Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Paul Smeenus

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

There are players there though, that’s another big difference between Ulster/Munster and Leinster. Flannery,Healy,Ahern,Hodnett etc for Munster I’m not as familiar with Ulster but definitely someone like McCann,Allison,Rea etc would be looked at but instead of that the two rather be safe and settle on guys like Haley,Holland,Hanrahan,Cloete/O’Donnell and just happily take their inevitable beat down in a SF against a team much happier at using the resources at their disposal. You could see today Ulster had given up before a ball was kicked, they knew they did have a chance and played accordingly. It may be good enough to get you to the QF and in Munsters case possibly a semi but when you play a Racing, Saracens etc you’re safety first selections will be found out by sides willing to take more risks. Nothing will change as long as these teams settle journeymen not good enough or just the same safe selections just because they have done it in the past attitude. You’ll see come the CC in November Munster and Ulster will play the same journeymen, nothing will be learnt and we will be having the same discussion at the same stage next season if not sooner.

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

Better than McCall is not much of a barometer.

UAEguy2020

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Journeymen like Tom O'Toole? James Hume? Michael Lowry? Robert Baloucoune? Eric O'Sullivan?

This narrative about Ulster and journeymen is, frankly, out of date. Just part of the wider histrionics.

We've been on the wrong side of an ugly, ugly scoreline today, and that's colouring everything. We have just played three knock-out games. If you think that's the time to drop David McCann in, well, then good luck to you.

We have demonstrably come on. I said it earlier n the thread - two seasons ago we were scrapping with Ospreys to earn a place in Europe, having come seventh in the league. In these last two season, between both competitions, we have had five knock-out games.

What you don't get to do, is snap your fingers and the new players are there. All this p!ssing and moaning about Jack McGrath not having improved Ulster - is he the player he once was, on the Lions? No. Is he better than Kyle McCall? Uhhhh... yes. Was I happier to see him pack down against a Toulouse front row than Andy Warwick? Yes. Ask Leinster about how easy it is to win when your front row is being humiliated.

We looked gassed and lacking self-belief today. It was heart-breaking. But there seems to be a school of though that if you're not at the top table in two years under a new coach, nothing has improved. Or that we haven't shaken off past problems with previous coaches' approach to selection. Both are simply wide of the mark. There's a new season starting - let's see what happens with selection.

I do think Ulster have been FAR better at bringing through talent but still places like the back row are places that need to be filled. I’m okay with players like Coetzee & Cooney for instances as they make a huge difference but then guys like Faddes,Carter...really? I wouldn’t have dropped McCann in today ofcourse but it’s quite clear that one area of the pitch Ulster need to start integrating talent in is BR but again so many journeymen who just tow the line.

I do think Ulster are going in the right direction and will only get better as they do have a strong academy but do I think Ulster are getting the best out of their resources? No, better than Munster without question because no team is better at wasting their resources than Munster but again instead of journeymen like Carter other young players should be looked at, what did he even do today? Atleast a young player who comes on will fight for the jersey of the team they grew up supporting. Next season Ulster will have a lot of Young players to potentially add to the current batch in McCann, Allison, Rea(hopefully being finally kicks on), Stewart (if he’s ready), Moore,Sexton,McElroy maybe even one of the scrum halves etc Ulster need to focus on players like these than players like Faddes and Carter who if they can’t get the basics right are no better options than at least taking a risk on one of these lads.

launish116

There is talent sitting waiting to be integrated from the academy! We just need this season to integrate by choice not when we’re forced by injury.

Is it time Ulster stop the bravado of hunting silverware and get realistic that it will come with work. Time to take one step back so they can take two steps forwards?

Paul Smeenus

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I do think Ulster have been FAR better at bringing through talent but still places like the back row are places that need to be filled. I’m okay with players like Coetzee & Cooney for instances as they make a huge difference but then guys like Faddes,Carter...really? I wouldn’t have dropped McCann in today ofcourse but it’s quite clear that one area of the pitch Ulster need to start integrating talent in is BR but again so many journeymen who just tow the line.

I do think Ulster are going in the right direction and will only get better as they do have a strong academy but do I think Ulster are getting the best out of their resources? No, better than Munster without question because no team is better at wasting their resources than Munster but again instead of journeymen like Carter other young players should be looked at, what did he even do today? Atleast a young player who comes on will fight for the jersey of the team they grew up supporting. Next season Ulster will have a lot of Young players to potentially add to the current batch in McCann, Allison, Rea(hopefully being finally kicks on), Stewart (if he’s ready), Moore,Sexton,McElroy maybe even one of the scrum halves etc Ulster need to focus on players like these than players like Faddes and Carter who if they can’t get the basics right are no better options than at least taking a risk on one of these lads.

Now this I think is spot on.

Paul Smeenus

launish116 wrote: »

There is talent sitting waiting to be integrated from the academy! We just need this season to integrate by choice not when we’re forced by injury.

Is it time Ulster stop the bravado of hunting silverware and get realistic that it will come with work. Time to take one step back so they can take two steps forwards?

No, I don't think so. I understand the logic, but I think one or maybe two youngsters earning a place in tough, high-pressure games is the way to go, and to do that you still need to be in the hunt. No point bring the younger guys through winning against the Dragons and learning from close loses to Munster and Edinburgh, to finally find yourself as the lowest ranked of the teams in your group in Europe. You're simply making life much tougher for yourself.

I wouldn't now panic, if we have to play Hume, Lowry or Lyttle in European matches or a ProWhatever QF or SF. And Baloucoune will rightly be one of the first names on the team sheet. My misgivings about O'Sullivan or O'Toole in the scrums have at least partially been settled - they've held their own against some decent front rows. That's been them playing and earning their places in those games.

What we now need is to see the same things start to happen at second row and back row, and the first appearances of youngsters at scrumhalf and prop.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

No, I don't think so. I understand the logic, but I think one or maybe two youngsters earning a place in tough, high-pressure games is the way to go, and to do that you still need to be in the hunt. No point bring the younger guys through winning against the Dragons and learning from close loses to Munster and Edinburgh, to finally find yourself as the lowest ranked of the teams in your group in Europe. You're simply making life much tougher for yourself.

I wouldn't now panic, if we have to play Hume, Lowry or Lyttle in European matches or a ProWhatever QF or SF. And Baloucoune will rightly be one of the first names on the team sheet. My misgivings about O'Sullivan or O'Toole in the scrums have at least partially been settled - they've held their own against some decent front rows. That's been them playing and earning their places in those games.

What we now need is to see the same things start to happen at second row and back row, and the first appearances of youngsters at scrumhalf and prop.

I think it’s more for how many seasons have we heard? “World domination” “Silverware” etc. Think it’s time to stop banging that drum. Remove some of the pressure.

I Agree with what your saying, tough matches develop better players. What I’m getting at is until we freely integrate and rotate players we’re always gonna flog players. Until we snap out of the full strength team ratio needed to win every game, we’ll never full progress. I agree totally with what your saying about not panicking with Lowry, Hume starting etc now. But we need that for all replacements going forward.

We could now be potentially starting the season without Coetzee and McCloskey (worse case scenario). Here’s the issue who replaces them long term?

Sorry in advance, I understand what I mean just struggle to put it in words!

Paul Smeenus

Don't be silly, no need to apologise.

Yeah, the reign of Shane "All Talk" Logan has resulted in a lot of people having a real lack of patience with Ulster. But that was just Logan. I know that's why folk feel jaded, but it has been quite a few year since Logan pontificating that world domination was just round the corner.

But I think that since McF and Petrie took over, it's all been about honest toil and improvement.

In all honesty, if McCloskey was out, I'd have no issue with having Hume at 12 instead of him - that's been his usual position coming up anyway, I think. Or Curtis, who has hints of being a distributing, kicking twelve (if he can stop being injured).

We have no-one near to Coetzee at all, but few teams do!

But I would say that the only team who can freely rotate is Leinster. Literally no other team is going to rest their best players in important matches.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

But I would say that the only team who can freely rotate is Leinster. Literally no other team is going to rest their best players in important matches.

Ulster’s issue is we as a club rely on our strongest team week in week out, especially the last few seasons we’ve had a lot of must win games. (Would love to see stats of wins without Coetzee)

There is no doubt in Leinster's resources etc. But it is there ability to sustainably integrate new/academy players into a team flawlessly without a drop off in form.

On the other hand Ulster seem to drop players in when our strongest players aren’t available or when we send 2nds to an inter pro. Hume is a good example, if Marshall was fit? Would he have had this exposure.

Now my issue isn’t the exposur! it’s the lack of exposure until our hand is forced. Dan in fairness has done very well bringing the likes of Baloucone, O’Toole (both starters now!). We now have a squad with some depth and with Dan’s stamp.

This season must be about sustainability and growing experience. More players integrating leads to more competition, better environment and less floggings.

awec

When we’re playing young lads to give them experience it needs to happen with better players around them.

The games when we send glorified A teams are worthless.

bilston

awec wrote: »

When we’re playing young lads to give them experience it needs to happen with better players around them.

The games when we send glorified A teams are worthless.

Agree with this...when David McCann makes his debut, stick him in a back row with Jordi Murphy and Marcel Coetzee, not Greg Jones and Nick Timoney (no disrespect to those two)

Paul Smeenus

100%

What use it is to feel like your debut is a knockabout? Start in a game against half-decent opposition (Treviso / Scarlets / Edinburgh), being told you have to deliver.

I know the interpros against Leinster where we have Allison, McIlroy and Moore are exciting and unpredictable, but does it position them right to kick on?

Paul Smeenus

According to the draft fixtures we are up against Treviso at home and then Ospreys away.

Would like to see a young forward or two involved.

awec

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

100%

What use it is to feel like your debut is a knockabout? Start in a game against half-decent opposition (Treviso / Scarlets / Edinburgh), being told you have to deliver.

I know the interpros against Leinster where we have Allison, McIlroy and Moore are exciting and unpredictable, but does it position them right to kick on?

No.

It just teaches them how to take a beating.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

According to the draft fixtures we are up against Treviso at home and then Ospreys away.

Would like to see a young forward or two involved.

Definitely get McCann/Alison on for 20 minutes and start building that exposure up, but with a dominant back row. Blindside for the taking.

Thinking forward:
- Are there any A games planned before Treviso?
- Ireland Games 24 Oct onwards, who are we likely to lose and who would replace them? (Henderson/O’Toole)
- Lowry to get more time at 10?
- Where is Milasonvich?
- O’Connor Jnr offer more than Rea at blindside?

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

Definitely get McCann/Alison on for 20 minutes and start building that exposure up, but with a dominant back row. Blindside for the taking.

Thinking forward:
- Are there any A games planned before Treviso?
- Ireland Games 24 Oct onwards, who are we likely to lose and who would replace them? (Henderson/O’Toole)
- Lowry to get more time at 10?
- Where is Milasonvich?
- O’Connor Jnr offer more than Rea at blindside?

Not sure about A games, there was a schedule posted somewhere on the rugby MB but then I think Ulster and Leinster were meant to play yesterday, but it was postponed.

I'd go as strong as possible in the first match, but with two exceptions. I'd throw someone like McCann or Allison in from the start, and I'd probably start Lowry at 10.

But surround both players with first teamers. I'd maybe get Stewart Moore in as well, especially if McCloskey is injured. I'd far rather him than Faddes.

launish116

bilston wrote: »

I'd go as strong as possible in the first match, but with two exceptions. I'd throw someone like McCann or Allison in from the start, and I'd probably start Lowry at 10.

But surround both players with first teamers. I'd maybe get Stewart Moore in as well, especially if McCloskey is injured. I'd far rather him than Faddes.

Completely agree! If Dan could bring McCann/Alison along this season as well as he has with O’Toole we’d be shaping up rightly.

Not sure we’d see Lowry at 10 if Mccloskey/burns are injured for first game. Could end up Lowry, Hume, Moore. As much I’d lick my lips at that attack, not a lot of experience.

Paul Smeenus

If McCloskey and Burns are both out, I'd consider Lowry-Madigan-Hume.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

If McCloskey and Burns are both out, I'd consider Lowry-Madigan-Hume.

Good idea.

Or stick Madigan even to 15 where can be a second playmaker as well.

I'll be really disappointed if we don't see Lowry at 10 again for a while.

IMO he might be the most talented 10 we have...we know the elephant in the room, but in fairness he doesn't the shirk his tackles. Is he any less effective than the Humphreys brothers were?

The problem is when he gets himself into rucks. He just gets blown away. Ulater can surely come up with a plan to avoid that or reduce the chances significantly.

Paul Smeenus

Our back-row support was very poor yesterday. We had a dreadful time at the breakdown.

Timoney's athletic but not particularly good on the deck, Murphy is way off the pace, Rea Sr is no whiz on the ground.

Lowry should have been better supported. I wouldn't put the "getting isolated" problem heavily on him.

awec

Timoney hasn't enough grunt for games at that level. He's a decent ProWhatever player.

Rea Sr still has a lot to prove.

launish116

awec wrote: »

Timoney hasn't enough grunt for games at that level. He's a decent ProWhatever player.

Rea Sr still has a lot to prove.

Sadly I think they’ve both peaked. Shame really wanted Rea to kick on.

Buer

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Lowry should have been better supported. I wouldn't put the "getting isolated" problem heavily on him.

It's a tricky situation. Obviously, he's very small and that doesn't help him stay on his feet or fight into the tackle to prevent the tackler getting a good poaching position. But he's also so bloody good on his feet that he not only evades the first up tackler but his own support can be a half yard further back than they'd normally be.

stellenbosch

awec wrote: »

Timoney hasn't enough grunt for games at that level. He's a decent ProWhatever player.

Rea Sr still has a lot to prove.

What about giving Greg Jones a good run? Otherwise why have him there at all?

Paul Smeenus

stellenbosch wrote: »

What about giving Greg Jones a good run? Otherwise why have him there at all?

Dunno that he'll be any better than Timoney or Rea, but maybe he deserves the shot.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Dunno that he'll be any better than Timoney or Rea, but maybe he deserves the shot.

David O’Connor has looked hungry when he has come off the bench! If he has the same work ethos as his brother I’d give him a go first.

bilston

stellenbosch wrote: »

What about giving Greg Jones a good run? Otherwise why have him there at all?

Greg Jones usually does quite well when gets a chance, but for whether reasons those chances seem few and far between.

Paul Smeenus

Looks like Dan McFarland is on the same page:

“We’ll take a couple of down days now as we’ve got a lot of battered bodies in very high-profile games. Guys have put a lot of effort into that and we’ll come back in and do a bit of training, review as support staff, review as players, and take the learnings we can from this period and move on.

“I anticipate the next period of games will be an opportunity for us to try and broaden our squad. Starting with these last five games, we’ve mainly focused on the key men in the team and now is an opportunity to look at the guys coming through to see if they can stake a claim. The nature of the competition allows us to do that.”

https://www.ulsterrugby.com/2020/09/mcfarland-well-take-the-learnings-from-this-period/


Also, Johnny Petrie saying, yes, we need to check down the settee for any pound coins.

Amid subsequent decline in ticket sales for matches at the Kingspan Stadium - including a drop in season ticket sales - Ulster's revenue suffered in the immediate aftermath of the 2017/18 controversy.

"As Philip pointed out, there were a number of legacy issues that made things financially challenging for us a couple of years ago," Ulster chief executive Petrie told BBC Radio Ulster's Sportsound Extra Time.
...

With no real indication when large number of fans will be permitted to return to rugby venues, Petrie said Ulster's task now is to "cut our cloth accordingly to nurse us through this period until such time as we can really drive that growth again".

Petrie revealed that Ulster, along with other sporting bodies as Ulster GAA and the Irish FA, have been in discussion with the Department of Communities about running possible pilot events which could see larger numbers of supporters that the current 400 limit attending matches.

"We would hopefully have something in place over the next couple of weeks, perhaps even for the start of the Pro14 tournament.

"We're working very closely with the Department for Communities on that and hopefully we'll get there.

"But the health picture creates challenges for us all. We understand that and that has to come first."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54240065

launish116

Supposely Ravens playing Leinster on Friday, yet to be confirmed. Though twitter saying it’s going ahead and it’s Dan Leavy return.

Paul Smeenus

launish116 wrote: »

Supposely Ravens playing Leinster on Friday, yet to be confirmed. Though twitter saying it’s going ahead and it’s Dan Leavy return.

I thought it had been cancelled because of the outbreak in the Ulster Academy? Although that was a few weeks ago now.