Unauthorised target shooting

naturalslate

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Cass

naturalslate wrote: »

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland is a criminal offense?

Yes.

What is the legal penalty?

Writ to cease in the best case scenario, or worse case is a fine and/or prison time.

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense?

Yes.

What is the legal penalty?

Same as above.

They are the same offense. However the owner of the land would have to be shown to have given permission and be partaking in the target shooting to actually be in trouble otherwise they can claim ignorance of the activities of those he [land owner] gave permission to.

dodderangler

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

Writ to cease in the best case scenario, or worse case is a fine and/or prison time.

Yes.

Same as above.

They are the same offense. However the owner of the land would have to be shown to have given permission and be partaking in the target shooting to actually be in trouble otherwise they can claim ignorance of the activities of those he [land owner] gave permission to.

Not sure I read that correctly. Or just don’t understand.
But does that mean to sight in a rifle you need to go to a range to sight it in?

Cass

Yup.

We've covered this ad nauseam and it always raises a good bit of debate, but the end result is shooting at a target is target shooting and all target shooting relating to pistols and rifles must be done in an authorised range.

The Minister even said after the legislation that he did not intend to made zeroing a rifle outside of a range an offence, but he never amended the legislation to reflect this.

That being said if it's one or even two lads, checking zero via firing a couple of shots each then no Garda would do you, and if some bad bastard tried it's most likely a judge would throw out the case.

DO NOT take that as carte blanche to go shooting, its my opinion and has no legal basis.

However if its a dozen lads firing hundreds of round, with multiple firearms well then you're chance of explaining it away as zeroing takes a nose dive.

Grizzly 45

To be pendantic;
Dept of Justice authorised range.

Cass

Erm, nope. Garda Authorised range.

hedzball

I was once told by a guard you need to zero a rifle on live game only.

True story.

'Hdz

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Erm, nope. Garda Authorised range.

To be really pendantic...You nneed DOJ range authorisation,Garda inspection and paperwork,County council planning permission.

tac foley

hedzball wrote: »

I was once told by a guard you need to zero a rifle on live game only.

True story.

'Hdz

The story may well be true, but the contents are 100% BS. Are you suggesting that shooting a rifle you've never shot before, with no idea of where it is going when you press the trigger, is the right thing to use on a living creature? My first sentence comment stands - the Garda is a complete buffoon.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

To be really pendantic...You nneed DOJ range authorisation,Garda inspection and paperwork,County council planning permission.

This is probably silly to debate but i cannot stop.

The only form you fill in to apply for range authorisation is the one from An Gardaí. You apply to them, they inspect the range, you pay the fee to them, and they grant the authorisation. DoJ have no input, unless AGS involve them somehow in the process, but if they do it's without the applicants input.

An application for an authorisation for a rifle or pistol
club or shooting range shall be made to the Commissioner, who has delegated his functions to the superintendent of the district where the club or range is located. The application shall be made on the prescribed form FRPC 1 by an authorised officer of the club or the owner or operator of the shooting range, and shall be accompanied by the prescribed fee of €1 ,000. Authorisations granted under this section shall remain in force for 5 years unless revoked

As for planning permission, that is a completely separate issue to authorisation as the county council cannot grant authorisation for the range only permission to build it or buildings on the range.

cavan shooter

Page 24 of the commissioners guidelines

A target shooter tests the zero of a firearm before commencing shooting. A hunter would
normally zero a firearm before commencing a stalk. Where possible, an authorised
shooting range would be the safest location to carry out a zeroing test. Where this is not
possible, it has been the practice to test zero a firearm in an outdoor location. It is vitally
important that any such location is a safe distance from occupied buildings and does not
pose a risk to the safety of members of the public.
When engaged in zeroing, every person in possession of a licensed firearm shall ensure
they maintain clear sight lines from the point of shooting to the target and also that a
suitable backstop is in place to prevent any ricochet or stray shots. All firearm owners
have an obligation to ensure that the zeroing of firearms is carried out in a responsible
manner and the safety of the public is never compromised.

Zero away, but dont engage in target shooting🀔

Cass

We discussed that when the updated guidelines were issued, but, and i don't want to be buzz killington as it's good to see common sense being applied, remember that the Commissioner has said that people should make sure their firearm is properly zeroed (and i'm sure he is drawing from the UK model where it's perfectly fine to do outside of a range) but it's still technically illegal.

As said above it'd be a bad so and so that would do any lad for zeroing their rifle outside of a range, and the Commissioner sees and recognises the need to do this, but just do so with an air of caution as the Commissioner cannot alter legislation.

BryanL

A safe place to zero a rifle or even rifles is allowed under the current guidelines as above.

Wouldn't be the same as an ad hoc target shooting range, which isn't allowed.

Cass

Its not "allowed" as the legislation says it's not. What the guidelines, and remember the key word there - Guidelines, say is the Commissioner sees the need for firearms to be properly zeroed and shooters should do this in any suitable location that is completely safe.

It's also a way for the Commissioner to inform members of AGS that come across a lad, or two, zeroing their rifles to not try and bring charges for shooting outside an authorised range. IOW wasting police and court time on something that is trivial and shouldn't be illegal.

However and again i'm only saying this emphasise the point, there is a big difference between it being legal and AGS turning a blind eye to genuine zeroing.

meathstevie

tac foley wrote: »

The story may well be true, but the contents are 100% BS. Are you suggesting that shooting a rifle you've never shot before, with no idea of where it is going when you press the trigger, is the right thing to use on a living creature? My first sentence comment stands - the Garda is a complete buffoon.

Never mind missing the animal completely and your bullet going over the brow of the hill you were certain to fire into if your sights were properly set....The bullet will bury itself somewhere in the countryside if you're lucky, if you're not it could mean disaster.

BryanL

Cass wrote: »

Its not "allowed" as the legislation says it's not.

So it's illegal to discharge a firearm at an inanimate object on land where someone has permission to shoot? In all cases?

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Cass;110078213]This is probably silly to debate but i cannot stop.

DoJ have no input, unless AGS involve them somehow in the process, but if they do it's without the applicants input.

Nope! The DOJ has an input straight off in the design,and authorisation of the range .The cheif range inspector must be satisfied Re location,design and angles of potential richocets as well as minimum safe distances betwen the range and public roads and dwellings.From personal experiance of trying to set up a range down here in Limerick.Have had Mr G down three times looking at it measuring stuff,and producing some very nice hand drawn plans of all the potential angles of ricohocets.Even down to possible traffic hazards.Concern expressed that the range entry/exit was on a blind bend onto a public road.

As for planning permission, that is a completely separate issue to authorisation as the county council cannot grant authorisation for the range only permission to build it or buildings on the range.

Change of purpose of a building from agriculture, to commercial purposes,or building a new commercial premises is a PP matter that requires public consultation/input as well.We have seen a few ranges fall flat on that one.Even one planned totally underground in Co Limerick.So you do need them authorisating the planing permission as well.Without ANY of those three bodies OKing ,you have an illegal range setup.

naturalslate

naturalslate wrote: »

Is target shooting outside of a Garda authorised shooting range in Ireland a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Is allowing another person to engage in unauthorised target shooting on your land a criminal offense? What is the legal penalty?

Does anyone have a link to the penalties in the relevant legislation?

Cass

BryanL wrote: »

So it's illegal to discharge a firearm at an inanimate object on land where someone has permission to shoot? In all cases?

For the purpose of target shooting, which includes zeroing, yes.

TIs stupid, and the Commissioner has thankfully realsied this and seems to be trying to meet shooters half way by acknowledging the stupidity of it.

My only reason for harping on about it being illegal is so people don't read the above and think it's fine/legal and go shooting with a load of mates for the day (at targets, obviously).

Just use common sense and AGS will meet you half way by not hassling you. Abuse it and they can enforce the law as it stands.

Cass

naturalslate wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to the penalties in the relevant legislation?

What is your interest in this?

New user and the first post we get is "is X illegal?" and "Is Y illegal?"

Couple this thread to the half a dozen others over the last week and a more paranoid person might wonder at the subjects of those threads and the timing (after a large scale terrorist attack using guns, and the subject being raised in the Dáil.)

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Nope! The DOJ has an input straight off ................

I'll stop you there, even though the rest was really nice, because input is not authorisation. Who grants the authorisation An Gardaí or DoJ?

slipperyox

So is planning needed for a range if no buildings (even temporary) are sought?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

I'll stop you there, even though the rest was really nice, because input is not authorisation. Who grants the authorisation An Gardaí or DoJ?

BOTH...You need both authorisations from both bodies before anything happens.Thats from DOJ and AGS knowledgeable sources and experiance.:) And in the DOJ case its not input,its specification and requirements.

Grizzly 45

slipperyox wrote: »

So is planning needed for a range if no buildings (even temporary) are sought?

Yup...You are going to be building a backstop,side barriers aren't you if it is outdoors?Lucky if you have some natural feature that negates that point,but what about buildings or changing use of existing buildings? The PP can be even worse than dealing with DOJ/AGS,as you have to almost sync all three organisations to one outcome.Apprently if you even have mains power going into a porta cabin or a caravan,that classifies it as a permanent structure .

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Is there any specific reason that zeroing outside of a range has been made illegal? How long has this been the case?

extremetaz

The specific reason is the folks drafting the legislation at the time didn't know a damn thing about hunting and didn't realise there was a need for it; and it's been the case for more than a decade at this stage I think... (can't be bothered to check the date of the appropriate amendment)

Cass

Feck it, i'm bored. You win.

Cass

Clara Hissing Newsprint wrote: »

Is there any specific reason that zeroing outside of a range has been made illegal? How long has this been the case?

In a nutshell:

extremetaz wrote: »

The specific reason is the folks drafting the legislation at the time didn't know a damn thing about hunting and didn't realise there was a need for it; and it's been the case for more than a decade at this stage I think... (can't be bothered to check the date of the appropriate amendment)

It came about in 2007 i believe after the 2006 act. Cannot be sure if thats right, but about then.

To elaborate a little on the point made by extremetaz, they wanted to prohibit the setting up of a temporary range on land that could "disappear" overnight and had no regulation or oversight. They listed target shooting as being shooting at basically everything (naming cans, paper, etc) but never consulted with any of the shooting bodies before drafting the legislation.

The Minister even noted, after, that he had made a mistake in how the legislation was worded but never amended the legislation to allow for zeroing outside of a range.

The new Commissioner, being from Northern Ireland and UK, where such zeroing is permissible, has instructed An Gardaí to use common sense approach to lads that are zeroing. However, as i said above a few times, this cuts both ways and lads must not abuse this "leeway" as it's still technically illegal.

ganmo

now to throw a cat among the pigeons
if someone was caught firing at a target on ground, would they or the land owner be responsible?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Cass wrote: »

In a nutshell:

It came about in 2007 i believe after the 2006 act. Cannot be sure if thats right, but about then.

To elaborate a little on the point made by extremetaz, they wanted to prohibit the setting up of a temporary range on land that could "disappear" overnight and had no regulation or oversight. They listed target shooting as being shooting at basically everything (naming cans, paper, etc) but never consulted with any of the shooting bodies before drafting the legislation.

The Minister even noted, after, that he had made a mistake in how the legislation was worded but never amended the legislation to allow for zeroing outside of a range.

The new Commissioner, being from Northern Ireland and UK, where such zeroing is permissible, has instructed An Gardaí to use common sense approach to lads that are zeroing. However, as i said above a few times, this cuts both ways and lads must not abuse this "leeway" as it's still technically illegal.

Thanks for clearing that up. I sold my rifle back in 2008 or there about so not really in the loop when it comes to the legislation.

I have been shooting targets for a long time, the idea that this is now illegal is just mind boggling. Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR. Mad law altogether.

As for the pop up ranges, were they a major issue? I never heard of anything like that before. Even still, if somebody set up a temporary range on their land, how is that causing an issue?

tac foley

'Ranges are fairly scattered, the closest one to my house is about 1 hour. I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble of driving to a range to zero a .22LR.'

I have to give the odd chuckle when I read about the difficulties some of you find trying to locate a nearby range. Back home in Canada my local range - on the Eastern outskirts of Ottawa - is almost 200 miles away. All you have to do is get in a car, leave home, put in a CD and before it's over, you've arrived at the range........

As for not zeroing a .22LR [that seems to be almost beneath contempt to you], are you publicly stating that you'd go buy a rifle, and use it on live animals, without knowing where it actually shot to?

That, Sir, is as near as darnit criminal.