The future of the Bray-Greystones line

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

they should be planning that already (at Donabate) - it's a no-brainer IMO

Might I suggest something a little more radical. Connect it at Rush & Lusk Station rather then Donabate.

It would be 8km of extra track, rather then 4km to Donabate, but so much potential.

Basically run the Metro through the empty fields North of Swords and West of the M1, until you are roughly parallel with Lusk and then swing across the M1 to Lusk, Rush and Lusk station and onto Lusk.

A station at 1km along the length of that track, turn each into a SDZ, a new town at each station. You could easily house 100,000k extra people in this area if planned right. Hell it could be where we house the next 500k people.

This is really the main reason they are building Metrolink, to eventually open up this land to development.

Also a stop in Rush and Lusk and at the train station, linking those two towns to the actual train station.

Also you take advantage of the station location out in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of space to build that station into an interchange with multiple platforms, passing platforms, etc. where intercity trains could stop, etc.

Rush and Lusk are only 25km from Dublin, that whole area is very close to the city, well within easy commuting distance (by comparison, Greystones is 27km).

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

Might I suggest something a little more radical. Connect it at Rush & Lusk Station rather then Donabate.

It would be 8km of extra track, rather then 4km to Donabate, but so much potential.

Basically run the Metro through the empty fields North of Swords and West of the M1, until you are roughly parallel with Lusk and then swing across the M1 to Lusk, Rush and Lusk station and onto Lusk.

A station at 1km along the length of that track, turn each into a SDZ, a new town at each station. You could easily house 100,000k extra people in this area if planned right. Hell it could be where we house the next 500k people.

This is really the main reason they are building Metrolink, to eventually open up this land to development.

Also a stop in Rush and Lusk and at the train station, linking those two towns to the actual train station.

Also you take advantage of the station location out in the middle of nowhere. Plenty of space to build that station into an interchange with multiple platforms, passing platforms, etc. where intercity trains could stop, etc.

Rush and Lusk are only 25km from Dublin, that whole area is very close to the city, well within easy commuting distance (by comparison, Greystones is 27km).

Is it really necessary to have green-field development that far out, there's no shortage of land much closer to the city (Greystones is an existing town).

For every commuter who uses the Metro, there'll be another 2 who drive, better to develop within and around the the M50 IMO (also Swords could be greatly expanded).

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

Is it really necessary to have green-field development that far out, there's no shortage of land much closer to the city (Greystones is an existing town).

For every commuter who uses the Metro, there'll be another 2 who drive, better to develop within and around the the M50 IMO (also Swords could be greatly expanded).

In the near future yes. They are predicting the population will grow in the Dublin region by 150,000 in just the next three years! Over the next 20 years it will easily me another 500,000, probably more.

Really it isn't that far out, that area is roughly the same distance out as where the proposed Luas extension to Bray is proposed to go. And much closer then places like Maynooth and Naas (roughly half the distance) that many people are already commuting from.

Also the fact that there are no towns there is the advantage. It allows new, modern, high density commuter towns to be built there, close to the Metro stops, rather then old fashioned spread out, low density towns. Correct the mistakes of the past.

It will be much easier to expand North, then to expand the Luas to Bray, given the issues with Metro south, etc. The Northern end of Metrolink will have plenty of capacity.

Plus the issue with extending south is that it is constrained to a narrow corridor by the Dublin and Wicklow mountains, there is no such constraints going north.

Just look on Google Maps, turn it to earth view and zoom out a bit. You can easily see when Dublin is already pretty dense (south) and where there is lots of green fields close to the city to the north. Looking at Google maps, it is blindingly obvious where most future development is going to be.

I agree with you that Swords will be expanded, it will grow north along the extended Metro line, that is basically what I'm saying.

As for cars on the M50, that is why we need to plan for this upfront now. Why these new towns I'm suggesting need to be built in a highly planned manner, as SDZ's, built around the Metro stations, within walking distance of the Metro, in tall apartment buildings.

Separately we will likely need to also put in place congestion charging, to help reduce traffic.

BTW I'm not suggesting building these new towns straight off. Instead extend the Metro to Rush & Lusk now and build the interchange now, when the land is available and clear. Only open the stations closest to Swords for now, but plan for stations further up the line as the future demand increases.

It is about putting in place a solid long term plan for the growth of Dublin, rather then the chaotic, unplanned growth we have had until now.

loyatemu

the Jacobs Engineering report on increasing capacity is now available, courtesy of local councillor Derek Mitchell:

Doesn't really tell us anything new - it is feasible to double track from Greystones station to the start of the tunnels, and also from Bray station to the bridge over Putland Road, this would allow a 20 minute frequency.

However, this is also dependent on speed limits being increased on the single track section, which they seem to think is not a problem but there are mixed responses from Irish Rail. It also requires additional rolling stock which as discussed elsewhere, we won't see until 2023.

There's no mention in the report of adding any new tunnel(s).

bk

Well that is good news, looks like they could hit a 20 minute frequency, for a reasonable capital expense (comparatively for rail).

The massive expense (probably greater then a billion) of a new tunnel would never be justified for the relatively small numbers boarding at Greystones and beyond.

prunudo

bk wrote: »

Well that is good news, looks like they could hit a 20 minute frequency, for a reasonable capital expense (comparatively for rail).

The massive expense (probably greater then a billion) of a new tunnel would never be justified for the relatively small numbers boarding at Greystones and beyond.

Thing is, with the expansion of the towns and villages south of Greystones and along the n11 corridor these new residents will continue to add to the grid lock on the roads.
The park and ride in Greystones is full most mornings before 8.30 so there obviously is demand for a better train service.
I think if they get to 20 min service it will be a case of 'build it and they will come'.

bk

jvan wrote: »

Thing is, with the expansion of the towns and villages south of Greystones and along the n11 corridor these new residents will continue to add to the grid lock on the roads.

I knew someone was going to come along and say this.

Greystones, at an hour from Dublin, is already at the edge of where you want to be encouraging regular commuting from. Towns beyond that you would be talking 1 and a half hours and that is definitely outside international best practice for commuting.

We have plenty of space closer to the city and much easier to develop first. Northern Dublin along the Northern line and Metrolink. The massive areas to the West of Dublin along the two rail lines there. There is even plenty of infill, much closer to the city, for instance along a future Luas extension to Bray.

Do we really want to be encouraging people to be commuting 3 hours a day and sprawling Dublin low density over the entire Eastern seaboard!!

Densification of everything that is within an hour of Dublin is what we want to be encouraging.

I'm not saying it will never happen, 50, 100 years from now if our population continues to grow, we maybe left with no option. But for now we have lots of better options for growth that would take precedence.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

Well that is good news, looks like they could hit a 20 minute frequency, for a reasonable capital expense (comparatively for rail).

The massive expense (probably greater then a billion) of a new tunnel would never be justified for the relatively small numbers boarding at Greystones and beyond.

I don't expect a new tunnel to be considered until at least the 2030s but at some point will need to be assessed. I've no idea of the cost, I looked at a few references but it's a "how long is a piece of string" question. A 3km single track tunnel with no stations is not complex to build and would be a lot cheaper than a metro tunnel, but you'd be going straight through rock. It probably wouldn't be much more expensive to build a single-bore double-track tunnel and abandon the existing alignment (shame someone didn't give Brunel a bit more money back in the day).

Mitch Connor

bk wrote: »

I knew someone was going to come along and say this.

Greystones, at an hour from Dublin, is already at the edge of where you want to be encouraging regular commuting from. Towns beyond that you would be talking 1 and a half hours and that is definitely outside international best practice for commuting.

We have plenty of space closer to the city and much easier to develop first. Northern Dublin along the Northern line and Metrolink. The massive areas to the West of Dublin along the two rail lines there. There is even plenty of infill, much closer to the city, for instance along a future Luas extension to Bray.

Do we really want to be encouraging people to be commuting 3 hours a day and sprawling Dublin low density over the entire Eastern seaboard!!

Densification of everything that is within an hour of Dublin is what we want to be encouraging.

I'm not saying it will never happen, 50, 100 years from now if our population continues to grow, we maybe left with no option. But for now we have lots of better options for growth that would take precedence.

But Greystones is already expanding, as is Kilkoole, Ashford, Newtown etc.... you obviously have a point, but this is the reality of the situation.

Obrieski

bk wrote: »

In the near future yes. They are predicting the population will grow in the Dublin region by 150,000 in just the next three years! Over the next 20 years it will easily me another 500,000, probably more.

Really it isn't that far out, that area is roughly the same distance out as where the proposed Luas extension to Bray is proposed to go. And much closer then places like Maynooth and Naas (roughly half the distance) that many people are already commuting from.

Also the fact that there are no towns there is the advantage. It allows new, modern, high density commuter towns to be built there, close to the Metro stops, rather then old fashioned spread out, low density towns. Correct the mistakes of the past.

It will be much easier to expand North, then to expand the Luas to Bray, given the issues with Metro south, etc. The Northern end of Metrolink will have plenty of capacity.

Plus the issue with extending south is that it is constrained to a narrow corridor by the Dublin and Wicklow mountains, there is no such constraints going north.

Just look on Google Maps, turn it to earth view and zoom out a bit. You can easily see when Dublin is already pretty dense (south) and where there is lots of green fields close to the city to the north. Looking at Google maps, it is blindingly obvious where most future development is going to be.

I agree with you that Swords will be expanded, it will grow north along the extended Metro line, that is basically what I'm saying.

As for cars on the M50, that is why we need to plan for this upfront now. Why these new towns I'm suggesting need to be built in a highly planned manner, as SDZ's, built around the Metro stations, within walking distance of the Metro, in tall apartment buildings.

Separately we will likely need to also put in place congestion charging, to help reduce traffic.

BTW I'm not suggesting building these new towns straight off. Instead extend the Metro to Rush & Lusk now and build the interchange now, when the land is available and clear. Only open the stations closest to Swords for now, but plan for stations further up the line as the future demand increases.

It is about putting in place a solid long term plan for the growth of Dublin, rather then the chaotic, unplanned growth we have had until now.

Any chance you would run for election bk?

Actually, never mind, you would never get voted in...your ideas are too well thought out and make far too much sense to ever become reality!

prunudo

Its happening already, estate agents describing new developments in Ashford as 20 mins from m50 and 5 mins to Wicklow train station. There are very few big employment opportunities in Wicklow so majority of people are commuting to Dublin. Some cases 2 cars from same house commuting separately each day.
The dart may be an hour from Greystones but distance wise its not that far to commute.
I'm not saying your wrong with what you're saying but the current model of just building houses everywhere with no thought for where people will work or how they'll get there has to stop.

bk

jvan wrote: »

Its happening already, estate agents describing new developments in Ashford as 20 mins from m50 and 5 mins to Wicklow train station. There are very few big employment opportunities in Wicklow so majority of people are commuting to Dublin. Some cases 2 cars from same house commuting separately each day.
The dart may be an hour from Greystones but distance wise its not that far to commute.
I'm not saying your wrong with what you're saying but the current model of just building houses everywhere with no thought for where people will work or how they'll get there has to stop.

Very simple, they shouldn't be getting planning permission to build in these towns. This is just a continuation of our disasters planning.

marno21

bk wrote: »

Very simple, they shouldn't be getting planning permission to build in these towns. This is just a continuation of our disasters planning.

I agree with this, but Greystones has expanded massively in the last number of years, and the N11/M11 is already absolutely jammed. The damage is already done.

The North Wicklow area from Bray south is in serious trouble should there be any further issues with the Bray Head line. I shudder to think of what would happen should that line have to permanently close. There should really be a long term ambition to build a new tunnel further inland, if not to solve the capacity issues anyway. "We'll wait for the line to become unusable and then shut it permanently" is not really an option no matter how much weight its getting at the minute.

prunudo

bk wrote: »

Very simple, they shouldn't be getting planning permission to build in these towns. This is just a continuation of our disasters planning.

I know, its not sustainable. In a lot of cases this isn't newly rezoned land though. Its land that was rezoned back during the boom and has been lying idle since, sometimes with planning just waiting to go once the price per unit rose. Technically once they aren't contravening the area development plan there is no reason planning won't be granted. And in a 'housing crisis' the council won't want to be seen to be thwarting new homes.
I think in Newtown alone there about 1000 units which haven't been built yet that either with planning or in the process of being applied for.

bk

marno21 I'd argue, tough.

You don't get to buy a house knowing that there is feck all public transport available and no plans to improve it and then complain because you are sitting in bumper to bumper traffic.

Hard for those who have lived there all their lives. But I'd have little sympathy for those who have bought here over the last 20 years. They knew what they are getting into.

I'd see it as much the same as folks who buy a home near the airport and then complain about the noise.

I'm not saying that it won't ever happen. But it would go against international best practice to encourage commuting from so far out. The government have an easy way to do nothing here and I'd expect that they will just ignore that area.

The stations south of Greystones carry just 600 people a day. It would be laughable to suggest spending a billion or even hundreds of millions for so few users.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

The stations south of Greystones carry just 600 people a day. It would be laughable to suggest spending a billion or even hundreds of millions for so few users.

part of the reason usage is so low from those stations is the poor low-frequency service. The 133 bus is well used and the N11 is rammed.

But you also have a point, if they spent a lot of money on the line the quid-pro-quo would be more commuter development which is not desirable so far from the city (I've made the same point on the thread about the Youghal line - you open/improve the train service, more houses are built but only half of those new commuters use the train and the rest drive, so traffic actually gets worse).

gjim

bk wrote: »

Really it isn't that far out, that area is roughly the same distance out as where the proposed Luas extension to Bray is proposed to go. And much closer then places like Maynooth and Naas (roughly half the distance) that many people are already commuting from.

Also the fact that there are no towns there is the advantage. It allows new, modern, high density commuter towns to be built there, close to the Metro stops, rather then old fashioned spread out, low density towns. Correct the mistakes of the past.

This development model shouldn't need to be considered until development potential closer to the city centre is exhausted. There's easily room for an additional half a million people in Dublin if we developed all the brownfield sites and replaced some of the single storied cottages that lie within 5km of O'Connell bridge. We need to start building density in the core.

Investment in expensive PT infrastructure should reduce average commuting times. Building lines to distant fields and building homes there doesn't necessarily achieve this. It might be more comfortable sitting on a shiney new (expensive) metro for 40 minutes than it is to sit on a bus crawling through the streets for 40 minutes but at the end of the day, it's still a 40 minute commute.

marno21

Has a costing ever been done for an inland twin track single bore tunnel? Surely it wouldn't be that expensive in light of the fact that it's quite short and has no intermediate stations (even though it is through solid rock).

Would put this to bed for once and for all.

L1011

Still easily 8 to 9 figures I'd imagine - by we may have little choice but to do it for coastal erosion reasons

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

Has a costing ever been done for an inland twin track single bore tunnel? Surely it wouldn't be that expensive in light of the fact that it's quite short and has no intermediate stations (even though it is through solid rock).

Would put this to bed for once and for all.

my comment up the page discusses this - I looked at tunnelling costs online, most are for metro systems so not applicable. The 40km rail tunnel under the alps cost about €250m per km. It's apparently not much more expensive to bore a twin-track tunnel than a single-track.

Rulmeq

loyatemu wrote: »

my comment up the page discusses this - I looked at tunnelling costs online, most are for metro systems so not applicable. The 40km rail tunnel under the alps cost about €250m per km. It's apparently not much more expensive to bore a twin-track tunnel than a single-track.

Is it possible to just go to the west of the hills?

loyatemu

Rulmeq wrote: »

Is it possible to just go to the west of the hills?

not really, how do you get back into the towns at either end and reconnect with the existing line without demolishing swathes of buildings.

It would have been better if they'd gone with an inland route back in the C19 but you can blame Lord Meath for that.

prunudo

L1011 wrote: »

Still easily 8 to 9 figures I'd imagine - by we may have little choice but to do it for coastal erosion reasons

Due to the topography of Wicklow, whether it is road or rail the solutions will be expensive. They keep allowing the population to grow yet won't face the fact that the current infrastructure is creaking at the seams. Both the single track line through Bray head and the widening of the n11 through the Glen of the Downs will need big money thrown at them to offer realistic solutions.
And as you say the coastal erosion, especially just north of Wicklow is a major worry for the viability of the line in the long term.

bk

There is another major issue that people are forgetting. Building another tunnel won't fix this lines long distance problems.

If you build a tunnel, all it means is that these long distance commuter and intercity trains end up running into the back of slow DARTs running every 10 minutes. And probably running closer to every 5 minutes 10 years from now.

That will mean a miserably slow overall journey time for folks far out on this line.

By comparison the lines to the West of Dublin are more attractive for development, because they can be quad tracked relatively easily, so that the intercity and long distance commuter trains aren't held up by the DARTs closer into the city.

There is absolutely no way that the line to Bray can be quad tracked given the areas it goes through and how built up it already is. There just isn't any space for quad tracking.

So really what we are talking about to make this work, is not only a new tunnel between Bray and Greystones, but also a new underground tunnel all the way into the city center, kind of like Crossrail. Now you are talking Billions! That just isn't going to happen in our lifetimes and IMO people living out this way need to be realistic about this.

FunkyDa2

jvan wrote: »

Due to the topography of Wicklow, whether it is road or rail the solutions will be expensive. They keep allowing the population to grow yet won't face the fact that the current infrastructure is creaking at the seams. Both the single track line through Bray head and the widening of the n11 through the Glen of the Downs will need big money thrown at them to offer realistic solutions.
And as you say the coastal erosion, especially just north of Wicklow is a major worry for the viability of the line in the long term.

How about an elevated railway line, running directly above the N11, through the Glen of the Downs?...

marno21

bk wrote: »

There is another major issue that people are forgetting. Building another tunnel won't fix this lines long distance problems.

If you build a tunnel, all it means is that these long distance commuter and intercity trains end up running into the back of slow DARTs running every 10 minutes. And probably running closer to every 5 minutes 10 years from now.

That will mean a miserably slow overall journey time for folks far out on this line.

By comparison the lines to the West of Dublin are more attractive for development, because they can be quad tracked relatively easily, so that the intercity and long distance commuter trains aren't held up by the DARTs closer into the city.

There is absolutely no way that the line to Bray can be quad tracked given the areas it goes through and how built up it already is. There just isn't any space for quad tracking.

So really what we are talking about to make this work, is not only a new tunnel between Bray and Greystones, but also a new underground tunnel all the way into the city center, kind of like Crossrail. Now you are talking Billions! That just isn't going to happen in our lifetimes and IMO people living out this way need to be realistic about this.

IMO given the population of Greystones and Bray there should be a long term plan to redirect the rail line inland as I was alluding to above. Then run 10 minute DARTs from Greystones, and have Intercity trains changing at Greystones. No need for the intercity trains lagging behind DARTs north of Greystones, as you say passenger figures south of Greystones are miniscule anyway.

My rationale for the tunnel is entirely related to passengers from Greystones, given the development there, rather than intercity traffic.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

IMO given the population of Greystones and Bray there should be a long term plan to redirect the rail line inland as I was alluding to above. Then run 10 minute DARTs from Greystones, and have Intercity trains changing at Greystones. No need for the intercity trains lagging behind DARTs north of Greystones, as you say passenger figures south of Greystones are miniscule anyway.

My rationale for the tunnel is entirely related to passengers from Greystones, given the development there, rather than intercity traffic.

Terminating the Wexford trains at Bray platform 1* makes sense as there could be a Dart waiting to depart from platform 2 as soon as the passengers transfer. In the evening, the same could happen with the arriving Dart terminating at platform 2 with the Wexford train waiting on platform 1.

* I assume platform 1 is the western platform.

It would also release some trains for other use.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

Terminating the Wexford trains at Bray platform 1* makes sense as there could be a Dart waiting to depart from platform 2 as soon as the passengers transfer. In the evening, the same could happen with the arriving Dart terminating at platform 2 with the Wexford train waiting on platform 1.

* I assume platform 1 is the western platform.

It would also release some trains for other use.

with BiMode trains you might as well just run the Wexford service into town as a Dart

IMO given the population of Greystones and Bray there should be a long term plan to redirect the rail line inland as I was alluding to above.

that's not going to happen, there simply isn't a route, also it's still quite hilly and would require deep cuttings so I doubt it would be much cheaper when you account for the massive amount of CPOs needed.

Another tunnel is more likely but probably in 20+ years time. The Luas is due to be extended to Bray eventually , though then you have the issue of capacity on the Green Line to deal with.

A cheaper option to increase capacity to Greystones would be to build a depot there and stable trains overnight to operate during the morning rush (and back again in the evening). 20 minute service is probably adequate for off-peak.

prunudo

loyatemu wrote: »

with BiMode trains you might as well just run the Wexford service into town as a Dart



that's not going to happen, there simply isn't a route, also it's still quite hilly and would require deep cuttings so I doubt it would be much cheaper when you account for the massive amount of CPOs needed.

Another tunnel is more likely but probably in 20+ years time. The Luas is due to be extended to Bray eventually , though then you have the issue of capacity on the Green Line to deal with.

A cheaper option to increase capacity to Greystones would be to build a depot there and stable trains overnight to operate during the morning rush (and back again in the evening). 20 minute service is probably adequate for off-peak.

I think a lot of people might not be aware of the lack of route options. The n11 through the Glen of the downs is the only north/south low level or easy gradient route.

Is the plan for the Luas to link up with dart at Bray station. If so then having the Wexford trains terminating at Bray and freeing up the double line for even more Dart frequency would make sense and offer commuters a lot of options.
Although as you say, bimode trains could kill 2 birds with one stone.

Sam Russell

jvan wrote: »

I think a lot of people might not be aware of the lack of route options. The n11 through the Glen of the downs is the only north/south low level or easy gradient route.

Is the plan for the Luas to link up with dart at Bray station. If so then having the Wexford trains terminating at Bray and freeing up the double line for even more Dart frequency would make sense and offer commuters a lot of options.
Although as you say, bimode trains could kill 2 birds with one stone.

The trouble with the Wexford line is that the frequency is bad - 5 trains per day. No train arrives into Wexford from Dublin in the morning. What is the point of such bad service?

By terminating the service at Bray, then the trains could provide a south-bound service and could arrive in Wexford by 10 am, and could provide a few extra services each day. Also, the trains need to go quicker because a bus service is quicker, or will be with the new M11 bypassing Eniscorthy.

The Luas linking Bray to Sandyford would also be a game changer, as there is a lot of employment there.