The future of the Bray-Greystones line

bk

prunudo wrote: »

Unfortunately you're probably right, but whats the alternative. They can't keep granting planning permission and expecting everyone to drive on the n11.

Planning authorities: Hold my beer...

Sam Russell

prunudo wrote: »

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would be 5 km of tunnel with no stations. What would that cost?

Not sure on costs of tunnelling but if there every is an investment in the line there should be a study into providing a Greystones north station and possibly even moving the current station further south to link up with the park and ride and creating a bus terminus too in the one location.

I would never suggest a single line tunnel, either the tunnel would take both directions or it would be twin tunnels.

The real question is whether to take a new route south of the tunnel on a new alignment or connect at Greystones. A massive P&R south of Greystones makes a lot of sense.

Idbatterim

How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!

prunudo

Idbatterim wrote: »

How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!

4 or 5 years minimum I'd say, was talking to someone last week who was doing an ecology survey along the route last week. So not sure how that fits in the current time frame. I believe they were planning on having another public consultation before the end of the year.

ohographite

I would support a greenway on the current alignment if there was a double track line running from Bray to Greystones on an alternative route, but would the greenway last on that alignment if the sea is eroding it?

loyatemu

Idbatterim wrote: »

How long before the n11 road upgrade is done ? It will be unbearable there traffic with all the new development!

only a short section is actually due to be widened (J5 to J7) - the rest of the upgrade is likely to be junction improvements and possibly some parallel service roads to remove local traffic.

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's hardly worth arguing about anyway as it's not going to happen - the new tunnel or the greenway.

It won't happen. But don't worry there will be a billion euro a year available for new roads

u140acro3xs7dm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It won't happen. But don't worry there will be a billion euro a year available for new roads

Even if we get double track to Bray, the rest of the Dart line is incredibly slow with constant stopping between stops. Bray to town should take 25-30 mins, maximum. There needs to be at very least an overtaking track for commuter trains.

Del.Monte

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

Even if we get double track to Bray, the rest of the Dart line is incredibly slow with constant stopping between stops. Bray to town should take 25-30 mins, maximum. There needs to be at very least an overtaking track for commuter trains.

Just where do you think that this 'overtaking' track could be fitted in?

u140acro3xs7dm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just where do you think that this 'overtaking' track could be fitted in?

We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.

loyatemu

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.

the Dart is too slow, it has a lot of slack built into the timetable and some sections have very low speed limits. Bray->Pearse was around 30 minutes when the Dart started, it's now 40 mins (with one extra stop). They should be able to increase the speed limits between Killiney and Dun Laoghaire with some track work.

The case for building passing loops on that line is weak though - the numbers using the train south of Wicklow Town are very low, the cost/benefit of building loops would be poor.

AAAAAAAAA

loyatemu wrote: »

The case for building passing loops on that line is weak though - the numbers using the train south of Wicklow Town are very low

This isn't because demand for the line is low, it's because the service is so infrequent and at such useless times that people either drive or take the bus.

There are only 5 services in each direction and the final train back from Dublin is at 18.30

Of course no one is going to use the train to Dublin when you have four times the frequency of service and all-day availability with the bus, in addition to the obvious time saving.

Additionally, commuting between towns in Wicklow by train (with the exception of Bray-Greystones) is functionally impossible. The first train southbound from Bray is at 10.20 - You essentially have to drive to get to Wicklow Town or Arklow (and yeah, people do make those commutes). You then have a four hour gap between trains during home-time heading northbound between 14.xx and 18.xx, useless for commuters [edit: and you're outta luck if you want to head home after 18.xx, even though you only got to work some time around 11]

Macy0161

Without knowing the zoning other issues, I've always felt it was a bit of miss not considering a single line loop rather than double tracking - Greystones, effectively up the Farrankelly Road (serving Charlesland/ Kilcoole etc), aligned to the N11* (offering Park and Ride Options) and back to the existing line (not necessarily to Bray Daly.

*N11 makes more sense than every widening the road anyway, especially as segregated bus lanes/ increased bus capacity don't seem to be on the agenda.

bk

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

We will need to start buying houses and land using cp. If we are talking about new tunnels through bray head, then buying up gardens can't be too hard - that's the plan for bus connect. The dart as is, is far too slow.

You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.

u140acro3xs7dm

bk wrote: »

You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.

As people have mentioned, it is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. There could also be a demand for express Darts - stopping at Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock then town. If you want any of the stops in between, you wait for every 2nd or 3rd Dart. There are thousands of houses getting built south of Bray, most new residents work in Dublin - something has to happen.

bk

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

As people have mentioned, it is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. There could also be a demand for express Darts - stopping at Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock then town. If you want any of the stops in between, you wait for every 2nd or 3rd Dart. There are thousands of houses getting built south of Bray, most new residents work in Dublin - something has to happen.

It simply won't happen. Even with the increased numbers in Bray, etc. they still wouldn't add up to enough to justify spending billions.

With DARTs every 10 minutes, you can't have express DARTs as they would just end up running into the back of the next DART. And this is likely to just get worse in future as we are likely to see 5 minute DARTs, etc. eventually.

Folks who move into these areas need to be realistic. This isn't going to change in our lifetime. If you want to live in a nice seaside town, great, but you are going to have a long commute. Want a short commute, move closer to the city.

AAAAAAAAA

bk wrote: »

You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

A hundred million, at worst. It's a 2-3km railway tunnel with no frills

blanch152

bk wrote: »

You are talking about spending billions for a line that carries just 600 people a day!

Neither a new tunnel or triple tracking will happen in our life times.

It is interesting to see threads about Greystones and Naas, when there are far bigger public transport issues in larger suburbs much closer to the city centre such as Blanchardstown, Finglas, Coolock, Tallaght etc.

AAAAAAAAA

blanch152 wrote: »

It is interesting to see threads about Greystones and Naas, when there are far bigger public transport issues in larger suburbs much closer to the city centre such as Blanchardstown, Finglas, Coolock, Tallaght etc.

Go ahead and make those threads, you'll surely have a significant enough audience.

As it stands, Finglas is to have a metro built through it and the rail to Blanchardstown is being electrified and upgraded to DART service. All four are to have significant improvements through Busconnects. They, and Kildare, aren't being forgotten when compared to the dearth of investment into Wicklow

bk

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

A hundred million, at worst. It's a 2-3km railway tunnel with no frills

Rafael Flat Numerical was talking about triple or quad tracking the line from Bray into the city center, so that you could have express trains running beside the DARTS, which would cost billions.

A new tunnel between Bray and Greystones is a separate (though connected) issue.

Having said that, even about a new tunnel, people need to be realistic. No such project has ever even been mentioned in any Dublin Region development plans and it isn't on the radar in any shape or form.

There is some plans about extra track length either side of the hill and thus perhaps being able to increase frequency of DART to Greystones by one train an hour. But even that plan seems to be long fingered for now, though I expect it will happen over the next decade.

Again folks thinking to move to Greystones and beyond need to take this into account. Not much is likely to change over the next few decades.

Sam Russell

Rafael Flat Numerical wrote: »

As people have mentioned, it is due to lack of supply, not lack of demand. There could also be a demand for express Darts - stopping at Bray, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock then town. If you want any of the stops in between, you wait for every 2nd or 3rd Dart. There are thousands of houses getting built south of Bray, most new residents work in Dublin - something has to happen.

You would need to include Sydney Parade, Lansdowne Road, and GDC to that list. Terminating south bound Darts at DL might be an idea as well.

Sydney Parade feeds UCD and St Vincent's Hospital, Landsdowne Rd feeds the RDS and new office for Facebook, and GCD feeds Google.

A better idea is to stop the diesels south of GCD as they are not faster than Darts and are slower travelling, and gain nothing from not stopping at various stations.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

ET_phone_home was talking about triple or quad tracking the line from Bray into the city center, so that you could have express trains running beside the DARTS, which would cost billions.

A new tunnel between Bray and Greystones is a separate (though connected) issue.

Having said that, even about a new tunnel, people need to be realistic. No such project has ever even been mentioned in any Dublin Region development plans and it isn't on the radar in any shape or form.

There is some plans about extra track length either side of the hill and thus perhaps being able to increase frequency of DART to Greystones by one train an hour. But even that plan seems to be long fingered for now, though I expect it will happen over the next decade.

Again folks thinking to move to Greystones and beyond need to take this into account. Not much is likely to change over the next few decades.

I don't think anyone expecting anything prior to 2030 - as you say, the best we can hope for is a 20 minute service to Greystones by the mid 2020s if they double the sections either side of Bray Head. This is in BusConnects so it is at least being considered.

blanch152

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Go ahead and make those threads, you'll surely have a significant enough audience.

As it stands, Finglas is to have a metro built through it and the rail to Blanchardstown is being electrified and upgraded to DART service. All four are to have significant improvements through Busconnects. They, and Kildare, aren't being forgotten when compared to the dearth of investment into Wicklow

Finglas village is 2.4 km from the nearest proposed Metro station at Our Lady of Victories Church.

My point really is that the investment required to upgrade the Bray-Greystones line is not merited given the huge cost and the bigger priorities elsewhere in Dublin.

marno21

blanch152 wrote: »

Finglas village is 2.4 km from the nearest proposed Metro station at Our Lady of Victories Church.

My point really is that the investment required to upgrade the Bray-Greystones line is not merited given the huge cost and the bigger priorities elsewhere in Dublin.

I’d rephrase it as this

The Bray-Greystones upgrade is a no brainer. But this being Ireland/Dublin, the list of no brainers is so long I’d have to stop halfway through for a toilet break.

prunudo

bk wrote: »

ET_phone_home was talking about triple or quad tracking the line from Bray into the city center, so that you could have express trains running beside the DARTS, which would cost billions.

A new tunnel between Bray and Greystones is a separate (though connected) issue.

Having said that, even about a new tunnel, people need to be realistic. No such project has ever even been mentioned in any Dublin Region development plans and it isn't on the radar in any shape or form.

There is some plans about extra track length either side of the hill and thus perhaps being able to increase frequency of DART to Greystones by one train an hour. But even that plan seems to be long fingered for now, though I expect it will happen over the next decade.

Again folks thinking to move to Greystones and beyond need to take this into account. Not much is likely to change over the next few decades.

Just in regards to this, you're dead right but when you see the lack of housing and the bs estate agents put in their marketing you can see how people get sucked into buying. Most people don't realise the traffic levels on n11 in the mornings until they see it with their own eyes.
Housing estate in Ashford for sale earlier this year referencing the m50 only 20 mins away, a bus service to the city from the village and only 5 min drive to Wicklow train station. All factually correct but in reality not true for daily commuting.

MaccaTacca

bk wrote: »

It simply won't happen. Even with the increased numbers in Bray, etc. they still wouldn't add up to enough to justify spending billions.

With DARTs every 10 minutes, you can't have express DARTs as they would just end up running into the back of the next DART. And this is likely to just get worse in future as we are likely to see 5 minute DARTs, etc. eventually.

Folks who move into these areas need to be realistic. This isn't going to change in our lifetime. If you want to live in a nice seaside town, great, but you are going to have a long commute. Want a short commute, move closer to the city.

The crazy thing about Dublin is that most places rely on a 40/45 min bus during rush hour to get in or out of the city - realistically you’re as well relying on the dart from bray which can take 35-45 mins depending on the part of the city centre you need to get to at any time of day.

ohographite

I think a third track between Lansdowne Road and Dún Laoghaire for intercity trains would be a worthwhile investment.
For the most part, the space is there. No major demolition or digging of cuttings is necessary, except for the bridge between Seapoint and Salthill & Monkstown.*
It might also involve closing the road to the sailing school in Dún Laoghaire and replacing it with a level crossing or bridge.

If done right, it could reduce journey times by 30 minutes, which would make the Dublin to Rosslare intercity service more competitive with private car journey times.
I have no idea how much this would cost, but I'm guessing it'd be well under a billion.
I don't believe this will ever happen, but I still hope it happens as soon as possible.

*I am aware there is a tunnel just south of Blackrock, and I will not ask to widen that, and just leave a short double track section there.

donvito99

You still have the level crossings at Lansdowne, Sydney Parade, Sandymount and Merrion Gates causing delays and lower speeds. If you're widening you may as well be raising the line, which isn't going to happen unless you do this overnight without the knowledge of the locals

Sam Russell

ohographite wrote: »

I think a third track between Lansdowne Road and Dún Laoghaire for intercity trains would be a worthwhile investment.
For the most part, the space is there. No major demolition or digging of cuttings is necessary, except for the bridge between Seapoint and Salthill & Monkstown.*
It might also involve closing the road to the sailing school in Dún Laoghaire and replacing it with a level crossing or bridge.

If done right, it could reduce journey times by 30 minutes, which would make the Dublin to Rosslare intercity service more competitive with private car journey times.
I have no idea how much this would cost, but I'm guessing it'd be well under a billion.
I don't believe this will ever happen, but I still hope it happens as soon as possible.

*I am aware there is a tunnel just south of Blackrock, and I will not ask to widen that, and just leave a short double track section there.

There is no way any third track can be put in between Lansdowne Rd and Sydney Parade. There is scope to put extra track south of Merrion Gates, but extremely disruptive, and problems with the wildlife sit at Booterstown - so no way there. They have recently removed the siding northside of DL on the up side - no idea why.

The only improvement would be to implement the Merrion Gates plan to put a bridge next to the Our Lady Queen of Peace church, which would remove Merrion Gates. They could also remove the gates Serpentine Ave by raising the line by 2 or 3 metres and dropping the road by a similar amount. Other than that, nothing can be done north of Shankill.

DL to Glenageary is in a cutting/tunnel with severe speed restrictions, so there is a problem looking for a solution.

ohographite

donvito99 wrote: »

You still have the level crossings at Lansdowne, Sydney Parade, Sandymount and Merrion Gates causing delays and lower speeds. If you're widening you may as well be raising the line, which isn't going to happen unless you do this overnight without the knowledge of the locals

I'm hoping if the track is ever widened, all the level crossings would be replaced with bridges.
If this were to happen, I'd absolutely expect locals to oppose it, which is a reason why I don't believe this will be a reality, ever.