 80 minutes of network television that features zombie hordes, three enormous dragons, the destruction of winterfell, cavalry charges, hundreds of extras, a huge main cast AND an historically accurate and logical depiction of medieval style military tactics just does not and cannot exist. It's not a realistic expectation. And it wouldn't actually fcuking be Game of Thrones without the former, so not pissing one's knickers all week over the lack of the latter isn't the act of idiocy it's being made out to be.

Best post I’ve read on this. Eventually it has to be a TV show and get to a conclusion, certain things need to happen to get there and logic may take a backseat in those instances. Some can accept that and enjoy it for what it is, some can’t and would rather imagine there’s a perfect way of doing it and GRRM has just been biding his time to show it. The author everyone is imagining would tie it all together perfectly (despite a good 40% of his work on this project being at least somewhat flawed on its own merit) literally can’t. He can’t. He would’ve made SOME inroads by now and not looked like an incompetent fool in front of the entire planet, as his story exploded in popularity, if he could’ve.

I don’t see why the people who are dealing with the ****ty hand they were dealt are the ones getting crapped on. Any flaws are ultimately at least partially George’s fault because he failed to finish the books on time and left it to others to have to figure out how to wrap up the hole he wrote himself into. I will always appreciate what GRRM has given me through creating this world, but that’s just factual. People can be naive hero worship him all you like, it happened and it’s on him.