Parents who continue sending their kids to a school knowing they are being bullied

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I don't condone bullying.

It's a fact of life. Bullying has been going on since the dawn of mankind. It's essential that kids develop a thick skin and a toughness, otherwise how are they going to strike out on their own in life?

Kind of contradicting yourself here.

Saying it's "been going on since the damn of Mankind" is most certainly condoning it.

Church on Tuesday

Walter Rough Nag wrote: »

That's the ideal but if the kid is on their own against a gang, with zero backup from either other children or the school... well I don't like those odds.

Yup, in which case in a severe scenario like that, it's best to take the kid out.

Church on Tuesday

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Kind of contradicting yourself here.

Saying it's "been going on since the damn of Mankind" is most certainly condoning it.

There is a big difference between was is accepted fact and condoning something.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

There is a big difference between was is accepted fact and condoning something.

Firstly, I'd argue against your word of the use of "fact"; secondly, fact is irrelevant. You are accepting of the concept of bullying and justifying it be saying it's always happened. That is the very definition of condoning.

VinLieger

Walter Rough Nag wrote: »

My friend did, out of a duty of care to her son whose mental wellbeing was concerning her. It's not like he was benefitting academically anyway.

Did i say it was impossible? Its simply very very difficult and not a simple decision and action as the OP seems to think or is implying

Hyzepher

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I don't condone bullying.

It's a fact of life. Bullying has been going on since the dawn of mankind. It's essential that kids develop a thick skin and a toughness, otherwise how are they going to strike out on their own in life?

Ideally you kick the bully out of the school in severe cases. But most cases of bullying aren't severe, hence the need to toughen up a little and give as good back.

This is one of the most naive statements i've ever seen. Kids are bullied/singled out for a reason and for the most part that reason is that they are the types of kids that find it hard to fight back.

Not all kids have the capacity to "deal" with bullying and to state that the onus is on them to "adapt" to the bullying is ridiculous and actually dangerous.

iamwhoiam

The victim blaming has to stop . It seems the victim in many cases is removed while the bullies carry on and suffer no consequences.

Church on Tuesday

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Firstly, I'd argue against your word of the use of "fact"; secondly, fact is irrelevant. You are accepting of the concept of bullying and justifying it be saying it's always happened. That is the very definition of condoning.

You're simply just looking for an argument.

I'm 'accepting' of the fact that bullying can and will happen. If you think bullying can be eradicated from the human condition then you are frankly deluded and painfully naive.

Now, I have very clearly in my original post stated that schools should have a zero tolerance approach to bullying and indeed also the workplace and that in severe cases the child should be removed. In ideal scenarios the bully should be removed rather than the victim of bullying.

In fact I'm of the largely unpopular opinion that those who seek to disrupt other students should be tossed out of school altogether and made learn a trade or something after the age of 16. But that's another debate for another day.

I plan on becoming a teacher in the near future. I can assure you bullying will not be tolerated in my classroom.

So now that I have helpfully condensed my previous posts for you, where is your viable evidence of my 'condoning' bullying?

Church on Tuesday

Hyzepher wrote: »

This is one of the most naive statements i've ever seen. Kids are bullied/singled out for a reason and for the most part that reason is that they are the types of kids that find it hard to fight back.

Not all kids have the capacity to "deal" with bullying and to state that the onus is on them to "adapt" to the bullying is ridiculous and actually dangerous.

I never once said that.

If the child is the kind that can't fight back(verbally I may add) and if your school can't or won't get rid of the bully, take that child out of the school then or home school them.

Most kids who go to school are going to have unpleasant things said or happen to them at some stage in their schooling. This is a fact folks.

It happens in the adult world too.

If a child has to run to their parents over every little thing in school then the child is on a hiding to nothing in their later adult life.

LirW

Bullying comes in a load of nuances, there isn't one kind of bullying.
There's bullying that can be dealt with quite easily, there's bullying that can have a devastating impact and it's not always easy to get the help you need.

It makes me quite angry to read things like "it's part of everyday life, toughen up" when there's just a high profile case in court dealing with the murder of a teenage girl where bullying got horrifyingly out of hand.

Not every child is equipped to deal with every sort of bullying. Bullies often know exactly how to get away with it and in many cases the parents simply don't give a hoot that their child is putting others down.

I went to school in the early 2000s when bullying badly affected me. I was a bit of a quiet child and had good grades but somehow I never fitted in and the other kids took that up. My materials and shoes were stolen on more than one occasion, I was excluded from everything and it went as far as having to go to hospital with a concussion because my peers were throwing hard objects at my head.
Now my mother tried to do something about it and came in on several occasions. Nothing ever happened because the teachers took a dislike to my mother because we were poor and despite her working, she barely made ends meet and often couldn't pay for things in school. So it was somehow tolerated that I wasn't treated well by my peers and even teachers, some just loved to embarrass me on several occasions.
I hated that school so much and no, I don't think this shaped me positively in any way, I just wished I could do without that.

Edit: one of the main perpetrators went on to become a teacher.

Feisar

Hal3000 wrote: »

Schools are the same as the judiciary here. Both are afraid to tackle the issue. Principal's have no backbone in dealing with this. Bullying should be immediate expulsion

However can bullying be proven beyond reasonable doubt like a criminal case?

Cryptopagan

Charles Ingles wrote: »

Kids have to learn how to fend for themselves in the world.
Supported by their parents of course.
You can't just take them out of school or remove them from confrontation.
Life is tough

What, kids need to fend for themselves against bullies, because they need to learn about confrontation or something? That is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on here.

Danzy

Athena Wooden Succotash wrote: »

How many times do we have to this ,I cannot understand how/why how their parents go to work everyday knowing their kid is being tormented and as if they are powerless to do anything.

"oh well we spoke to the principal and they are keeping an eye on it and they moved desk"

If we have learned anything, it's that schools will never accept or admit to incidents of bullying and will try to blame the kid being bulled i.e. their shy, mild mannered, socially awkward, they need CBT.

If I had kids and they were being bullied, I would just pull them out of school and send them to another one, teach them at home or do something/anything but what I wouldn't do is march them off to be mentally and physical tormented everyday in a school that they are miserable in.

Depending on the circumstances but your approach sounds like being a disaster for the child.

Gimme A Pound

VinLieger wrote: »

Did i say it was impossible? Its simply very very difficult

It's not. When it's gone too far, you take the kid out for their safety and mental wellbeing, and work it out afterwards. Where there's a will there's a way. They'll be behind in their schoolwork anyway, but at least without the additional damage of bullying.

This of course would be after exploring all the other avenues. I agree it's not a decision to be taken lightly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

You're simply just looking for an argument.

I'm 'accepting' of the fact that bullying can and will happen. If you think bullying can be eradicated from the human condition then you are frankly deluded and painfully naive.

QED

Now, I have very clearly in my original post stated that schools should have a zero tolerance approach to bullying and indeed also the workplace and that in severe cases the child should be removed. In ideal scenarios the bully should be removed rather than the victim of bullying.

In fact I'm of the largely unpopular opinion that those who seek to disrupt other students should be tossed out of school altogether and made learn a trade or something after the age of 16. But that's another debate for another day.

Contradicts your earlier statement, i.e. victims "should just deal with it".

I plan on becoming a teacher in the near future. I can assure you bullying will not be tolerated in my classroom.

So you won't be relying on the kids to just "deal with it"?

So now that I have helpfully condensed my previous posts for you, where is your viable evidence of my 'condoning' bullying?

Saying that kid should just deal with it and that it's always happened. Answered this before.

Some of your statements did condone bullying, as has been demonstrated. The fact that some don't, just brings me back to my original point that you are contradicting yourself.

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I never once said that.

If the child is the kind that can't fight back(verbally I may add) and if your school can't or won't get rid of the bully, take that child out of the school then or home school them.

Most kids who go to school are going to have unpleasant things said or happen to them at some stage in their schooling. This is a fact folks.

It happens in the adult world too.

If a child has to run to their parents over every little thing in school then the child is on a hiding to nothing in their later adult life.

Schools have a legal responsibility to create a safe environment; and bullying is not something that needs to happen so that the child can learn something from it about how to adjust to when it happens in adult life (and yes, that IS what you are saying). If that was the case, why would you stop it from happening in your classroom??

(Hypothetical question)

flowerchild

As a parent, you need to act if your children are being bullied. What works best is to:

1. Document in writing in a letter to the principal each day it happens (if it is above the line of behaviour needing action);

2. Arrange professional psychological support for your child, if needed and you can afford;

3. Do not speak to the other parent or child;

4. Do not go to a meeting at the school since this generally changes nothing, costs you wages, gives the school an illusion of action even though they have done nothing, and is an opportunity for them to indicate you/your child are the problems/these things happen etc etc;

5. Do not raise your voice, yell at or threaten school staff;

6. Be loving and supportive to your child, encourage them to talk with you as soon as they get home, shower them with love then shift their attention to something else fun while you write. Do not imply they are weak.

This system really does work. Stops bullying in its tracks and prevents you as a parent being accused of being a bully as you protect your child.

It’s all over within a week.

Church on Tuesday

LirW wrote: »

Bullying comes in a load of nuances, there isn't one kind of bullying.
There's bullying that can be dealt with quite easily, there's bullying that can have a devastating impact and it's not always easy to get the help you need.

It makes me quite angry to read things like "it's part of everyday life, toughen up" when there's just a high profile case in court dealing with the murder of a teenage girl where bullying got horrifyingly out of hand.

Not every child is equipped to deal with every sort of bullying. Bullies often know exactly how to get away with it and in many cases the parents simply don't give a hoot that their child is putting others down.

I went to school in the early 2000s when bullying badly affected me. I was a bit of a quiet child and had good grades but somehow I never fitted in and the other kids took that up. My materials and shoes were stolen on more than one occasion, I was excluded from everything and it went as far as having to go to hospital with a concussion because my peers were throwing hard objects at my head.
Now my mother tried to do something about it and came in on several occasions. Nothing ever happened because the teachers took a dislike to my mother because we were poor and despite her working, she barely made ends meet and often couldn't pay for things in school. So it was somehow tolerated that I wasn't treated well by my peers and even teachers, some just loved to embarrass me on several occasions.
I hated that school so much and no, I don't think this shaped me positively in any way, I just wished I could do without that.

Edit: one of the main perpetrators went on to become a teacher.

Horrific and completely unprofessional of that school, absolutely disgusting.

Faugheen

I was once suspended for 'fighting back' after about 2 years of it.

One day it all came to a head and I snapped, and I was caught punching the bully multiple times in the face to the point where he needed hospital treatment (he needed stitches, he wasn't in any life-threatening danger).

Basically because I told the principal that I'd do it again in the circumstances, he saw that as me having no remorse and they were left with no option but to suspend me, and my case was brought before the Board of Management for possible expulsion.

Thankfully, the Board saw sense and actually listened to what me and my parents had to say. There were also parents of other lads in my class who stood up on my behalf. The suspension stood but I wasn't expelled.

I had to apologise, but the bully didn't because like a coward he and his cronies denied everything.

However, I never had a problem with bullying after that, and the school started to up its game with regards to dealing with bullying.

TL;DR - some schools bullying policy was completely backwards, I wouldn't be surprised if it's still the case elsewhere.

valoren

Part of parenting is to teach your children how to deal with bullies. That includes teaching them jabs, right hooks, uppercuts, eye gouging, kicking and a whole litany of physically violent reactions. The lesson they need to learn is that while they must treat their peers how they want to be treated themselves that if they are subjected to bullying then the best way to stop it is physically reacting. If the child get's into trouble with the weak administration then the adult get's involved suggesting that if the damn school isn't going to stop their kid from getting bullied then the kid will take it upon themselves to stop it. Extreme? Perhaps but the key point is that none of the above would happen if they weren't bullied in the first place and nothing stops a bully faster than a target who doesn't take it and is willing to dole it back.

nice_guy80

too many parents just are not prepared to punish their children and set and enforce proper rules and boundaries

nice_guy80

valoren wrote: »

Part of parenting is to teach your children how to deal with bullies. That includes teaching them jabs, right hooks, uppercuts, eye gouging, kicking and a whole litany of physically violent reactions. The lesson they need to learn is that while they must treat their peers how they want to be treated themselves that if they are subjected to bullying them the best way to stop it is physically reacting. If the child get's into trouble with the weak administration then the adult get's involved suggesting that if the damn school isn't going to stop their kid from getting bullied then the kid will take it upon themselves to stop it. Extreme? Perhaps but the key point is that none of the above would happen if they weren't bullied in the first place and nothing stops a bully faster than a target who doesn't take it and is willing to dole it back.

most studies show that violence back towards a bully makes bullying worse

being positive, having good peer support and just saying no to someone is a much better strategy

Church on Tuesday

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

QED



Contradicts your earlier statement, i.e. victims "should just deal with it".



So you won't be relying on the kids to just "deal with it"?



Saying that kid should just deal with it and that it's always happened. Answered this before.

Some of your statements did condone bullying, as has been demonstrated. The fact that some don't, just brings me back to my original point that you are contradicting yourself.




Schools have a legal responsibility to create a safe environment; and bullying is not something that needs to happen so that the child can learn something from it about how to adjust to when it happens in adult life (and yes, that IS what you are saying). If that was the case, why would you stop it from happening in your classroom??

(Hypothetical question)

I don't condone bullying.

It's a fact of life. Bullying has been going on since the dawn of mankind. It's essential that kids develop a thick skin and a toughness, otherwise how are they going to strike out on their own in life?

Ideally you kick the bully out of the school in severe cases. But most cases of bullying aren't severe, hence the need to toughen up a little and give as good back.

---

Apart from severe cases of bullying, ie systematic instances of bullying and physical assault, I personally think there is a lot to be said of a child being able to stand up for themselves. Most cases of bullying are not severe, usually snide comments about dress, personal interests, perhaps family etc.

Now in those instances I feel a child has to develop a thick skin. That may be an unpopular opinion with some here but there you go. It will stand them in good stead later in life; otherwise they will be walked all over in their adult life.

I really feel like I'm stating the obvious with that, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my earlier post.

You mention the classroom. The classroom is a controlled environment, but you'd be surprised as to what can happen. Any teacher worth his or her salt will be watching the classroom like a hawk and will be able to size up the demographic pretty quick.

I can only speak for myself and schools have their own protocol with this stuff, but if I were to witness any instances of bullying, i.e physical bullying, the matter would be dealt with on the spot, with that student severely reprimanded and marched to the principal preferably on the spot.

Outside of the classroom and on the way to classes, communal areas etc, if the bullying amounts to taunts or snide remarks then the child should give as good back (verbally). Or even better still, simply ignore.

Anything more serious then that, then the school MUST step in and deal with the matter and if the institution won't do that, then the child is best taken out of that environment.

You also have to bear in mind that bullying has a new ally in the form of social media and no teacher has control over that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

flowerchild wrote: »

As a parent, you need to act if your children are being bullied. What works best is to:

1. Document in writing in a letter to the principal each day it happens (if it is above the line of behaviour needing action);

2. Arrange professional psychological support for your child, if needed and you can afford;

3. Do not speak to the other parent or child;

4. Do not go to a meeting at the school since this generally changes nothing, costs you wages, gives the school an illusion of action even though they have done nothing, and is an opportunity for them to indicate you/your child are the problems/these things happen etc etc;

5. Do not raise your voice, yell at or threaten school staff;

6. Be loving and supportive to your child, encourage them to talk with you as soon as they get home, shower them with love then shift their attention to something else fun while you write. Do not imply they are weak.

This system really does work. Stops bullying in its tracks and prevents you as a parent being accused of being a bully as you protect your child.

It’s all over within a week.

So, don;t engage at all with the school?

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I don't condone bullying.

It's a fact of life.

Sayign the same thing over and over again doesn't change its meaning.

Ideally you kick the bully out of the school in severe cases. But most cases of bullying aren't severe, hence the need to toughen up a little and give as good back.

---

And again, contradiction. What about the no so sevear cases? Just accept that it's been going on since the dawn of mankind and that the child has to man up?

Apart from severe cases of bullying, ie systematic instances of bullying and physical assault, I personally think there is a lot to be said of a child being able to stand up for themselves. Most cases of bullying are not severe, usually snide comments about dress, personal interests, perhaps family etc.

Now in those instances I feel a child has to develop a thick skin. That may be an unpopular opinion with some here but there you go. It will stand them in good stead later in life; otherwise they will be walked all over in their adult life.

I really feel like I'm stating the obvious with that, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my earlier post.

You mention the classroom. The classroom is a controlled environment, but you'd be surprised as to what can happen. Any teacher worth his or her salt will be watching the classroom like a hawk and will be able to size up the demographic pretty quick.

I can only speak for myself and schools have their own protocol with this stuff, but if I were to witness any instances of bullying, i.e physical bullying, the matter would be dealt with on the spot, with that student severely reprimanded and marched to the principal preferably on the spot.

Outside of the classroom and on the way to classes, communal areas etc, if the bullying amounts to taunts or snide remarks then the child should give as good back (verbally). Or even better still, simply ignore.

Anything more serious then that, then the school MUST step in and deal with the matter and if the institution won't do that, then the child is best taken out of that environment.

You also have to bear in mind that bullying has a new ally in the form of social media and no teacher has control over that.

Again, saying the same thing doesn't change it's meaning.

You're going around in cricles. I'm done.

Church on Tuesday

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, don;t engage at all with the school?



Sayign the same thing over and over again doesn't change its meaning.



And again, contradiction. What about the no so sevear cases? Just accept that it's been going on since the dawn of mankind and that the child has to man up?



Again, saying the same thing doesn't change it's meaning.

You're going around in cricles. I'm done.

K.

Bye.

Dravokivich

I know of a kid who switched schools due to bullying. But to be honest, there is also a requirement to have the child attend a school. If my son is absent for greater than 20 days in the school year, he considered not to be attending. And that would also cause other issues for me.

Zorya

Dravokivich wrote: »

I know of a kid who switched schools due to bullying. But to be honest, there is also a requirement to have the child attend a school. If my son is absent for greater than 20 days in the school year, he considered not to be attending. And that would also cause other issues for me.

There is not a requirement for children to attend a school. Article 42 of the Irish Constitution provides for this.

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3.1 The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.

3.2 The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

Anyone in Ireland can, under this constitutional right, educate their own children.

As my children were horrifically bullied in a very rural school, and the bullying could not be ameliorated in spite of great effort, and there were no other schools available, I home-schooled them as per our constitutional right.
Years later the school principle apologised to me for the school's abject failure to handle the bullying. It was decent of them, but fat lot of good it would have done them if I had not responded. The children enjoyed the experience and have excelled academically, and it was a really good fun for us all. I do not, however, advise it generally unless people are prepared to have patience and commit to significant work.

Mrs OBumble

Hal3000 wrote: »

Schools are the same as the judiciary here. Both are afraid to tackle the issue. Principal's have no backbone in dealing with this. Bullying should be immediate expulsion

But school-bullies (sic) are children too. Often they are acting out of having ****ty background themselves, and not having been taught how to treat people well. They are being bullied by parents, neighbours or older siblings, and they are simply acting out of what they know.

Explusion is really just bullying them: using power to systematically exclude them.

The only way to break the cycle is to teach them to behave better - and convince them that doing so it worthwhile. This ain't easy. But it's the only realistic option.

Often when a school appears to be doing "nothing" - it's because confidentiality means they cannot share with your details about the perpetrator's difficult home / family life, and what the school is doing to help.

Faugheen wrote: »

I was once suspended for 'fighting back' after about 2 years of it.

One day it all came to a head and I snapped, and I was caught punching the bully multiple times in the face to the point where he needed hospital treatment (he needed stitches, he wasn't in any life-threatening danger).

So he bullied you - and you physically bullied him back. You were a bully too.

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I can only speak for myself and schools have their own protocol with this stuff, but if I were to witness any instances of bullying, i.e physical bullying, the matter would be dealt with on the spot, with that student severely reprimanded and marched to the principal preferably on the spot.

Again - that would be bullying the child who had not learned how to behave properly, instead of teaching him/her how to do so.

Floppybits

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But school-bullies (sic) are children too. Often they are acting out of having ****ty background themselves, and not having been taught how to treat people well. They are being bullied by parents, neighbours or older siblings, and they are simply acting out of what they know.

Explusion is really just bullying them: using power to systematically exclude them.

The only way to break the cycle is to teach them to behave better - and convince them that doing so it worthwhile. This ain't easy. But it's the only realistic option.

Often when a school appears to be doing "nothing" - it's because confidentiality means they cannot share with your details about the perpetrator's difficult home / family life, and what the school is doing to help.





So he bullied you - and you physically bullied him back. You were a bully too.





Again - that would be bullying the child who had not learned how to behave properly, instead of teaching him/her how to do so.

What a load of codswallop. The poor bully this, the poor bully that, what about the person whose life the bully has made a misery. Are they suppose to just say ah its ok then.

Until a bully is stood up to or exposed they wont stop. They are cowards and pick on the weakest.

Athena Wooden Succotash

Athena Wooden Succotash wrote: »

How many times do we have to this ,I cannot understand how/why how their parents go to work everyday knowing their kid is being tormented and as if they are powerless to do anything.

"oh well we spoke to the principal and they are keeping an eye on it and they moved desk"

If we have learned anything, it's that schools will never accept or admit to incidents of bullying and will try to blame the kid being bulled i.e. their shy, mild mannered, socially awkward, they need CBT.

If I had kids and they were being bullied, I would just pull them out of school and send them to another one, teach them at home or do something/anything but what I wouldn't do is march them off to be mentally and physical tormented everyday in a school that they are miserable in.

I agree 100 percent with you (was just discussing this last night with a friend).


My kids are in college now, but I have a friend whose child was bullied all through primary and through secondary school. Now hes in college and really has very poor social skills and zero confidence.


So, yes, even if i had to send my child to an inconvenient school, I would have taken them out straight away and put them in another school.


For all the nay sayers on commenting to OP, re kids need to toughen up etc. Sorry but thats rubbish. Your kids get one childhood. Just one.

Dravokivich

Zorya wrote: »

There is not a requirement for children to attend a school. Article 42 of the Irish Constitution provides for this.



Anyone in Ireland can, under this constitutional right, educate their own children.

As my children were horrifically bullied in a very rural school, and the bullying could not be ameliorated in spite of great effort, and there were no other schools available, I home-schooled them as per our constitutional right.
Years later the school principle apologised to me for the school's abject failure to handle the bullying. It was decent of them, but fat lot of good it would have done them if I had not responded. The children enjoyed the experience and have excelled academically, and it was a really good fun for us all. I do not, however, advise it generally unless people are prepared to have patience and commit to significant work.

Are you missing something? The child has a right to the education. Most parents do not have the means to home school. Without the means to do so, they must attend a school.