Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Money in private schools.

It's the same in Leinster though...

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvedere College, Clongowes etc etc

Up here we have Inst, Methody, Campbell, Ballymena Academy and Wallace etc.

The Lost Sheep

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Money in private schools.

Big time

RedRaider0 wrote: »

Ulster u18 schools side are generally very competitive with leinster u18 schools.

Are they though? Rarely beat them. Won interpro title twice in 15 years.

bilston wrote: »

It's the same in Leinster though...

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvedere College, Clongowes etc etc

Up here we have Inst, Methody, Campbell, Ballymena Academy and Wallace etc.

Not the same though. Investment in the sport in those schools in Leinster is multitudes of what it is in many of those schools in Ulster

awec

bilston wrote: »

It's the same in Leinster though...

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvedere College, Clongowes etc etc

Up here we have Inst, Methody, Campbell, Ballymena Academy and Wallace etc.

Ulster has no fee paying schools any more.

We can say we want to get closer to Leinster's academy output and repeat it until we're blue in the face. It's not going to happen until the money spent in Ulster schools on rugby gets closer to Leinster schools.

RedRaider0

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Are they though? Rarely beat them. Won interpro title twice in 15 years.

in the last 5 years yes.

Paul Smeenus

There's a great deal of disingenuousness to this conversation. ( I don't know why "disingenuity" isn't a word.)

No other province is going to be able to ape Leinster's academy set-up. Population and the huge amounts of money sloshing about in the private schools produce a top tier of kids who have had the best coaching and professional support money can buy before they set foot in an academy corridor. It can't be replicated elsewhere, so if your academy is either Leinster level or a failure, I'm sorry, everyone else's is a failure. Ours, Munster's, Ospreys, Edinburgh's, Scarlets', Leicester's, Wasps's, Toulouse's, Racing's etc. Either Leinster's is the only successful academy, or we have a more nuanced analysis.

We are the second best team in the league. Would we be so without McGrath (currently a very able second choice) or Murphy (who seems to be falling off, but has been a mainstay for us in his time here)? No, is the simple answer.

What Leinster do have is, in Lancaster, a coach that can absolutely get the most out of that relationship between the senior set-up and the academy. The same disparity between our academy and Leinster's existed when Matt O'Connor was in charge. In fact, the disparity was probably greater. But the gap wasn't so unbridgable. That's because O'Connor wasn't nearly the coach Lancaster is. So for Leinster fans imagining that this will be the norm forever, there'll be tears before bedtime in the future. A couple of seasons with Declan Kidney at teh helm of Leinster the gap rightly.

RedRaider0

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

There's a great deal of disingenuousness to this conversation. ( I don't know why "disingenuity" isn't a word.)

No other province is going to be able to ape Leinster's academy set-up. Population and the huge amounts of money sloshing about in the private schools produce a top tier of kids who have had the best coaching and professional support money can buy before they set foot in an academy corridor. It can't be replicated elsewhere, so if your academy is either Leinster level or a failure, I'm sorry, everyone else's is a failure. Ours, Munster's, Ospreys, Edinburgh's, Scarlets', Leicester's, Wasps's, Toulouse's, Racing's etc. Either Leinster's is the only successful academy, or we have a more nuanced analysis.

We are the second best team in the league. Would we be so without McGrath (currently a very able second choice) or Murphy (who seems to be falling off, but has been a mainstay for us in his time here)? No, is the simple answer.

What Leinster do have is, in Lancaster, a coach that can absolutely get the most out of that relationship between the senior set-up and the academy. The same disparity between our academy and Leinster's existed when Matt O'Connor was in charge. In fact, the disparity was probably greater. But the gap wasn't so unbridgable. That's because O'Connor wasn't nearly the coach Lancaster is. So for Leinster fans imagining that this will be the norm forever, there'll be tears before bedtime in the future. A couple of seasons with Declan Kidney at teh helm of Leinster the gap rightly.

I don't think any leinster fan underestimates the impact of Lancaster and he is the main reason leinster are so far ahead of the others.. because the gap at underage level isn't that big between leinster and ulster.

awec

The solution is simple, the IRFU need to impose Les Kiss on Leinster for a few years.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

It's the same in Leinster though...

Blackrock, St Michaels, Belvedere College, Clongowes etc etc

Up here we have Inst, Methody, Campbell, Ballymena Academy and Wallace etc.

Awec is right. They are apples and oranges.

I went to one of those schools and played rugby. My ma and da, I think, paid about a hundred quid per term for me to go. Lads in those Southern schools I played against had pens that cost more than my year's schooling.

Paul Smeenus

RedRaider0 wrote: »

I don't think any leinster fan underestimates the impact of Lancaster and he is the main reason leinster are so far ahead of the others.. because the gap at underage level isn't that big between leinster and ulster.

No, my point is just that it's not irreversible or guaranteed.

And I second the Les Kiss to Leinster call. For the good of the league.

Squidgy Black

A year in the likes of Michael's, with the added cost of playing rugby for the firsts, for one student would cost the same as it would for an entire first team in Wallace.

Paul Smeenus

One of those young, uber-competitive Leinster backrowers will be the Irish Boris Johnston or Jacob Rees-Mogg when he retires from rugby.

awec

This is my point, we are pissing into the wind. There is only so much scope for improvement.

- If Ulster want success in the short term then money needs sunk into the senior squad.
- If Ulster want sustained success in the long term then big money needs sunk into the schools and underage setups.

It is not a case of just trying harder.

I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that signing Leinster rejects is not going to make us as good as Leinster, but that is where we are right now.

Jordi Murphy moved to Ulster to improve his Ireland prospects. In reality all that happened was he cleared space at Leinster for multiple players who are better than he is to be promoted to the senior team. Ulster improved, but Leinster improved even more. How do you compete with this?

RedRaider0

Leinster have nothing to do with Ulster's inability to produce a decent homegrown forward this decade outside of Iain Henderson.

awec

RedRaider0 wrote: »

Leinster have nothing to do with Ulster's inability to produce a decent homegrown forward this decade outside of Iain Henderson.

Of course they don't, nobody suggested such a silly thing.

The lack of money and talent available in Ulster is the reason.

RedRaider0

awec wrote: »

Of course they don't, nobody suggested such a silly thing.

The lack of money and talent available in Ulster is the reason.

to suggest there is not enough money or talent in ulster underage rugby would be disingenuous

ulster needed to sort out there development pathways, which they did eventually around midway through the 2010's and this has been reflected in forward talent coming through system.

launish116

Has there ever been an independent review on our academy, pathway etc? With problems identified and recommendations made?

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Awec is right. They are apples and oranges.

I went to one of those schools and played rugby. My ma and da, I think, paid about a hundred quid per term for me to go. Lads in those Southern schools I played against had pens that cost more than my year's schooling.

I'm talking more about quality of rugby though, I went to one of those schools as well, and Id be very surprised if any of the Dublin schools had a better coach than we had.

I suppose there is more money going around for stuff like S&C...and thats maybe why there is a gap. Leinster schoolboys are half reared by the time they leave school, the Ulster lads usually take a bit longer.

awec

bilston wrote: »

I'm talking more about quality of rugby though, I went to one of those schools as well, and Id be very surprised if any of the Dublin schools had a better coach than we had.

I suppose there is more money going around for stuff like S&C...and thats maybe why there is a gap. Leinster schoolboys are half reared by the time they leave school, the Ulster lads usually take a bit longer.

How many coaches did your school have that were not teachers doing extra-curricular bits?

Paul Smeenus

awec wrote: »

How many coaches did your school have that were not teachers doing extra-curricular bits?

Even our top man, who would subsequently coach Ulster to an HEC final, was a teacher who had to feign interest in eleven year olds smacking each other in the face in dodgeball, Bronze Swimming certificates and the pastoral problems facing a year group of disgruntled, lazy teenagers.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Even our top man, who would subsequently coach Ulster to an HEC final, was a teacher who had to feign interest in eleven year olds smacking each other in the face in dodgeball, Bronze Swimming certificates and the pastoral problems facing a year group of disgruntled, lazy teenagers.

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

RedRaider0

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

what was Dan Sopers role at RBAI?

what is Ian McKinleys role at Ballymena Academy?

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

afaik he was a teacher there for about 8 years while he held that role, and its only the last couple of years thats hes not teaching. not sure its full time either.

Paul Smeenus

RedRaider0 wrote: »

what was Dan Sopers role at RBAI?

what is Ian McKinleys role at Ballymena Academy?

Soper had the same role. Presumably, like the current Director of Rugby, he actually coached other sports as well (the current Director also coaches cricket teams.)

And Ian McKinley's role is at the Academy is an unspecified coaching role, which he will fit in around his actual job, as backs coach of Rainey Old Boys RFC.

Paul Smeenus

In fact, Soper was the Head Coach of Banbridge at the same time as being the Director of Rugby at Inst.

Andy Skehan used to double up at UCD and St Michael's, but now just St Michael's, I think, since he stopped teaching full time as well?

mfceiling

I did a few days work in Michael's back in 2015 or 2016.

I'm an early riser and starter so I was there at 6.30 to have my coffee and listen to the radio. There were kids already in the gym working out at that time!!

These schools are feeding one or two players every year into the Leinster academy and these lads are well able to hit the ground running.

Ulster are doing their best through the schools etc but they will always be playing catch up to Leinster.

Do Munster and Connacht have a big school selection of lads coming through? You'd have to wonder where their next bunch of big names are coming from if not the schools.

The Lost Sheep

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

In fact, Soper was the Head Coach of Banbridge at the same time as being the Director of Rugby at Inst.

Andy Skehan used to double up at UCD and St Michael's, but now just St Michael's, I think, since he stopped teaching full time as well?

involved Leinster age grade as well which is primarily summer.

mfceiling wrote: »

I did a few days work in Michael's back in 2015 or 2016.

I'm an early riser and starter so I was there at 6.30 to have my coffee and listen to the radio. There were kids already in the gym working out at that time!!

These schools are feeding one or two players every year into the Leinster academy and these lads are well able to hit the ground running.

Ulster are doing their best through the schools etc but they will always be playing catch up to Leinster.

Do Munster and Connacht have a big school selection of lads coming through? You'd have to wonder where their next bunch of big names are coming from if not the schools.

Connacht all play schools and clubs there isnt any difference. Kids play mid week for school then weekend for their club.
Munster are trying to close gap with changes to schools competitions, club competitions but its taking time....

Guinness RFC

awec wrote: »

I believe Michaels have a Directory of Rugby.

I coached Andy Skehan when he was in first year. He was a C team player. The question is were the people in the over funded rugby programme there actually any good as players? A coach has to set an example to be good. He has to have done himself what he asks of his players IMO. To succeed at the very top and consistently win cups. Or at the very least respect him enough to break their necks for him (I know people will point out this is incorrect but it applies here)

They have got a good professional set up but perhaps are lacking in the last few percentile when it comes to producing the best players. What I mean by that is for all the players contracted to Leinster from Michaels - how many are absolute certainties on the first team team sheet? IMO only one - James Ryan. Any school can churn out dozens of average players but the school has a way to go yet to produce a steady stream of top class players like Clongowes or Rock.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqt34fr1VBA

Whatever else, Madigan is disarmingly, likably honest.

Think we'll get tanked on Sunday. Amongst other things, Madigan is pretty unguarded about the difficulty, with this massively disrupted season, of getting in the right space mentally to compete in this other competition when your biggest game of the season was the previous one. We're not at the level we could hope to win the European cup unless there were astonishing results or circumstances. But the Pro14, IF WE'D CHOSEN TO KICK SOME POINTS, IAIN, was more within our reach. So this game, honestly, may be hard to get in gear for.

Still, it's the game of the weekend.

Digifriendly

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqt34fr1VBA

Whatever else, Madigan is disarmingly, likably honest.

Think we'll get tanked on Sunday. Amongst other things, Madigan is pretty unguarded about the difficulty, with this massively disrupted season, of getting in the right space mentally to compete in this other competition when your biggest game of the season was the previous one. We're not at the level we could hope to win the European cup unless there were astonishing results or circumstances. But the Pro14, IF WE'D CHOSEN TO KICK SOME POINTS, IAIN, was more within our reach. So this game, honestly, may be hard to get in gear for.

Still, it's the game of the weekend.

Unsure how its the game of the weekend when you think Ulster will get tanked. Even without Owen Farrell I think Leinster vs Saracens will be a tasty affair.

Paul Smeenus

Digifriendly wrote: »

Unsure how its the game of the weekend when you think Ulster will get tanked. Even without Owen Farrell I think Leinster vs Saracens will be a tasty affair.

Unsure how you've lasted this long on boards without the capacity to pick up on others' tongue in cheek humour...

[I was tempted to double down and say no, "Leinster vs Saracens will be sh!te and meaningless without Farrell, roll on Sunday", but I couldn't deal with the seven-page fallout]