The future of the Bray-Greystones line

Idbatterim

donvito99 wrote: »

Yeah that third lane on the M50 solved it alright

Is there a designated public transport lane at peak times on the m50? This scheme needed 3 lanes years ago.

If there was a plan for proper rail based public transport that would actually be delivered in the short to medium term , 3 lanes might be ok, with one designated as bus lane at peak times. But there isn’t

donvito99

Idbatterim wrote: »

Is there a designated public transport lane at peak times on the m50? This scheme needed 3 lanes years ago.

If there was a plan for proper rail based public transport that would actually be delivered in the short to medium term , 3 lanes might be ok, with one designated as bus lane at peak times. But there isn’t

But I don't see what the 3rd lane does to the N11? Why add two more when you could add one, call it a bus lane, and improve capacity?

Idbatterim

a poster on skyscrapercity has outlined the schemes with pp or applying for pp in the greystones area, the amount of development planned is huge! think its a page back from the link I posted (Im having issues accessing the exact page on a desktop)

https://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1895989&page=118

patrickbrophy18

I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop

I'm not too sure about elevation gradients. However, the section of side track between Convent Avenue and Putland Road would descend into a tunnel beneath the vicinity of New Court.

It would then travel in the direction of Boghall Road with a new station underground to serve ALDI and Power City.

Another station at ground level would be located at Bray Business Park on the Southern Cross Road and would serve the population on the Southern Cross Road who (in my opinion) have been completely side-lined from a public transport provision perspective.

Another ground level station would * eventually be provided behind Kilruddery House and Gardens which would be there to serve Bray Golf Club as well as Rathdown.

*:Pending any potential future growth in the population.

Again, this is purely hypothetical.

MrAbyss

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop

It is a great idea and along with solving the tunnel problem also highlights the catchment issues with most of the DART: that it only serves commuters on one side and fish and seagulls on the other. I like this, but it would cost more than anyone in Ireland would dare to spend. Also elevating the line would be easier.

SeanW

If we assume that nothing radical is going to be done with the current Bray-Greystones line (like a whole new tunnel), then is there anything to be gained by double-tracking the parts of the line immediately South of Bray and immediately North of Greystones. By that I mean, excluding the tunnels and the short sections between them

loyatemu

SeanW wrote: »

If we assume that nothing radical is going to be done with the current Bray-Greystones line (like a whole new tunnel), then is there anything to be gained by double-tracking the parts of the line immediately South of Bray and immediately North of Greystones. By that I mean, excluding the tunnels and the short sections between them

that option is examined in this report: http://derekmitchell.ie/wp-content/up/Jacobs_NTA-Greystones-Improvements19.pdf

though I assume that report is now sitting on a shelf as I haven't heard of the works being included in the Dart Upgrade.

loyatemu

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I came up with the following alignment on Google Earth (very hypothetical) and would indicate how the Bray to Greystones route could've looked if it had been aligned west of Bray Head instead of east:

Bray Greystones Western Rail Loop

I'm not too sure about elevation gradients. However, the section of side track between Convent Avenue and Putland Road would descend into a tunnel beneath the vicinity of New Court.

It would then travel in the direction of Boghall Road with a new station underground to serve ALDI and Power City.

Another station at ground level would be located at Bray Business Park on the Southern Cross Road and would serve the population on the Southern Cross Road who (in my opinion) have been completely side-lined from a public transport provision perspective. If they had been permitted to go inland at the time, it's likely it would have passed through the area marked "Templecarrig" as that's the flattest route, though it would still have required some deep cuttings.

Another ground level station would * eventually be provided behind Kilruddery House and Gardens which would be there to serve Bray Golf Club as well as Rathdown.

*:Pending any potential future growth in the population.

Again, this is purely hypothetical.

A line via Windgates would have to be in a tunnel as it's very steep. Also bear in mind the station in Greystones is only where it is because they chose the coastal in route in the C19th. It probably would have been further inland otherwise.

CatInABox

loyatemu wrote: »

that option is examined in this report: http://derekmitchell.ie/wp-content/up/Jacobs_NTA-Greystones-Improvements19.pdf

though I assume that report is now sitting on a shelf as I haven't heard of the works being included in the Dart Upgrade.

It was only submitted to the NTA in April, and has many questions yet to be answered by IR (I assume that they've answered them by now, IR can't be that bad, can they?). It's probably not far enough along to include in the Dart Expansion.

There's also a CBA aspect to it as well. If IR say that the line speed can be 40 kph, then they can increase from 2 to 3 trains per hour per direction. If the line speed is 30 kph, then only one direction per hour gets an extra train. At that point, is it worth it? There's plenty of other projects that'll have more benefit for a lot more people.

marno21

CatInABox wrote: »

It was only submitted to the NTA in April, and has many questions yet to be answered by IR (I assume that they've answered them by now, IR can't be that bad, can they?). It's probably not far enough along to include in the Dart Expansion.

There's also a CBA aspect to it as well. If IR say that the line speed can be 40 kph, then they can increase from 2 to 3 trains per hour per direction. If the line speed is 30 kph, then only one direction per hour gets an extra train. At that point, is it worth it? There's plenty of other projects that'll have more benefit for a lot more people.

One of the issues is that someone needs to take a long term approach to this line. If the coastal line becomes unviable in 10 years, then it's time to start the planning and design for the replacement tunnel inland now.

There is no feasible way that the line south of Bray can be just left to collapse into the sea. There is simply no way to cater for the passengers from Greystones and surroundings, and that's before the current ongoing expansion of the area is taken into account.

MrAbyss

marno21 wrote: »

One of the issues is that someone needs to take a long term approach to this line. If the coastal line becomes unviable in 10 years, then it's time to start the planning and design for the replacement tunnel inland now.

They will working on a slick video and a PDF in about 80 years time.

Del.Monte

Coastal erosion along the cliff section is greatly exaggerated and the new housing development at the harbour in Greystones will be in trouble long before the rail line.

prunudo

Del.Monte wrote: »

Coastal erosion along the cliff section is greatly exaggerated and the new housing development at the harbour in Greystones will be in trouble long before the rail line.

Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.

Del.Monte

prunudo wrote: »

Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.

I was referring to the actual Bray Head section as I know the north beach is eroding fast hence my comment regarding the new housing north of the harbour.

prunudo

Del.Monte wrote: »

I was referring to the actual Bray Head section as I know the north beach is eroding fast hence my comment regarding the new housing north of the harbour.

Yeah, I certainly wouldn't be spending €1m on a house down there anytime soon.

Edit. Not that I'd be spending a €1m on a house anywhere anytime soon either.

loyatemu

Bray Head is surrounded by rock armour, as is the marina development and attached houses. The bit in between is only protected by a beach that is practically non-existent at high tide.

Having said that if you look at the aerial photos on OSI.ie and the maps from the 19th century there, there doesn't seem to have been that much change in the line of the cliffs (though I know from local knowledge that it is eroding - the old railway bridge from before the line was moved inland was washed away only quite recently).

MrAbyss

prunudo wrote: »

Have you walked along the north beach in recent months? The erosion is real and far from an exaggeration. Maybe not endangering houses yet but the sandy cliffs are getting a battering with every north easterly or easterly storm.

Not the same geology as the rail line though.

prunudo

MrAbyss wrote: »

Not the same geology as the rail line though.

Hope not, the cutting that runs along the field with the cliff walk through it is less than 100m from the cliff edge.

prunudo

Some photos of the coastal defence works IR are doing this weekend on the Bray/Greystones section.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10157632057388805&id=200055098804&sfnsn=mo

Idbatterim

in a money no problem within reason scenario, what would be done here? take a route in land, leave existing line operational. Create this new line with multiple huge park and rides? Replace Dublin metro with DART and go all the way from south of greystones to link with the northern line?

CatInABox

Idbatterim wrote: »

in a money no problem within reason scenario, what would be done here? take a route in land, leave existing line operational. Create this new line with multiple huge park and rides? Replace Dublin metro with DART and go all the way from south of greystones to link with the northern line?

Dart Underground as currently envisaged, followed by a tunnel through Bray Head. The tunnel would probably be the simplest and quickest way of unlocking the potential of the existing lines south of there. Then two track the line all the way out past Wicklow, preferably all the way to Rosslare if I'm dreaming.

That'd really improve the links with Europe through the ferry port.

prunudo

I suppose given our fondness for half assed projects we only need a single bore for northbound trains. Should reduce the costs too.

Sam Russell

It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

prunudo

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

Not sure on costs of tunnelling but if there every is an investment in the line there should be a study into providing a Greystones north station and possibly even moving the current station further south to link up with the park and ride and creating a bus terminus too in the one location.

loyatemu

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

this was discussed earlier in the thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111326592&postcount=114

IMO it would be mad to just build a single line tunnel and continue to use the existing line - you can see from the photos posted above how much work they have to do to keep it secure. Double-line tunnel wouldn't cost much more, they could convert the existing route into greenway.

prunudo

loyatemu wrote: »

this was discussed earlier in the thread: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111326592&postcount=114

IMO it would be mad to just build a single line tunnel and continue to use the existing line - you can see from the photos posted above how much work they have to do to keep it secure. Double-line tunnel wouldn't cost much more, they could convert the existing route into greenway.

Good idea with the greenway, I was being flippant with the single bore idea but nothing would surprise me either.

Del.Monte

prunudo wrote: »

Good idea with the greenway, I was being flippant with the single bore idea but nothing would surprise me either.

Greenway would be a disaster for the seabird colonies and is not needed as the cliff walk is already there.

prunudo

Del.Monte wrote: »

Greenway would be a disaster for the seabird colonies and is not needed as the cliff walk is already there.

How would a greenway effect the colonies any more than the existing trainline or the parallel cliff walk which isn't really suitable for cycling.
At some point as a nation we're going to have to face some hard questions. We don't want private cars yet there's no public transport, we don't want urban sprawl yet we're not allowed high rise, we want underground but not under my neighbourhood, we want more cycle lanes or bus lanes but not at the expense of gardens, we want to green energy but not if I can see the wind turbines from my house.
Either we start seriously tackling these issues or we face a future of gridlock and a very broken society sitting for hours in their cars driving from an ever increasing commuter belt, existing rather than living.

Del.Monte

It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

prunudo

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

Unfortunately you're probably right, but whats the alternative. They can't keep granting planning permission and expecting everyone to drive on the n11.