Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Buer

sydthebeat wrote: »

Islanders are kolpak as far as I know

I assume Jaco was more referencing the limit on NIQ players although it hasn't been discussed in a long time at this point. I assume Ulster wouldn’t be allowed more than 4.

Nakarawa and Carter are two already.

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

Unless the Islanders have Irish grannies they can't all play.

2 of them could I think? Maybe I'm wrong about that. I'm not 100% clear on how Kolpak works.

bilston

Buer wrote: »

I assume Jaco was more referencing the limit on NIQ players although it hasn't been discussed in a long time at this point. I assume Ulster wouldn’t be allowed more than 4.

Nakarawa and Carter are two already.

I'm thinking it of more as a recruitment policy going forward. Maybe we'd only be limited to two per matchday squad? But two Islanders plus a Saffer/Aussie. Would that be allowed?

It seems to be an area Irish provinces rarely target for overseas players. Nacewa and Nagusa are two exceptions. Have Connacht signed a couple over the years?

sydthebeat

They'd a certain guy called mils muliaina at one stage.

salmocab

bilston wrote: »

I'm thinking it of more as a recruitment policy going forward. Maybe we'd only be limited to two per matchday squad? But two Islanders plus a Saffer/Aussie. Would that be allowed?

It seems to be an area Irish provinces rarely target for overseas players. Nacewa and Nagusa are two exceptions. Have Connacht signed a couple over the years?

You could get a Pappali for yourselves then you could moan about a red card every week.

launish116

salmocab wrote: »

You could get a Pappali for yourselves then you could moan about a red card every week.

Think we’d coach that out of him though! I’d take him in a heart beat! He scares defences!

It’s simple we think we’re far better than we are as we’ve been beating weakened sides with a semi full strength Ulster. When in reality weakened teams have been challenging us and getting a lot more value/experience from those games for their squads. That experience is going strengthen them and flatter us!

The pack is and always has been the issue with Ulster! Question now isn’t how to fix, but why hasn’t it been fixed....it’s been the elephant in the room for almost a decade. Jack Regan perfect example couldn’t get a game look now....

In McCann, Izzy, Reid we have talent slowing creeping in! Stranger question being why is Izzy a player with Little or no 15s rugby getting more opportunities than a player like McCann.

Ulsters pack need to bulk up, they have the skill but don’t have the beef! We have loads of 6.5’s and no true blindsides/no8s! Nawakara looks a little over weight and isn’t going to fill a Coetzee hole!

salmocab

launish116 wrote: »

Think we’d coach that out of him though! I’d take him in a heart beat! He scares defences !

Ulster dont need players like that they need dependable solid players like a Michael Bent. He won’t scare quality defences, no good aiming to scare the dragons defence when they aren’t the teams that Ulster struggle with.

Utah_Saint

salmocab wrote: »

Ulster dont need players like that they need dependable solid players like a Michael Bent. He won’t scare quality defences, no good aiming to scare the dragons defence when they aren’t the teams that Ulster struggle with.

We need players better than bent if we plan to win anything.
Looking at the academy, bar McCann, Reid and Stewart, there isn't much coming through

launish116

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We need players better than bent if we plan to win anything.
Looking at the academy, bar McCann, Reid and Stewart, there isn't much coming through

Questions need asked why players like Allison who had a good u20 arnt making the leap up. We are in no position to turn our back on forwards!

bayern

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We need players better than bent if we plan to win anything.
Looking at the academy, bar McCann, Reid and Stewart, there isn't much coming through

in the forwards? They are coming but some are still at sub-academy level at the moment.

1. George Saunderson(U20)
2. James McCormick(U19)
3. Oscar Egan(U20)
4. Cormac Izzy(U21)
5. Conor McMenamin(U21)
6. Harry Sheridan(U20)
7. Rueben Crothers(U19)
8. David McCann(U20)

Utah_Saint

launish116 wrote: »

Questions need asked why players like Allison who had a good u20 arnt making the leap up. We are in no position to turn our back on forwards!

I think it's coaching, you see the Leinster forwards, 2nd and 3rd choice playing at same level as the 1st. They are drilled like drones... Saracens at their peak and Leinster were very similar in this regard

launish116

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I think it's coaching, you see the Leinster forwards, 2nd and 3rd choice playing at same level as the 1st. They are drilled like drones... Saracens at their peak and Leinster were very similar in this regard

And yet the issue still is here? Until we become sustainable we’re never gonna compete. Serious questions need asked now we have the likes of Jack Regan never even getting a chance to being named in teams of the week in New Zealand! Is it time we farm out or forwards to develop initially.

There are some dross teams in this league with packs half as skill full as ours and bat well above their weight in comparison.

The argument for look who’s coming through, sadly doesn’t stand any longer with Ulster! Means feck all sadly if they never get given the opportunities.

salmocab

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We need players better than bent if we plan to win anything.
Looking at the academy, bar McCann, Reid and Stewart, there isn't much coming through

I’d take a Michael Bent type player over a Papalii type player all day every day if I wanted to win a trophy. Bent has won plenty and has been a very important player for Leinster.

Bazzo

bilston wrote: »

I'm thinking it of more as a recruitment policy going forward. Maybe we'd only be limited to two per matchday squad? But two Islanders plus a Saffer/Aussie. Would that be allowed?

It seems to be an area Irish provinces rarely target for overseas players. Nacewa and Nagusa are two exceptions. Have Connacht signed a couple over the years?

Quite a few but not many have had a major impact. Naulia Dawai probably the most recent unless I'm forgetting someone. But the really top class athletes from the islands tend to end up in France earning big money, be difficult for the provinces to compete financially I'd have thought.

irishbucsfan

Bazzo wrote: »

Quite a few but not many have had a major impact. Naulia Dawai probably the most recent unless I'm forgetting someone. But the really top class athletes from the islands tend to end up in France earning big money, be difficult for the provinces to compete financially I'd have thought.

Ray Ofisa?

Bazzo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ray Ofisa?

Yep, he's a Connacht legend. I was saying Dawai was our most recent islander signing(I'm excluding second generationers born in NZ). Don't think Dawai actually ended up even picking up many Connacht caps.

launish116

Always thought Yato at Clermont would be a great fit for our type of fast/mobile game.

bilston

salmocab wrote: »

Ulster dont need players like that they need dependable solid players like a Michael Bent. He won’t scare quality defences, no good aiming to scare the dragons defence when they aren’t the teams that Ulster struggle with.

We need ball carriers

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

Questions need asked why players like Allison who had a good u20 arnt making the leap up. We are in no position to turn our back on forwards!

Allison didn't really have that big an impact at U20s level, that may have been down to injury, but unless he is currently then we can only assume he isn't at the level we maybe thought.

bilston

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I think it's coaching, you see the Leinster forwards, 2nd and 3rd choice playing at same level as the 1st. They are drilled like drones... Saracens at their peak and Leinster were very similar in this regard

Yeah, I'll begrudgingly admit that it is impressive.

We have a pretty good coaching set up at Ulster but Leinster have a world class set up. The other thing is that basically the entire Leinster first choice pack is test quality, that is bound to have a trickle down affect at training in terms of intensity levels.

There is also a psychological thing going on here too when it comes to playing Leinster. That's what I like about our A team, they dont seem to have that with two wins from two this season. I think a lot of them played in the Ulster U18s two or three years ago that won the Inter Pros. They dont seem to have that fear of Leinster that the senior squad have.

bilston

Bazzo wrote: »

Quite a few but not many have had a major impact. Naulia Dawai probably the most recent unless I'm forgetting someone. But the really top class athletes from the islands tend to end up in France earning big money, be difficult for the provinces to compete financially I'd have thought.

Do the French clubs not get these guys in their late teens/early 20s? They wouldn't cost us much then. But I guess they could be hit or miss signings compared a someone who has established themselves in Super Rugby.

mfceiling

bilston wrote: »

Yeah, I'll begrudgingly admit that it is impressive.

We have a pretty good coaching set up at Ulster but Leinster have a world class set up. The other thing is that basically the entire Leinster first choice pack is test quality, that is bound to have a trickle down affect at training in terms of intensity levels.

There is also a psychological thing going on here too when it comes to playing Leinster. That's what I like about our A team, they dont seem to have that with two wins from two this season. I think a lot of them played in the Ulster U18s two or three years ago that won the Inter Pros. They dont seem to have that fear of Leinster that the senior squad have.

Don't forget the schools system.

These lads are coming out of a schools system into an academy system with no drop in standards.

In school they are on strength and conditioning programs, weight training, skills training and dietary requirements.

It really is a conveyor belt system. I've said it before.... it's great if you are an Ireland fan but not so great if your provincial loyalty is outside of Leinster.

bayern

mfceiling wrote: »

Don't forget the schools system.

These lads are coming out of a schools system into an academy system with no drop in standards.

In school they are on strength and conditioning programs, weight training, skills training and dietary requirements.

It really is a conveyor belt system. I've said it before.... it's great if you are an Ireland fan but not so great if your provincial loyalty is outside of Leinster.

Ulster have the same setup.. they may not have a St. Michaels or Blackrock but let's not pretend the rugby schools in ulster don't have S&C setups and good coaching.

Ulster schools team have been very competitive in recent seasons with Leinster so the gap isn't that big at that level.

ShineyShiney

I was looking forward to seeing the match up between O Toole / O'Sullivan and Byrne / Bent. Especially with the 2 Ulster lads being in the Irish squad discussions.

I know it was an odd game with all the cards but was I wrong to be underwhelmed?

launish116

mfceiling wrote: »

Don't forget the schools system.

These lads are coming out of a schools system into an academy system with no drop in standards.

In school they are on strength and conditioning programs, weight training, skills training and dietary requirements.

It really is a conveyor belt system. I've said it before.... it's great if you are an Ireland fan but not so great if your provincial loyalty is outside of Leinster.

My issue being we as fans can see this, why arn’t Ulster doing more in School etc to at least mirror/improve the link up to academy (excuse my ignorance, maybe they are).

As for the likes of Allison, Regan and many more academy forwards over the years. It’s criminal investing 3 or so years for them not to make the jump up. If they aren’t cutting it. Why are we waiting to their final year to release them. Part of me believes this isn’t solely a player issue.

We have such a small player pool, are conversion rate in forwards is a shambles.

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

Don't forget the schools system.

These lads are coming out of a schools system into an academy system with no drop in standards.

In school they are on strength and conditioning programs, weight training, skills training and dietary requirements.

It really is a conveyor belt system. I've said it before.... it's great if you are an Ireland fan but not so great if your provincial loyalty is outside of Leinster.

Inst and Methody have pretty professional outfits to be fair. In any given year Inst and Methody are capable of competing with the Dublin schools. Although interestingly Ballymena Academy and Wallace seem to produce more Ulster players than Inst and Methody, the 2017 Inst team being an exception to the rule. Maybe there is something in that?

I think the two years after school could be a problem. We have one club in AIL 1A. Leinster probably have 7 or 8. Our 18-20 year olds don't get the same level of high intensity rugby, they are playing in 1B or even 2A. The top schools players who are just shy of Sub Academy or Acadmey level tend to go to Uni across the water and are lost to the system and that means our clubs suffer a bit. For me the solution is that the Branch picks three clubs and directs all Academy and Sub Academy players to them. The clubs that miss out may not like it, but I think it would give the development of our younger players a boost and strengthen our 1B clubs and increase our chances of getting a second and maybe a third club into 1A.

Maybe I'm talking absolute s***e:D

bilston

ShineyShiney wrote: »

I was looking forward to seeing the match up between O Toole / O'Sullivan and Byrne / Bent. Especially with the 2 Ulster lads being in the Irish squad discussions.

I know it was an odd game with all the cards but was I wrong to be underwhelmed?

Think O'Sullivan got injured early on which is why he went off, he then had to come back so probably wasn't completely fit. O'Toole is great around the park, but his scrummaging needs to develop more. He is 21, maybe just turned 22 though so has loads of time on his side.

RuPi

bilston wrote: »

Inst and Methody have pretty professional outfits to be fair. In any given year Inst and Methody are capable of competing with the Dublin schools. Although interestingly Ballymena Academy and Wallace seem to produce more Ulster players than Inst and Methody, the 2017 Inst team being an exception to the rule. Maybe there is something in that?

I think the two years after school could be a problem. We have one club in AIL 1A. Leinster probably have 7 or 8. Our 18-20 year olds don't get the same level of high intensity rugby, they are playing in 1B or even 2A. The top schools players who are just shy of Sub Academy or Acadmey level tend to go to Uni across the water and are lost to the system and that means our clubs suffer a bit. For me the solution is that the Branch picks three clubs and directs all Academy and Sub Academy players to them. The clubs that miss out may not like it, but I think it would give the development of our younger players a boost and strengthen our 1B clubs and increase our chances of getting a second and maybe a third club into 1A.

Maybe I'm talking absolute s***e:D

Does that not already happen to Banbridge, Hinch and Malone? Queens to a lesser extent mop up the sub academy by telling them all they will get bursaries.

bayern

bilston wrote: »

Think O'Sullivan got injured early on which is why he went off, he then had to come back so probably wasn't completely fit. O'Toole is great around the park, but his scrummaging needs to develop more. He is 21, maybe just turned 22 though so has loads of time on his side.

If EOS was injured why did he come back on?

launish116

bayern wrote: »

If EOS was injured why did he come back on?

Similar to McCall a few weeks back? Needed stability in scrum? Couldn’t keep giving Leinster a platform.