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Extreme hate preacher banned from all Europe to visit Ireland

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Comments

  • #52
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    salmocab wrote: »
    Ah In fairness he wasn’t making that point at all.

    That was my reading of this

    I fear that banning people from entering the country, because we they inspire hate is wrong.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #53
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    salmocab and joeytheparrot I think this deserves a good debate. Something I dont have the time for at the moment.
    I hope you dont think I'm defending this pastor, or what he believes in. That's not the case at all.

    My fear is we go down a slippery slope of banning more and more people because they upset the majority, and we go down the route of over policing.

    If I have time this evening, I will return, and hopefully join in the debate again

    I see your argument and I understand what your saying I just don’t think that this is the thin edge of any wedge. There will be more bans in the future of course but I don’t think we live in a society that would put up with closing down or not admitting people without very good cause.


  • #54
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    That was my reading of this

    The ‘we’ was clearly an auto correct or typing mistake


  • #55
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    salmocab wrote: »
    The ‘we’ was clearly an auto correct or typing mistake

    I think there is a misunderstanding here. Take the "we" completely out of the sentence. I felt that there was argument there thats its completely ok to incite hatred against lgbt people and that we should have an extreme form of free speech where calls for murder and slaughter of lgbt people because they are lgbt are perfectly fine just because they are "free speech"

    Theres a human rights balance here.

    There is the right to freedom of expression as a human right but there is also human rights of lgbt people to be free from from discrimination, persecution and to be safe.

    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #56
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think there is a misunderstanding here. Take the "we" completely out of the sentence. I felt that there was argument there thats its completely ok to incite hatred against lgbt people and that we should have an extreme form of free speech where calls for murder and slaughter of lgbt people because they are lgbt are perfectly fine just because they are "free speech"

    Theres a human rights balance here.

    There is the right to freedom of expression as a human right but there is also human rights of lgbt people to be free from from discrimination, persecution and to be safe.

    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    I’m only arguing bazwarf didn’t say it, which I don’t think he did or even suggested he believes it. He was making a point about banning people from the country based on their beliefs is a bad idea, I disagree with him but I see the argument he’s making.
    I think your overreaching here suggesting what he’s okay with.


  • #57
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    This isnt about mere offence. This is about someone who is more or less calling for us all to be slaughtered becsuse of our sexual orientation or gender identity. There is a reason over 30 European countries have banned him.

    And yet we are welcoming back into those countries Islamic extremists who wanted everyone dead.

    A bit of a contradiction!


  • #58
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Maxton Hot Grimace wrote: »
    And yet we are welcoming back into those countries Islamic extremists who wanted everyone dead.

    A bit of a contradiction!

    Everyone?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #59
    eagle eye
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,212 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    Everyone?
    Pickety pick, pick, pick.


  • #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    People who make the extreme free speech argument often say they dont support the hate speech being broadcast etc but they are ok with it because it is free speech. In a sense though being ok with it is supporting its broadcast and is allowing the human rights of lgbt people (to be free from persecution and discrimination and to be safe) to be breached.

    No it's not. As a lot of people said, this is literally causing the Streisand effect. If no credence was given to this preacher, a handful of bigots would have been in attendance. Now anyone who had bigoted tendencies are aware of him. He will claim that the evil gays have tried to ban his speech and the only way to win is to fight back.

    I'd prefer to be able to see people's bigoted nature rather than for the to suppress their hatred and let it simmer under the surface. At least you know who you are dealing with then.


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  • #61
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,450 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    No it's not. As a lot of people said, this is literally causing the Streisand effect. If no credence was given to this preacher, a handful of bigots would have been in attendance. Now anyone who had bigoted tendencies are aware of him. He will claim that the evil gays have tried to ban his speech and the only way to win is to fight back.

    I'd prefer to be able to see people's bigoted nature rather than for the to suppress their hatred and let it simmer under the surface. At least you know who you are dealing with then.

    He would have been all over the papers once he was here spouting his crap, we’ve just heard about him a bit earlier. This way we don’t have to see him all over the papers along with the inevitable protests whilst he’s here.


  • #62
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,148 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No it's not. As a lot of people said, this is literally causing the Streisand effect. If no credence was given to this preacher, a handful of bigots would have been in attendance. Now anyone who had bigoted tendencies are aware of him. He will claim that the evil gays have tried to ban his speech and the only way to win is to fight back.

    I'd prefer to be able to see people's bigoted nature rather than for the to suppress their hatred and let it simmer under the surface. At least you know who you are dealing with then.

    This isnt merely hate speech though. We are talking about someone who was thrown out of Botswana for calling for lgbt people to be stoned to death. This idea of extreme freedom of speech is very dangerous because it puts peoples lives at risk. There is a balance that is needed between the right to freedom of expression versus the right to be safe and free from discrimination. In this case they chose to uphold the rights of lgbt people to be safe and to be free from discrimination. I think its a wise decision and they havent exactly used this law excessively in 20 years.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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