Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Squidgy Black

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Okay. Back to the serious business.

Get Murphy, Moore, McCloskey, Mathewson and Madigan back in. (Do we have anyone else whose surname starts with an M?)

I personally would still have Lowry at 15. Too soon for Addison after fifteen whole months out, surely?

Speaking of "M"s... Milasinovich. Did I imagine him? Surely he should have leapfrogged Ross Kane? What is going on with him? He looks a unit, but seems to have disappeared off the face of the Earth. Maybe he'll get gametime during the illustrious Bungle Cup. Really need McCann and Doak to see some game time against Munster and Leinster. (In Munster's case, not least so they win against the weans and convince themselves they've turned a corner and are now in the top two provinces...)

Milasinovich must be on pennies, or else the coaches really see something in him in terms of potential, because to get a two year extension after being injured for a year and a half of your original two year deal and then only making 5 appearances off the bench is some serious luck.

launish116

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Milasinovich must be on pennies, or else the coaches really see something in him in terms of potential, because to get a two year extension after being injured for a year and a half of your original two year deal and then only making 5 appearances off the bench is some serious luck.

Guessing we don’t have any other Tightheads in the pipeline. Also though Kane was lucky:

Paul Smeenus

is there anyone in the sub-Academy? Reid is the only prop in the Academy proper.

bilston

George Saunderson and Oscar Egan are two names I see bandied about a bit as sub Academy props.

bilston

I didn't watch the match on Friday, but I did see the 4 minute highlights package on Facebook. How did Lowry go at 10 when he came on? I loved his break for Shanahan's try. I don't see Burns or Madigan doing that.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

George Saunderson and Oscar Egan are two names I see bandied about a bit as sub Academy props.

Aye course - heard about both of them.

BossMullet

David Drake has been appointed the new head of strength and conditioning at Worcester Warriors. Think that makes it 5 players/coaches from Ulster who are now at Worcester.

clsmooth

Jack McGrath undergoing hip surgery is disappointing. He never got back to the same level after the 2017 Lions tour. I presume this is big reason as to why. We saw how it impacted SOB.

arsebiscuits1

clsmooth wrote: »

Jack McGrath undergoing hip surgery is disappointing. He never got back to the same level after the 2017 Lions tour. I presume this is big reason as to why. We saw how it impacted SOB.

According to his Instagram he wasn't able to get more than 30 degree flexion on his hip for over a year.

That's astonishingly low range of motion.

How he was able to play pro rugby at all is beyond me. Poor fella must have been in agony

Former Former Former

clsmooth wrote: »

Jack McGrath undergoing hip surgery is disappointing. He never got back to the same level after the 2017 Lions tour. I presume this is big reason as to why. We saw how it impacted SOB.

I know the Lions tour is what everyone remembers he was still absolutely top class for a good year after that.

Would be great if he could get back for next season. Would still be plenty young to be an option at the RWC 2023.

Paul Smeenus

I see Rowan Osborne has gone from Leinster to Munster for next season.

Who was the last Ulster player to sign from another province (I mean their rugby team, not geographically)? Bill Johnston was two years ago, as was Jack McGrath. Madigan joined in the summer, but that was from Bristol.

We had a raft of young players who never got into the full Leinster Academy (O'Sullivan, Al O'Connor, Greg Jones) or left it (Nick Timoney) about four - eight years ago. Since then David O'Connor has come in, though he had been playing AIL. It seems like we have maybe moved past that sense of "bulking out" the squad with players from other provinces (Leinster 90% of the time.)

sydthebeat

probably Jordie in 2018 ?

Squidgy Black

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

I see Rowan Osborne has gone from Leinster to Munster for next season.

Who was the last Ulster player to sign from another province (I mean their rugby team, not geographically)? Bill Johnston was two years ago, as was Jack McGrath. Madigan joined in the summer, but that was from Bristol.

We had a raft of young players who never got into the full Leinster Academy (O'Sullivan, Al O'Connor, Greg Jones) or left it (Nick Timoney) about four - eight years ago. Since then David O'Connor has come in, though he had been playing AIL. It seems like we have maybe moved past that sense of "bulking out" the squad with players from other provinces (Leinster 90% of the time.)

Alby Mathewson technically?

Paul Smeenus

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Alby Mathewson technically?

Yeah, I think you're right.

Shanahan is a real Achilles' heel for us. If Mathewson hasn't gotten another year (which I imagine he hasn't) we really need to get Doak out against Munster and Leinster and start getting some game time.

I know I sound like a broken record but I think scrumhalf will be, by a distance, our weakest position next season. And Doak is very highly rated, and I really liked what I saw of Finlay for the U20s, so we know there's talent there.

Paul Smeenus

sydthebeat wrote: »

probably Jordie in 2018 ?

He was actually the year before Johnston and McGrath.

Do feel like Jordi has really come into his own in the second half of this season. Performances has improved hugely, has captained a few times.

Paul Smeenus

Just listened to Off the Ball - will we not have Murphy this weekend?

Paul Smeenus

Paul's Big Success Ulster Rugby Football Man Line-Up

1) Eric O'Sullivan
2) Rob Herring
3) Marty Moore
4) Iain Henderson
5) Al O'Connor
6) Sean Reidy
7) Jordi Murphy
8) Nick Timoney
9) John Cooney
10) Billy Burns
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) Stuart McCloskey
13) James Hume
14) Robert Baloucoune
15) Mike Lowry

16) Andy Warwick
17) John Andrew
18) Tom O'Toole
19) Kieran Treadwell
20) Matty Rea
21) Alby Mathewson
22) Ian Madigan
23) Will Addison

EOS has a great engine on him, but if it comes to it, Warwick can come on and settle the scrum. Other than Warwick, it's a good, dynamic bench, with a 21 - 23 suitable for either coming on and turning up the speed and creativity and scoring, or keeping us ahead with experienced positional play.

Buer

I'm curious as to how Ulster fans ultimately see Lowry working out. When he's back fit (and maybe as soon as this weekend), Addison is automatically in the Ulster team and probably the Irish 23 for me if he's in form. Stockdale and Baloucoune are clearly the wings.

So is Lowry going to usurp Burns at 10? He punches above his weight and Burns isn't exactly a physical specimen but I do get the impression from my limited watching of Lowry at outhalf that Burns is a better kicker from hand for the most part and a steadier player at 10. Lowry obviously is a far more dynamic and exciting threat in open play but that doesn't always equate to winning rugby. Obviously, at 22, Lowry can still develop significantly in that position and come into his own. Is that where people see him ending up?

It's an obvious question/suggestion given his size but has he ever lined out at scrum half at all or is the assumption that the ship has sailed on that at this point? I've seen back three players like Matt Healy and Ben Foden who started out as scrum halves at senior level but never the reverse for obvious reasons.

Locke_Lamora

Buer wrote: »

I'm curious as to how Ulster fans ultimately see Lowry working out. When he's back fit (and maybe as soon as this weekend), Addison is automatically in the Ulster team and probably the Irish 23 for me if he's in form. Stockdale and Baloucoune are clearly the wings.

So is Lowry going to usurp Burns at 10? He punches above his weight and Burns isn't exactly a physical specimen but I do get the impression from my limited watching of Lowry at outhalf that Burns is a better kicker from hand for the most part and a steadier player at 10. Lowry obviously is a far more dynamic and exciting threat in open play but that doesn't always equate to winning rugby. Obviously, at 22, Lowry can still develop significantly in that position and come into his own. Is that where people see him ending up?

It's an obvious question/suggestion given his size but has he ever lined out at scrum half at all or is the assumption that the ship has sailed on that at this point? I've seen back three players like Matt Healy and Ben Foden who started out as scrum halves at senior level but never the reverse for obvious reasons.

Honestly, I love watching him play but I reckon he'll just be a fantastic bench option for most of his career. Punches above his weight but still poor in defence and doesn't have the height to secure high balls or disrupt the opposition against quality back three players. He'll be targeted in the 10 channel every time as well and he'll definitely give up a fair few line breaks offloads. I like what I've seen in attack from him in both positions. Want to seem him in 10 more though - we have McIlory coming though at 15 and with stockdale and addison the incumbents when available. We have no young 10 prospects though, Burns gets injured easily and might still be away for ireland. Madigan getting older and not always the most inspiring option.

I'm a big proponent of getting better ball-players at 9 in Ireland, feel like we just want to move the athletic players wider when they're young. But surely the ship has sailed for lowry? Leinster's young 9's (Foley and O'Sullivan) haven't exactly inspired confidence and they both played 9 at interpro level despite not playing there in school.

bilston

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Honestly, I love watching him play but I reckon he'll just be a fantastic bench option for most of his career. Punches above his weight but still poor in defence and doesn't have the height to secure high balls or disrupt the opposition against quality back three players. He'll be targeted in the 10 channel every time as well and he'll definitely give up a fair few line breaks offloads. I like what I've seen in attack from him in both positions. Want to seem him in 10 more though - we have McIlory coming though at 15 and with stockdale and addison the incumbents when available. We have no young 10 prospects though, Burns gets injured easily and might still be away for ireland. Madigan getting older and not always the most inspiring option.

I'm a big proponent of getting better ball-players at 9 in Ireland, feel like we just want to move the athletic players wider when they're young. But surely the ship has sailed for lowry? Leinster's young 9's (Foley and O'Sullivan) haven't exactly inspired confidence and they both played 9 at interpro level despite not playing there in school.

I wouldn'tsay Lowry is "poor" in defence at all. He gives up a few kilos obviously, but poor is not the word I'd use to describe his D.

As for scrum half, I've wondered that myself. I suppose at school he had an excellent scrum half in his team already so it was probably never a consideration. 9 isn't really a position you could just pick up at 22 and expect to become a top top player...in my opinion anyway...

Buer

bilston wrote: »

I wouldn'tsay Lowry is "poor" in defence at all. He gives up a few kilos obviously, but poor is not the word I'd use to describe his D.

As for scrum half, I've wondered that myself. I suppose at school he had an excellent scrum half in his team already so it was probably never a consideration. 9 isn't really a position you could just pick up at 22 and expect to become a top top player...in my opinion anyway...

No, I suspect not. It's somewhere you really need to have a feel for and be comfortable in the mental side of the game, directing people, niggling etc. Even the defensive element is huge now with the scrum half playing as a sweeper. That doesn't just come to someone overnight.

Lowry just strikes me as someone that's almost too exciting/talented to leave out of the team but I don't see where he fits in precisely in the long term. Ulster have the best back three in Ireland, potentially so he's not going to end up there. Burns is only 26 also so it's not like Lowry knows he's going to have a clear run at outhalf in a few years.

Hey boy

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

...

I'm a big proponent of getting better ball-players at 9 in Ireland, feel like we just want to move the athletic players wider when they're young. But surely the ship has sailed for lowry? Leinster's young 9's (Foley and O'Sullivan) haven't exactly inspired confidence and they both played 9 at interpro level despite not playing there in school.

I favour this too but don't see this as something the IRFU prioritise. Examples:

Murray. IN
Cooney. OUT

Paul Smeenus

If he plays ten regularly, Lowry will occasionally get flattened. He's brave and his technique is spot on, he's just light

But there's no such thing as the complete player in any position. The formula is simple - by how much does the upside of playing him outweigh the downside of playing him? With Lowry, if he continues to improve, the answer could be, "by a considerable amount".

Having said that, while I think Addison is pure class, unless this surgery has done some real magic, he will be in and out constantly. Lowry may well spend some considerable time there. Although McIlroy looks the real deal as well.

TRC10

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Leinster's young 9's (Foley and O'Sullivan) haven't exactly inspired confidence and they both played 9 at interpro level despite not playing there in school.

Foley has played a grand total of 6 minutes for Leinster. You're going to pass judgement on a player based on 6 minutes in a friendly when the game was over?

stephen_n

TRC10 wrote: »

Foley has played a grand total of 6 minutes for Leinster. You're going to pass judgement on a player based on 6 minutes in a friendly when the game was over?

He played for the A team too and failed to impress. Still too early to say though.

Hey boy

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If he plays ten regularly, Lowry will occasionally get flattened. He's brave and his technique is spot on, he's just light

But there's no such thing as the complete player in any position. The formula is simple - by how much does the upside of playing him outweigh the downside of playing him? With Lowry, if he continues to improve, the answer could be, "by a considerable amount".

Having said that, while I think Addison is pure class, unless this surgery has done some real magic, he will be in and out constantly. Lowry may well spend some considerable time there. Although McIlroy looks the real deal as well.

There are more 9's than 10's in the Ulster pathway AFAIK.

damianmcr

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Paul's Big Success Ulster Rugby Football Man Line-Up

1) Eric O'Sullivan
2) Rob Herring
3) Marty Moore
4) Iain Henderson
5) Al O'Connor
6) Sean Reidy
7) Jordi Murphy
8) Nick Timoney
9) John Cooney
10) Billy Burns
11) Jacob Stockdale
12) Stuart McCloskey
13) James Hume
14) Robert Baloucoune
15) Mike Lowry

16) Andy Warwick
17) John Andrew
18) Tom O'Toole
19) Kieran Treadwell
20) Matty Rea
21) Alby Mathewson
22) Ian Madigan
23) Will Addison

EOS has a great engine on him, but if it comes to it, Warwick can come on and settle the scrum. Other than Warwick, it's a good, dynamic bench, with a 21 - 23 suitable for either coming on and turning up the speed and creativity and scoring, or keeping us ahead with experienced positional play.

Swap Reidy and Rea. Lowry on the bench. McIlroy on the wing. Stockdale at 15.

Locke_Lamora

TRC10 wrote: »

Foley has played a grand total of 6 minutes for Leinster. You're going to pass judgement on a player based on 6 minutes in a friendly when the game was over?

I've seen a fair bit of him tbf, he has been pretty poor at times for the A's. He's young and can get better, especially because of the lack of games over the last year but that only reinforces my point that scrumhalf isnt really a position that can be picked up so easily. Foley and O'sullivan both have experience at 9 but are still struggling to adapt to senior rugby. If they still need a lot more games to improve then what chance is there for lowry?

bilston

Rea, Murphy and Timoney is so military medium in the back row. Murphy is obviously very good, the other two are solid honest pros, but it is what it is.

Big game for Ethan McIlroy.

Paul Smeenus

Hey boy wrote: »

There are more 9's than 10's in the Ulster pathway AFAIK.

Ah, sorry - I wasn't referring to the idea of swapping Lowry to nine. I was just talking about the pros and cons of playing him at ten or fifteen.

I think asking him to line out at scrumhalf at this stage is a non-starter, and based on a fear of Lowry getting beaten up that seems entirely hypothetical.