Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Utah_Saint

Force out the coaching setup. We don't have rubbish players. We have a decent team with some potentially great players. Most of whom are playing like dross.

Since Dan missed out on the Leicester job he's like a jaded employee waiting for redundancy. Soper is a good skills coach, not an assistant. Bell, well I'm not sure how he keeps getting jobs

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645907#Comment_121645907

I have no clue what happens in Belfast during training. It's fair to suggest that this current stock are under performing.

molloyjh

I need to ask….what is sacking another coach going to actually do?

I agree that McFarland needs to go. He’s taken Ulster as far as he can and I don’t see things getting any better under him. But time after time over the last decade or so Ulster have been here. And the coach eventually left or got the sack. And another coach came in and inevitably Ulster ended up back in the same position.

I just don’t see Ulster getting to where they want to be unless there’s some real change in the organisation and the playing group. Changing the coach hasn’t worked the last few times they’ve done it. So the same change now is almost certainly not going to suddenly lead to a different result this time around.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121646056#Comment_121646056

That isn't anything to do with what I asked/posted though. ...

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121646222#Comment_121646222

True! My bad! I can't see how once in a while, Ulster play well and then revert to crap. Maybe the coaching mixed with culture is an issue?

launish116

Ulster need a complete reset without the no expectation of silver wear for 3-5 years.

Time spent building a core/squad depth that doesn't fall off a cliff after 1st string players gets injured. Are continued reliance on the same players week in week out...just look at the start of the season how many props we played to never be seen again. Players like Sheridan continued to perform and then go awol.

I look at NorthHamptons saints, read they decided they were light weight and took a 8 week training block preseason purely to bulk up. One player jumped 7kg. They just beat Munster at home with 14 men.

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121646127#Comment_121646127

Given McFarland has been here for 6 years I don't think it's correct to say we have sacked coach after coach over the last decade.

Changing the coach last time did work. McFarland definitely took Ulster forward in his first 3 years, but we have since stagnated and are now going backwards. Every coach has a shelf life...every coach...Schmidt, Kidney, O'Sullivan, the same will happen with Farrell...Ulster 100% need a change. But Ulster can't afford to pay McFarland off. Maybe it might be more affordable at the end of this season as he will only have one year left.

The rest of your post is correct, there needs to change elsewhere in the organisation.

But in terms of this playing group, in the short term I think a new coaching team would make a significant difference...obviously it has to be the right team.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121645798#Comment_121645798

He was pretty excellent from last August onwards for Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651493#Comment_121651493

Pretty excellent is a stretch isn’t it though?

He played well-ish in some of the warm up games. I don’t (and most others don’t) put any real store in performances against non tier 1 sides (but equally don’t recall him being particularly stand out in those games).

He came off the bench for the last 25 mins v SA and was fine. Averaged a player rating of 6.5 across 6 publications I could find who rated Ireland’s players there.

He played well against Scotland - I’ll give him that, but he was abjectly awful against NZ when it mattered - one of the poorest and least impactful forwards on the day. Never rated better than a 6/10 with any publication, but plenty of 4s, 5s and 5.5 ratings of his performance that day.

Funnily - I accidentally clicked into a couple of ratings from the 2019 QF when looking for these ones and he was slated for his performance back then too, averaging 5/10.

I’m not saying he isn’t a good player, and I’m not saying he hasn’t had plenty of adequate to good games for Ireland.

What I am saying is he has close to zero dominant 10/10 style days. James Ryan and Tadhg Beirne have stacked up those sort of performances multiple times for Ireland on the biggest days. I can’t find a game online (I’m sure there is one somewhere) where Henderson got a MotM for Ireland.

He’s a guy who for years it felt like his ‘potential’ saw him keep getting selected, and then before we knew it he was 31 and in my opinion he never became the player we all thought he could have become.

Locke_Lamora

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652081#Comment_121652081

No, people only though he was getting selected on 'potential' because he was displacing other provinces favourites. He was better than the competition as much as it hurts them to admit.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652572#Comment_121652572

It's nothing to do with petty provincialism - it's a guy who too often doesn't deliver on the biggest days.

Who is he displacing anyway? He hasn't been a regular Irish starter for years now. Of his 73 Ireland caps, he's been off the bench for around 40% of those.

If the team is picked for this 6 Nations on form and ability right now too, he should be rightly on the outside too behind Beirne, Ryan and McCarthy.

ljsulster

Iain Henderson has captained the Lions and been on two tours (selected by the Leinster forwards coach ahead of James Ryan might I add)- to say he was only picked on potential is harsh imo

launish116

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652713#Comment_121652713

To quote Sean O'Brien Ireland wins when Henderson Plays, albeit a few years ago now.

He's at the latter end of his career with a large injury profile.

When he captained Ireland, he basically dragged Ireland through a number of games personally.

Very few players perform at the top rank 100% consistently but to say Henderson fails to deliver to often is a disgrace.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652855#Comment_121652855

He did absolutely nothing on those Lions tours either, and never came close to a test team. He was selected because he has all the attributes you want in a big, athletic, mobile lock - he just too often doesn't deliver.

The James Ryan comparison is a good one - because despite a slight lull in his form following a really hot start, I think it's easy for people to point to multiple days where he repeatedly delivered for Ireland on the biggest stage. He's a better player who's had a way better career than Iain Henderson to this point (despite being 4 years younger), and the comparison there is a good reminder of how Lions selection rarely enough tells the whole story.

=

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652926#Comment_121652926

Once again - highlight these games so where he's been a huge difference maker for Ireland? It's hard to find games where he's even the best Irish second row on the pitch.

People keep responding saying I'm being unfair, but I not unreasonably asked for people to provide actual evidence of these so called multiple great performances he's delivered a few times now, and all I'm getting in return is repeated retorts of what a great player he is.

launish116

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652979#Comment_121652979

He was competing for a spot against Courtney Lawes, who could easily play Blindside/Second Row during the lions and on both occasions lost out to him.

As I Previously said there was a period he was Caption, he basically carried the Ireland Team. There was one game against France I think?

It's easy to sit an criticise him saying he isn't the best second row on the pitch, when for all we know his role is unlocking the best out of the other players. You could as easily say Gary Ringrose has been awol for a number of games and isn't tearing it up on the basis his centre partner Aki has constantly out shawn him.

He obviously has brought something to the table, something above average that multiple coaches, have decided he is worthy of 70+ caps and 2 lions tours. This not forget he doesn't have Dublin based media shining sun up his arse.

He's in the winding down age of his career and there's no doubt he's benching/being leapfrogged but to say he hasn't been worthy of where he has got based on averageness is a true disservice.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653085#Comment_121653085

This is laughable - you genuinely can't think of games where he was supposedly so stellar:

There was one game against France I think?

He came in (after James Ryan got injured) and captained Ireland for the first time in Feb 2021, a 15-13 loss at home to France, and came off after 41 minutes.

He played out the remainder of that season, and played pretty well, earning his Lions call up (also influenced by injuries etc, not least James Ryan's repeated HIA issues).

He was okay in these games, but not dominant, and the fact we're digging back 3 years now to find these games pretty much speaks to my point.

It's easy to sit an criticise him saying he isn't the best second row on the pitch, when for all we know his role is unlocking the best out of the other players.

Ah, this old chestnut. Beloved cliche of fans of players who don't appear to be making a difference on the pitch - it must be the infamous "unseen work".

You could as easily say Gary Ringrose has been awol for a number of games and isn't tearing it up on the basis his centre partner Aki has constantly out shawn him.

This isn't true though - Ringrose has had some poorer days for Ireland, but saying Aki consistently "out shawn him" is a stretch - Bundee was better by the RWC but he was playing at an elite level (WPOTY nominee). Ringrose was on spectacular form the previous 6N and outshone Aki there.

He obviously has brought something to the table, something above average that multiple coaches, have decided he is worthy of 70+ caps and 2 lions tours.

This, IMO, is as much about the paucity of alternative options for a lot of that tenure. He has been around a long time (Irish debut in 2012) but has almost always been supplanted by other players emerging, and James Ryan and Tadhg Beirne are both clearly, heads and shoulders better players than him.

This not forget he doesn't have Dublin based media shining sun up his arse.

Laughable comment. He's gotten an incredibly easy time of it from the press in reality for a guy who rarely delivers yet has been ever present.

I've no interest in continuing to just engage with your repeated assertions that he's a great player, without anything substantial to back it up. If you genuinely can't even think of a handful of really strong, impactful performances from him, then that pretty much sums it up.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653085#Comment_121653085

It's easy to sit an criticise him saying he isn't the best second row on the pitch, when for all we know his role is unlocking the best out of the other players.

I'd 100% agree with that, fwiw. Pointing to MOTM awards (or lack thereof) doesn't really tell the full story. He's akin to Jean Kleyn for Munster, who got 1 solitarty MOTM award last season, but was Munster's player of the season.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653248#Comment_121653248

He has one thing in common with Jean Kleyn - he's overhyped by his own fans.

Kleyn had a really good season last year, but was pretty bang average for years prior to that.

Henderson does not have a track record of difference making performances for Ireland. He's had some games like that for Ulster, sure, where he looks like the best player on the pitch, but almost none of late for Ireland.

I'm not here saying he's a terrible player, I'm saying he had the potential years ago to have been an elite, top tier player and IMO he never got there. He is 100% a guy who has gone missing on big days (for both Ireland and Ulster) on multiple occasions, and is prone to silly mental errors like drifting away from a pillar position at rucks, making silly handling errors or missing tackles.

This all started because he was utterly abject in Ulster's full blown capitulation to Quins on Saturday, something which happens to them all too often. If he's the leader and standard setter in that dressing room, then it makes perfect sense to me why there is so much quit in them as a team.

bilston

Jeepers there's a lot of passion from Lord Palmerston.

Personally I think Henderson has been good for Ireland, he always brings huge physicality and that quote from Sean O'Brien is spot on, Ireland usually win when Henderson plays.

That said I think he'll do well to make the 23 for France, but I reckon he'll feature at some point during the Championship.

bilston

Actually reading some of LP's posts he really does have a problem with Hendy. Very odd. Ryan and Beirne are absolutely not hesd and shoulders above Henderson, that is absolute drivel.

launish116

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653272#Comment_121653272

I really don't know how he can be held personally for Quinns capitulation, nor can one player carry a hole team. What exactly could he have changed for the first 3 soft tries? Ulster is wrotten from top to Bottom and that can't be layed at his door solely. HE has done more than his fair share for Ulster over the years.

Could Henderson of peaked higher in his career? yes potentially but so could anyone! but some of your criticism is very harsh for a player with 70+ caps if he is as average as you believe, especially under a Joe Schmitt era?

You laugh at Kleyn and his overhyped fans, I'm sure he's worried with his wold cup medal whilst we feel sorry for ourselves stuck in the quarters yet again.

I don't disagree with a lot of what your saying, your rational is sound I just think it's little harsh especially when you start mentioning "on multiple occasions, and is prone to silly mental errors like drifting away from a pillar position at rucks, making silly handling errors or missing tackles" that could be any player.

Locke_Lamora

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653272#Comment_121653272

100% does not mean what you seem to think it means.

This did not all start because he had a poor game against harlequins, this all started because you’ve had a little fit and tried to demean his entire career and body of work.

Great player, poor injury history, anyone who tries to argue otherwise is not doing do so good faith imo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653349#Comment_121653349

Yeah, look I honestly didn't mean for this to start out as some sort of crusade against Iain Henderson. It just struck me during that game (and the game the week before) this kind of frustrating view that he never realised his potential, and became the player we all thought he could be back around 2014/2015. I thought after his performances on the South Africa tour in 2016 that he'd kick on from there and go to the next level, but it's my honest view that he just didn't.

I know he's had a lot of injuries and lost some of his dynamism, but for me there is still a trend of high quality Ulster talents not really realising their potential under McFarland.

The O'Brien quote is trotted out a lot, but, for me, if you go back over a lot of Ireland's landmark wins in recent years Henderson either wasn't present or only had an adjacent role in the performance:

-Ireland 40 New Zealand 29 - Chicago - Nov 2016 (second rows: Devin Toner & Donnacha Ryan, Ultan Dillane in after 64 mins).

-Ireland 19 France 9 - Dublin - Feb 2017 (second rows: Devin Toner & Donnacha Ryan, Henderson on after 55 mins)

-Ireland 26 Australia 21 - Melbourne - June 2018 (second rows: James Ryan & Devin Toner, Tadhg Beirne on bench - Henderson had started and played poorly in the first test loss)

-Ireland 20 Australia 16 - Sydney, June 2018 (same second row trio, Toner, James Ryan & Beirne)

-Ireland 16 New Zealand 9 - Dublin - Nov 2018 (second row: Ryan & Toner, Henderson on for last 20 mins)

-Ireland 29 New Zealand 20 - Dublin - Nov 2021 - Henderson started alongside Ryan, but replaced by Beirne after just 47 mins

-Both winning tests in NZ in 2022 - Henderson missed that tour.

-Ireland 19 South Africa 16 - Nov 2022, Dublin - second row was Ryan & Beirne, with Treadwell off the bench

-Ireland 13 Australia 10 - Nov 2022, Dublin - second row was Ryan & Beirne, with Joe McCarthy off the bench

-Ireland 32 France 19 - Feb 2023, Dublin - second row was Ryan & Beirne, Henderson came off the bench for an injured Beirne and played fine

-Ireland 29 England 16 - Mar 2023, Dublin - second row was Ryan & Baird, with Treadwell off the bench

-Ireland 13 South Africa 8, Sept 2023, Paris - second row was Ryan & Beirne, Henderson came on for last 30

That's the bulk of our defining wins in recent years, and it's clear from looking at the list that Henderson was at best present for some of them, but missed a lot entirely.

His only real extensive stint as an Irish starter was the kind of brief period post Devin Toner, and pre Tadhg Beirne's full emergence. He was in the row for a lot of the abysmal 2019 season (alongside Kleyn for the abject 57-15 Twickenham humbling, was hauled off after an hour in the Japan loss, and after 48 mins in the QF capitulation v NZ).

For the sake of balance, the below are games where I felt he had a good game and made a big impact for Ireland:

-March 2017: Ireland 13 England 9, Dublin - Henderson played 80 alongside Ryan

-Nov 2017: Ireland 38 South Africa 3, Dublin

-and a lot of the 2018 6N success - started in wins against France & England

-possibly his last really good game: March 2022: Ireland beat England 32-15 in Twickenham, Henderson replaced a concussed James Ryan after 1 min and played well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653358#Comment_121653358

That really isn't.

I've just given a list of big wins for Ireland in recent years where it's obvious Henderson is almost entirely absent, or playing a bit part role off the bench at best. In recent years, Beirne & Ryan have been common denominators in Ireland's absolute best periods.

Ryan was probably Ireland's player of the tournament in the 2022 Grand Slam campaign, and was close to it in 2018 as well. Beirne's performances in New Zealand in 2022 (and across a multitude of other games) have hit heights that Henderson never reached.

Could compare their CVs at club level too, but it's a pointless exercise. Beirne won two URC titles and won a Player's Player of the Year Award in the URC (in a different season to the ones where he won championships), while Ryan has won a European Cup, 4 URCs and won an IRUPA Player's Player of the Year Award.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653436#Comment_121653436

It started because he has had a number of really poor games in big spots, but it seems to be an utter blind spot for fans.

Despite repeated requests from me here from people to call out examples of great performances from him as part of this "great career" I've received zero responses. He was a passenger for a good amount of the "success" Ireland have had. He was called up for two Lions tours but never made a test squad (lost out to Adam Beard in the 3rd Test in SA ffs).

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653605#Comment_121653605

Loathe to get into this... but an observation.

Henderson doesn't make the 3rd Lions test squad:

lost out to Adam Beard in the 3rd Test in SA ffs.

James Ryan doesn't get selected for the Lions:

a good reminder of how Lions selection rarely enough tells the whole story.

The guys has his achievements. 73 Test caps and 2 Lions tours. If it's a blind spot for fans, it's a blind spot for coaches too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653654#Comment_121653654

Yeah, across the board, I think it's fair to say Warren Gatland has done damage to the reputation of the Lions with some frankly silly Welsh-centric selections (the Geography 6 in 2017 a notorious example), and it's hard to read much into it. I don't for a second think Beard is a better player than Henderson, but his lack of test caps on both tours are symptomatic of how poorly he played in the non-test games on both tours.

James Ryan wasn't around in 2017 (made his Ireland debut that summer) and was injured with repeated concussions in 2021 (Gatland said he "wanted to take Ryan in 2021").

The guys has his achievements. 73 Test caps and 2 Lions tours. If it's a blind spot for fans, it's a blind spot for coaches too.

Once again - for probably the fourth time on this thread - I'm not disputing he's a good player who has had a perfectly solid career, but he is not and has never really been an elite, top tier international second row. His absolute failure at any point over his 12 year international career to entrench himself as a consistent starter for Ireland is probably the very best example of that.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121653349#Comment_121653349

With 17 wins on the trot, Ireland usually wins, full stop. Henderson hasn't contributed a massive amount to that either

Dubinusa

Henderson is my favorite Ulster player. He's been hampered by injury throughout his career. He's had a very good career, despite the injuries. When Ryan had a lull due to concussions , I worried for his future. Henderson is similar in a way. I believe he had hip/back problems in 2014? He's also had ankle problems which is similar to Furlong. Furlong has been absent for 18 months! It's harsh to say a player disappears even though he's the guy selected time after time. As far as Ulster goes, he's played approximately 120 times in 12 years. Mostly due to injury! So yea, he's had a stop/start career and has been consistently a top 2 or 3 lock in Ireland.