Ulster Team Talk Thread IV... Go On My Henderson...

Buer

Was DOC (is this DOC3 now?) rumoured? It seems a bit of a surprise addition. He's not a bad player but never was one that jumped out. I wouldn't have considered him as good as his brother, for example. He must be about 24 now?

Paul Smeenus

Buer wrote: »

Was DOC (is this DOC3 now?) rumoured? It seems a bit of a surprise addition. He's not a bad player but never was one that jumped out. I wouldn't have considered him as good as his brother, for example. He must be about 24 now?

There was rumour of him joining during the season. Maybe just a cheap roll of the dice to give him a crack.

dregin

Anyone know what the story is with Joey Dunleavy? Not much info on either the Ulster or Malone sites on his current situation.

The Lost Sheep

dregin wrote: »

Anyone know what the story is with Joey Dunleavy? Not much info on either the Ulster or Malone sites on his current situation.

Still academy for next season. Was named as one of the 4 third year academy members when new intake was announced last week

bilston

Players by position
PROP
Jack McGrath
Marty Moore
Eric O'Sullivan
Ross Kane
Tom O'Toole
Andrew Warwick
Gareth Milasinovic
Kyle McCall
Tommy O'Hagan

HOOKER
Rob Herring
John Andrew
Adam McBurney
Zack McCall

SECOND ROW
Iain Henderson
Sam Carter
Kieran Treadwell
Alan O'Connor
David O'Connor

BACK ROW
Marcell Coetzee
Jordi Murphy
Sean Reidy
Nick Timoney
Clive Ross
Matty Rea
Marcus Rea
Greg Jones

SCRUM HALF
John Cooney
Dave Shanahan
Jonny Stewart

OUT HALF
Billy Burns
Bill Johnston

CENTRE
Stuart McCloskey
Will Addison*
Luke Marshall
James Hume
Angus Curtis*

WING
Jacob Stockdale
Craig Gilroy
Rob Lyttle
Robert Balacoune
Angus Kernohan

FULL BACK
Matt Faddes*
Louis Ludik
Michael Lowry*
* Can play other positions

ACADEMY
Callum Reid
Tom Stewart
Matt Dalton
Jack Regan
Aaron Hall
Joe Dunleavy
Matthew Agnew
Azur Allison
David McCann
Graham Curtis
Bruce Houston
Stewart Moore
Hayden Hyde
Iwan Hughes
Aaron Sexton
Conor Rankin

As Paul says it's a very young squad, but it is talented. You have the guts of a squad that could be together for another 4-5 years. Considering they've just made a league semi final and a European quarter final that's a great place to be in. On paper it's a much stronger group than last year.

A few points

1) Replacing Best and Cave...not necessarily replacing the players, but replacing the influence they would have had this season, particularly with Henderson and now possibly Coetzee likely to miss a large part of the season. New leaders will need to emerge.

2) We've two thirds of a quality back row that can compete with anyone, but while the likes.of Reidy and Timoney are decent players and certainly good at Pro 14 level, come the latter stages of Europe it would be nice to have a destructive ball carrier at 6.

3) Bringing in Bill Johnston could prove a masterstroke. It could turn out to be the best signing of the lot in the long term. To me he has looked one of the most competent Irish U20 out halfs I've seen, but his career has stalled because of injuries. Watch this space.

4) I doubt we will get the same return this year from the Academy, we don't need to anyway, but Stewart Moore looks the business. If he stays fit he will be right in the mix sooner rather than later. He looks like someone who could reach the very top. Hopefully a back row emerges, although I'm not sure we have someone who fits the description at point 2!

Paul Smeenus

Was pleasantly surprised by the debut of Marcus Rea. Supposed to be the more talented brother.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Was pleasantly surprised by the debut of Marcus Rea. Supposed to be the more talented brother.

Agree, he was really impressive against Leinster. If Murphy and Coetzee are at the WC he should get plenty of chances. Based on what I saw against Leinster he might be the missing link. Really good players tend to stand out right from the beginning, and he did that, but it was effectively an A game and I just wonder why it has taken him a little longer than expected to get a chance. That's me looking for a negative that may not exist! Hands Like Flipper and Loch Lamora seem to know more about the younger lads so maybe they can comment?

launish116

Didnt he have a few injuries? Same during u20s?

Hopefully he gets a good preseason under his belt and can make an impact!

Some good old brother rivalary wont do any harm.

DonVito

I think he's suffered quite a bit from 6.5 syndrome. He was a real stand out for Blackrock in the SCT but he was more of a back-row ball carrier.

Kept being brought through the underage system as a lock, but he was never going to succeed there at 6'4 and with his physique. He's not rangy and athletic like Itoje. He's more of a Rhys Ruddock type player. If Ulster stick with him at 6 he can certainly reach Pro14 standard.

bilston

DonVito wrote: »

I think he's suffered quite a bit from 6.5 syndrome. He was a real stand out for Blackrock in the SCT but he was more of a back-row ball carrier.

Kept being brought through the underage system as a lock, but he was never going to succeed there at 6'4 and with his physique. He's not rangy and athletic like Itoje. He's more of a Rhys Ruddock type player. If Ulster stick with him at 6 he can certainly reach Pro14 standard.

I think you're talking about Nick Timoney.

I don't think the Blackrock lads would have understood anything Marcus Rea ever said if he had gone there

DonVito

bilston wrote: »

I think you're talking about Nick Timoney.

I don't think the Blackrock lads would have understood anything Marcus Rea ever said if he had gone there

Sorry I was talking about David O'Connor.

Glanced at sibling rivalry and assumed.

Locke_Lamora

bilston wrote: »

Agree, he was really impressive against Leinster. If Murphy and Coetzee are at the WC he should get plenty of chances. Based on what I saw against Leinster he might be the missing link. Really good players tend to stand out right from the beginning, and he did that, but it was effectively an A game and I just wonder why it has taken him a little longer than expected to get a chance. That's me looking for a negative that may not exist! Hands Like Flipper and Loch Lamora seem to know more about the younger lads so maybe they can comment?

Compared to other academy backrow prospects I would've rated him behind McCann, Allison and Hall but well ahead of Dunleavy and Agnew. He played well enough in the games I saw him, but he never really stood out. As for why it's taken him a while to break through, I'm fairly certain he's had quite a few injuries, and I'd also wager a guess that it might've taken a little time to get his strength and weight up, as he's not the biggest guy around. Pure speculation though.

Tbh I was pretty surprised at how well he played against leinster. Even if it was a weakened side, they have great depth and a lot of guys who have proven themselves in the pro14 before.

His second professional game is just another thing to get excited about I suppose, right after Baloucoune taking his rightful place in Keith Earls' Irish jersey.

Hands Like Flippers

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Compared to other academy backrow prospects I would've rated him behind McCann, Allison and Hall but well ahead of Dunleavy and Agnew. He played well enough in the games I saw him, but he never really stood out. As for why it's taken him a while to break through, I'm fairly certain he's had quite a few injuries, and I'd also wager a guess that it might've taken a little time to get his strength and weight up, as he's not the biggest guy around. Pure speculation though.

Tbh I was pretty surprised at how well he played against leinster. Even if it was a weakened side, they have great depth and a lot of guys who have proven themselves in the pro14 before.

His second professional game is just another thing to get excited about I suppose, right after Baloucoune taking his rightful place in Keith Earls' Irish jersey.

Aye it was injuries that held him back same as Moore.

launish116

So much potential slowly building in backrow, still think it'll be another season or 2 for it to really show.

But blindside is there for the taking along with backup 8. Mathew Rea needs to lock it down or he's going to be overtook.

If David brings the same dog his brother has ill be happy enough.

hype101

Why bring in DOC3 and offload Nagle?

Squidgy Black

hype101 wrote: »

Why bring in DOC3 and offload Nagle?

Nagle had an offer from Zebre. Also he's 30 and is pretty much a journeyman at this stage, granted he came into a good spell in his loan period but someone like David O'Connor is 24, being brought in on a development contract (so pennies pretty much), and performed well in the AIL with Lansdowne so he's not a completely unknown quantity. Was just a victim of Leinster's overflow in 2nd row prospects, last year when he was released James Ryan had just signed a senior contract, Dowling was in the 1st year intake and Baird was pencilled in for a spot the following year.

hype101

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Nagle had an offer from Zebre. Also he's 30 and is pretty much a journeyman at this stage, granted he came into a good spell in his loan period but someone like David O'Connor is 24, being brought in on a development contract (so pennies pretty much), and performed well in the AIL with Lansdowne so he's not a completely unknown quantity. Was just a victim of Leinster's overflow in 2nd row prospects, last year when he was released James Ryan had just signed a senior contract, Dowling was in the 1st year intake and Baird was pencilled in for a spot the following year.

Ya fair enough.. Would have thought his age profile would have complemented the squad's young make-up though.. Just thought he was playing particularly well towards the end of the season and was full value for a bench spot.. Glut of quality young second rows at Leinster at the mo alright.. Jack Dunne another.. Anyway, hopefully DOC3 will go the way of his brother.

launish116

Agreed Nagle would of been great to keep! Though he looked very good when he played for us! Guessing he wanta more game time and would of been 3/4 choice here after Carter arrived.

Is O'Connor more a blindside than a 2nd row? Doesnt look all that big for the row?

Buer

launish116 wrote: »

Agreed Nagle would of been great to keep! Though he looked very good when he played for us! Guessing he wanta more game time and would of been 3/4 choice here after Carter arrived.

Is O'Connor more a blindside than a 2nd row? Doesnt look all that big for the row?

Think he played mostly at lock this season in the AIL but he was mostly a flanker for St. Mary's before that. Was a lock at underage. When he was in the Leinster academy, I think he was being touted more for a blindside than a lock.

He'll probably be slightly undersized for a lock at pro level.

bilston

I think I read that Nagle had signed for Zebre before he came to Ulster.

But agree I'd have liked him to stay for another year.

Is Carter anywhere near the Australian set up? I know he has been capped previously.

Dog Botherer

bilston wrote: »

Is Carter anywhere near the Australian set up? I know he has been capped previously.

Hasn’t played for them since ‘17, think a lack of form for him dropped. He’d be on the outskirts i reckon, wouldn’t take much for him to be benching or starting given Australia’s lack of depth at lock. He’s been very good for the Brumbies this season though, they weren’t too happy to be losing him.

https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6234405/is-sam-carter-australian-rugbys-forgotten-man/

bilston

Looks like Ruan might get a run out at Kingspan next season...for the Cheetahs...

Paul Smeenus

Addison back in training at pre-season.

Has to be said, if we can get some parity up front, a RWC-period backline featuring Addison, McCloskey, Marshall, Gilroy and Baloucoune should be able to put some points on the board. To say nothing of Lowry and Lyttle.

launish116

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Addison back in training at pre-season.

Has to be said, if we can get some parity up front, a RWC-period backline featuring Addison, McCloskey, Marshall, Gilroy and Baloucoune should be able to put some points on the board. To say nothing of Lowry and Lyttle.

Forgetting Matt Faddes also

bilston

When do Faddes and Carter get here?

Faddes presumably has Mitre Cup (NPC in old money whatever they called it these days) duties?

I assume that provided Carter doesn't get a call for Australia he should be here for the start of the season?

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Addison back in training at pre-season.

Has to be said, if we can get some parity up front, a RWC-period backline featuring Addison, McCloskey, Marshall, Gilroy and Baloucoune should be able to put some points on the board. To say nothing of Lowry and Lyttle.

We can definitely get an exciting backline out, we're only really missing Stockdale.

Out half is interesting, as I've said before I'm not as down on Burns as some, I thought he was perfectly decent last season, but I think we have got ourselves a bit of a gem in Bill Johnston. He needs to two things. One, bide his time, I'm sure Burns will (rightfully) start the season as first choice and two stay fit, I watched this guy play for the U20s in the team that reached the JWC final 3 years ago, and he looked the most complete Irish U20 out half I've seen in 10-15 years of watching the U20s/U21s. That includes both Jonny Sexton and Paddy Jackson.

Lucas44

bilston wrote: »

We can definitely get an exciting backline out, we're only really missing Stockdale.

Out half is interesting, as I've said before I'm not as down on Burns as some, I thought he was perfectly decent last season, but I think we have got ourselves a bit of a gem in Bill Johnston. He needs to two things. One, bide his time, I'm sure Burns will (rightfully) start the season as first choice and two stay fit, I watched this guy play for the U20s in the team that reached the JWC final 3 years ago, and he looked the most complete Irish U20 out half I've seen in 10-15 years of watching the U20s/U21s. That includes both Jonny Sexton and Paddy Jackson.

Burns is very average, stands deep and passes, not the player he was at Gloucester and Underage, the fact cooney was kicking ahead of him has to say something aswell, expect Johnston to fully take over next season

bilston

Reading a thread on PR on the possible Australian WC squad and it seems Carter is part of the conversation amongst the media. It will be interesting to see if he gets a shot in the Rugby championship.

Not ideal for us if he does, but again similar to Coetzee who are we to stand in their way. It would also be good for the brand I suppose.

thomond2006

No sign of Carter in Australia's RC squad.

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

No sign of Carter in Australia's RC squad.

not even sure he'd be 1st reserve either at this stage...
theyve 4 locks in there at the moment with arnold, rodda, loto (Tui) and simmons

cheika likes utility with his reserve players and he has Luke Jones and Jack Dempsey who could play both lock / flanker.... and ned hanigan, who isnt named, would also come into that bracket.

Squidgy Black

Billy Burns just posted on Instagram, his girlfriend had a still birth. Awful news.

molloyjh

Jesus that's horrendous.

jacothelad

Addison. Moore and Gilroy all back in training. Good news for the season ahead. I imagine Addison's issue will mean a slower return and a great deal of work to strengthen his back before he is really fully fit. Moore will possibly be on the back up ist for the RWC.


I wonder where Gilroy will lie in the pecking order when he is fit again. Stockdale and Baloucoune look to be a seriously high grade pair.



Sexton is an interesting prospect. Pace like that is a rare thing in irish Rugby.

launish116

jacothelad wrote: »

I wonder where Gilroy will lie in the pecking order when he is fit again. Stockdale and Baloucoune look to be a seriously high grade pair.

Forgetting Lyttle as well.

Really don't think Gilroy will have it easy this season and McFarland doesnt seem the guy to use credit when picking a team. Baloucoune/Lyttle are only going to get better.

Throw in potentially Faddes, Addison & Ludik plying for fullback. Going to be a seriously competitive locking down wing/fullback, bar Stockdale.

jacothelad

launish116 wrote: »

Forgetting Lyttle as well.

Really don't think Gilroy will have it easy this season and McFarland doesnt seem the guy to use credit when picking a team. Baloucoune/Lyttle are only going to get better.

Throw in potentially Faddes, Addison & Ludik plying for fullback. Going to be a seriously competitive locking down wing/fullback, bar Stockdale.

Yes I completely forgot about Lyttle. He is such a talented and deceptively strong player. He has great speed and athelticism. A good defender, a great attacker, a really good kicker and a lovely passer of the ball. I keep looking at him when he is playing and think ...'He should be a 9.'...and who knows, maybe a 10.




So,

Ludik,

Addison,

Stockdale,

Baloucoune,

Lyttle,

McCloskey,

Gilroy,

Cooney,

Curtis (A),

Faddes,

Hume,

Johnstone,

Kernohan,

Lowry,

,

Shanahan,

Stewart

Marshall
in the seniors and



Moore, Sexton, Hughes, Houston and Hyde in the Academy backs.




That looks impressive but the weak links are as usual at 9 and 10. Burns is o.k. but I am still to be convinced about Lowry. Not about his talent but about his chances of survival. He certainly isn't really a full back at this level.


Bill Johnstone was a strange move but if he is as good as the reports then maybe he will be the catalyst that gets the backs moving.



Shanners is like Beagle lite and Stewart is....sort of o.k.


It's funny but I almost forgot about Luke Marshall who was really good at the end of last season. It is easy to lose sight of his talents which were blunted by his shoe-horning into 12 by McLaughlin. Here's hoping that he and Ulster get a season free of the injury blight which has hindered the team for about 7 years.

Jump_In_Jack

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes I completely forgot about Lyttle. He is such a talented and deceptively strong player. He has great speed and athelticism. A good defender, a great attacker, a really good kicker and a lovely passer of the ball. I keep looking at him when he is playing and think ...'He should be a 9.'...and who knows, maybe a 10.




So,

Ludik,

Addison,

Stockdale,

Baloucoune,

Lyttle,

McCloskey,

Gilroy,

Cooney,

Curtis (A),

Faddes,

Hume,

Johnstone,

Kernohan,

Lowry,

,

Shanahan,

Stewart

Marshall
in the seniors and



Moore, Sexton, Hughes, Houston and Hyde in the Academy backs.




That looks impressive but the weak links are as usual at 9 and 10. Burns is o.k. but I am still to be convinced about Lowry. Not about his talent but about his chances of survival. He certainly isn't really a full back at this level.


Bill Johnstone was a strange move but if he is as good as the reports then maybe he will be the catalyst that gets the backs moving.



Shanners is like Beagle lite and Stewart is....sort of o.k.


It's funny but I almost forgot about Luke Marshall who was really good at the end of last season. It is easy to lose sight of his talents which were blunted by his shoe-horning into 12 by McLaughlin. Here's hoping that he and Ulster get a season free of the injury blight which has hindered the team for about 7 years.

Strength in depth there for sure, but what would be the starting backline?
Is there enough quality in the starting backline to impose themselves on the likes of Munster/Leinster/Glasgow?

For example, at a guess:
15. Faddes
14. Gilroy
13. Addison
12. McCloskey
11. Stockdale
10. Burns
9. Cooney

How would you rate that back-line against the likes of Munster/Leinster/Glasgow if it came to a knockout match?

RobbieRuns

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Strength in depth there for sure, but what would be the starting backline?
Is there enough quality in the starting backline to impose themselves on the likes of Munster/Leinster/Glasgow?

For example, at a guess:
15. Faddes
14. Gilroy
13. Addison
12. McCloskey
11. Stockdale
10. Burns
9. Cooney

How would you rate that back-line against the likes of Munster/Leinster/Glasgow if it came to a knockout match?

Good question..........

For me best backlines in the Country in order

1 Leinster
2 Connacht
3 Munster
4 Ulster

Close which ones to go 2nd and 3rd choice. Burns would be the main reason that I would put Ulster there and they have improved hugely last season.

Sinbad_NI

jacothelad wrote: »

....
Here's hoping that he and Ulster get a season free of the injury blight which has hindered the team for about 7 years.

Don't think we've had it any worse than any other team TBH. It's just we've such a steep drop off in talent after the top 15/23 that we feel it so much more than other teams. Leinster being the prime example of strength in depth.
And obviously that problem was far worse in the pack than the backs.... and that's where the vast majority of matches are won or lost.
Even now (and I think we've recruited very well) when a few key men go down we'll be in a similar boat.
Cannot expect to go injury free in any season. That's exactly what needs to be planned for.

bilston

I think Gilroy still starts when everyone is available. The unknown quantity is Matt Faddes. He seems to be versatile, but what is his preferred position?

Stockdale won't be about for the first two months anyway so if I had to guess I'd say Gilroy and Balacoune on the wings with Faddes or Addison at FB and Lyttle slotting in from time to time.

As Jaco says a lot also depends on how quickly Addison returns. When both Addison and Marshall are fit, does Addison go to FB? Right now I think both Marshall and Addison have to play in the big games if fit.

As for the Johnston signing being strange...it's only strange in that Munster let it happen, or didn't do enough to stop it from happening, but they have other options and a budget that will only go so far. From what I've seen of Johnston it's potentially a great move for us.

bilston

Who are the must picks in our backline?

Cooney is obviously nailed on at 9

I'd say McCloskey, Stockdale and Addison are players who.will always start the European games, is Luke Marshall in that group? Possibly. That only leaves out half and one wing spot.

Squidgy Black

bilston wrote: »

I think Gilroy still starts when everyone is available. The unknown quantity is Matt Faddes. He seems to be versatile, but what is his preferred position?

Stockdale won't be about for the first two months anyway so if I had to guess I'd say Gilroy and Balacoune on the wings with Faddes or Addison at FB and Lyttle slotting in from time to time.

As Jaco says a lot also depends on how quickly Addison returns. When both Addison and Marshall are fit, does Addison go to FB? Right now I think both Marshall and Addison have to play in the big games if fit.

As for the Johnston signing being strange...it's only strange in that Munster let it happen, or didn't do enough to stop it from happening, but they have other options and a budget that will only go so far. From what I've seen of Johnston it's potentially a great move for us.

He's played a good bit at FB when Ben Smith isn't available, but I think his preferred position is right wing.

Paul Smeenus

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He's played a good bit at FB when Ben Smith isn't available, but I think his preferred position is right wing.

Then i'd probably go

Cooney - Burns (at first, anyway)
Stockdale - McCloskey - Marshall - Faddes
Addison

Dubinusa

I reckon Gilroy will see a lot of action. He's just an incredible finisher.
Burns , will probably be better also. His maiden year is behind him. He's a good 10.
McCloskey is imo, undroppable. He's a flanker coming down that channel at speed. Good hands too.
I would love to see Addison at 15. He could be the next international 15.
I know nothing about Faddes.

bilston

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He's played a good bit at FB when Ben Smith isn't available, but I think his preferred position is right wing.

Ah, interesting, in that case he may well put Gilroy under pressure

sydthebeat

Dubinusa wrote: »

I know nothing about Faddes.

faddes is very much a utility back..... adept at all numbers from 13 to 15 where the highlanders have used him over the years....... Though his usual spot would be wing (either) hes actually a very capable 13 and 15.

Squidgy Black

Yeah he's played centre a good bit with Otago.

He's a great option to have at 23, although some would argue it could probably be a downfall to not get a decent run in one position.

It's actually worked out really well for Ulster, with Addison and Faddes you have two great players who can pretty much cover the entire backline in case of emergencies, will allow for a lot of different options if injuries pop up.

RobbieRuns

I would look to play Stockdale at 15 a lot more this season. Great under a high ball and can run good lines.

Paul Smeenus

Plenty more opportunity (hopefully) to rest Big Stu this season then. Maybe too early for Moore, but I liked the cut of Curtis' jib.

Locke_Lamora

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Plenty more opportunity (hopefully) to rest Big Stu this season then. Maybe too early for Moore, but I liked the cut of Curtis' jib.

I'd like to see Hume get more minutes in the 12 shirt as well. I know he played most of his schools and u20 career further out, but he played really well when called upon at inside centre. He had surgery on his foot/ankle over the summer so I'm not sure what stage of recovery he's at.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Plenty more opportunity (hopefully) to rest Big Stu this season then. Maybe too early for Moore, but I liked the cut of Curtis' jib.

I think Moore will rise to the top pretty quickly...if he stays fit