Farmers should be forced to cut their emissions

_Brian

Zirconia wrote: »

This attitude towards vegans is a huge issue - it's a generalization and another form of discrimination, like saying Muslims are all terrorists!

You probably know loads of Vegetarians and Vegans - you know them, but you don't actually realize they are Vegetarians / Vegans. Most of them do not protest or push their personal choices in other peoples faces. It's only a minority that do such things but then you go and group us all into the same category.

I'm a vegan, have been since I was a child and I don't care what other people eat meat or not. My own children are not vegan/vegetarian and I never pushed them towards my personal choices (though I explained why, but only when asked). I even cooked them dinners regularly with chicken etc., though it was an unpleasant task for me, I didn't want to restrict their diet based on what I liked vs what they liked.

At least non extremist muslims come out and denounce actions of extremists...


Perhaps we should see more of vegans condeming illegal and imorral acts by their extremist brethern.

I edited my post above to referr to extremist vegans as being the intolerant ones in society.

the_syco

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

The rainforest is disappearing to make room for crops.

Newflash; the people who grow plants are also called farmers.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well would you rather never exist or just be bred to be kept pregnant the whole time for dairy or to be slaughtered for meat?

Would you prefer never to work, or just be kept alive to work, and breed to make other humans to work as well?

Also, cows don't know any better. They live their lives, get sucked dry twice a day for their milk, and allowed to eat as much as they want.

StereoSound

Every living thing has a right to fart, not the farmers fault their cows fart themselves to sleep every night.

_Brian

StereoSound wrote: »

Every living thing has a right to fart, not the farmers fault their cows fart themselves to sleep every night.

Just from an educational perspective.

It’s methame burped up that is under consideration from an environmental perspective.

Much work on supplements in the form of seaweed extracts and biochar is being done to negate this issue.

_Brian

the_syco wrote: »

The rainforest is disappearing to make room for crops.

.

And cheap nasty untraceable beef in fairness.

The eu should have a ban on all imports of raw materials or products produced in countries where deforestation is happening. We shouldn’t be supporting this on any way but rather actively discouraging it through financial implications of product avoidance.

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

Farmers are subsidized because there is a global food shortage and to make it attractive to people they give grants. Even with that farmers struggle, for majority in Ireland its a part time gig.

I'm not sure why you would bring that up, it has very little to do with climate change, it seems to be a separate beef you have with farmers

Thelonious Monk

_Brian wrote: »

And cheap nasty untraceable beef in fairness.

The eu should have a ban on all imports of raw materials or products produced in countries where deforestation is happening. We shouldn’t be supporting this on any way but rather actively discouraging it through financial implications of product avoidance.

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

ToBeFrank123

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

_Brian

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

Indeed helped by the British stealing our timber for their ships.

Ireland wasn’t just one big forest though. Natural breaks would have existed through rife and grazing of deer etc, but as humans grew land was cleared for farming, humans wouldn’t have survived otherwise.

But we’re in a reaforestation phase as is every responsible country. We’re not chomping down pristine rainforest for cheap timber and to grow untraceable beef.

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Did we not deforest our own country for farming though? Serious question I'm not having a go.

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land

Are you anywhere near realising that you dont have a notion of what your arguing about?

Thelonious Monk

Green&Red wrote: »

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land

Are you anywhere near realising that you dont have a notion of what your arguing about?

I would have thought land being cleared for farming was one of the reason there aren't many trees in Ireland.
Poor countries are doing the same now and rich countries are shaming them for it, it just seems a bit rich, for want of a better word.

_Brian

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

Unjustified taxes based on flawed notion that farming is a problem when in fact farming isn’t.
That’s just tax for tax sake rather than evidence based decisions.

The initial report that identified beef farming as a problem included the carbon release from felling trees to clear land for farming, how is that relative to current beef production where land has been farmed and sequestering carbon for generations.

Looknto Australia, they have donenthenresearchnajd agreed that beef farming can be a net sequestration of carbon and so have put a system of supports on place to encourage suitable farming practices.

BarryD2

RobertKK wrote: »

The problem is this:
Farms need to keep getting bigger and more intense since cost of living, inputs and so on rise but the price the farmer is paid doesn't change much year to year, sometimes good, sometimes very bad.
This encourages farms to get bigger to be more efficient.

What is encouraging more and more cows and cattle in general is a system that is making family farms less and less viable.
If we want to put a cap on things, then more needs to be done to encourage and support less intensive farming while making it a viable option.
The government's agricultural plan is to increase food exports, to increase intensification and reduce overall farmer numbers because this is where it all leads to currently- less farmers but more cattle.

There are no real long term measures to support less intensive and thus less viable operations which are most likely the best for the environment.
The policies push for further intensification.

I think this is a fair summation but it's also the rub. What many perceive is that citizens at large (inc farmers) will be asked to pay higher carbon taxes to encourage them to cut back and slow down what is said to be climate change. People may well be happy to do this but if at the same time they see another sector of society increasing stocking levels and emitting more harmful gases, well they ain't going to be happy. No equity there.

So what is needed is to persuade the public both to pay higher carbon taxes and more for food stuffs. They might do this if they had some sort of guarantee that extra funds going towards farming wasn't just swallowed up as more profit to the bottom line. That actually paying more would result in Irish farmers getting a higher return and therefore cutting production. The challenge is there for the agricultural industry to prove this I guess?

BarryD2

Green&Red wrote: »

NO, its illegal to cut down trees on your farm unless they are falling down
Any form of serious deforestation would be useless as farm land?

Hold on now, you're gilding the lily a bit there!! If it was illegal to cut down trees on farms, many of my neighbours would be up in the courts! To clear a forest would require a felling licence I think but not trees in ditches and scrublands etc. Travel the countryside anywhere today and you'll come across ditches / hedgerows/ scrubland that have been cut down and grubbed out in order to enlarge fields etc.

ToBeFrank123

_Brian wrote: »

Unjustified taxes based on flawed notion that farming is a problem when in fact farming isn’t.
That’s just tax for tax sake rather than evidence based decisions.

The initial report that identified beef farming as a problem included the carbon release from felling trees to clear land for farming, how is that relative to current beef production where land has been farmed and sequestering carbon for generations.

Looknto Australia, they have donenthenresearchnajd agreed that beef farming can be a net sequestration of carbon and so have put a system of supports on place to encourage suitable farming practices.

Irish cattle produce huge amounts of methane which is far worse as a cause of emissions and global warming than other sources. I think it accounts for something like 20% or Irish emissions.

DEFTLEFTHAND

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'd be more in favour of consumers cutting back their consumption and governments imposing high taxes on beef.

As long as there is plentiful demand for beef, there will be farmers. If Irish farmers cut back production, the shortfall will be made up with imports from other countries and that will be a much bigger impact in terms of emissions.

Why is the solution to all these green problems always more tax?

Many farms are propped up the EU as it is, imposing high rates of tax on beef is only going to put further strain on the system.

Europe sinks as the foreign beef market takes over.

_Brian

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Irish cattle produce huge amounts of methane which is far worse as a cause of emissions and global warming than other sources. I think it accounts for something like 20% or Irish emissions.

If however the carbon being sequestered into soils is taken into account it would balance of not exceed that.

Australia have quantified this and Teagasc along with their counterparts in some other EU countries are working on a similar plan.

_Brian

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why is the solution to all these green problems always more tax?

Many farms are propped up the EU as it is, imposing high rates of tax on beef is only going to put further strain on the system.

Europe sinks as the foreign beef market takes over.

Tats it, beef from places like Brazil or Argentina where rainforests is being hacked down to produce it and animals have zero traceability regarding medicines.

What’s the environmental cost of that.

Plus we’d be loosing our food security and relying on imports to feed us

davidk1394

zapitastas wrote: »

You would be a lot safer eating Irish beef than chicken or fish. You would never really catch someone farming chickens that would consume their own product. Chicken and pig farming is grotesque in relation to beef where the livestock has been pasture reared

Very true. I draw pig slurry out of piggerys. Pigs probably have the most miserable existence out of all farm animals. So much so that I’m cutting back big time on the amount of pork I eat

Green&Red

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I would have thought land being cleared for farming was one of the reason there aren't many trees in Ireland.
Poor countries are doing the same now and rich countries are shaming them for it, it just seems a bit rich, for want of a better word.

You seem to think a lot of things that are unfounded.
As I said earlier we’re at a 350yr high

It’s centuries since Ireland’s deforestation

_Brian

davidk1394 wrote: »

Very true. I draw pig slurry out of piggerys. Pigs probably have the most miserable existence out of all farm animals. So much so that I’m cutting back big time on the amount of pork I eat

Don’t cut back.
Rear anfew yoursef.
Best food you’ll ever eat and they are great pets about the place too.
Hoping to get ours soon for this year.

Oasis1974

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

_Brian

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

Your Varadkar aren’t you ?

Sheep breeder

boggerman1 wrote: »

It was more than sunny for 2 weeks.the lack of rainfall burnt everything to a crisp.I'm lucky here in my place in most yrs grow grass to beat the band but even by mid July I was struggling and had to use silage I had cut in early June.the dairying side of farming has expanded but its compensated by a reduction in the suckler herd on the other side.all this dairy expansion will die away in a while.there are lads getting into milking cows that never did before.a few yrs of hard work and they will be gone again.to be a dairy farmer u have to be brought up in it.its a tough gig but after the springtime its not too bad if u can get away from it for breaks once u have a decent setup

Would you give over about the hard work in farming, sure teaching piano and music is savage hard work 7 days a week with no breaks

Sheep breeder

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

My comment on river pollution was down to every time I read about spillages and fish stocks being destroyed in rivers, it always seems to involve farmers.
I struggle, I make f*ck all. I don't go demanding more money or better systems in place for music teachers. I do it because I like it.

One of the biggest polluter of waterways are the local authorities from towns and villages into rivers and sea.

Force Carrier

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

What if they have an intolerance to nuts? They can just lie down and die in your sick, futuristic forest of death, is it?

Church on Tuesday

Noveight wrote: »

Farmer-bashing, a bright new future for AH.

It has hard acts to follow, but the dole bashing threads served us well.

_Brian

Sheep breeder wrote: »

One of the biggest polluter of waterways are the local authorities from towns and villages into rivers and sea.

The biggest polluter bar none.
Plenty of places have raw sewage being pumped into waterways and seas.

CosmicFool

Sheep breeder wrote: »

One of the biggest polluter of waterways are the local authorities from towns and villages into rivers and sea.

One example of that is Arklow. It has no sewage treatment plant and the sewage goes staright into the sea, plenty of towns and villages all over Ireland like this but nobody seems to care about that yet we have people on here giving out about the Farmers.

Markcheese

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

What?
What are you planning on feeding the cows/cattle,? And what are you planning on doing with cow manure from all these housed cattle, when you haven't got any grass land to
spread it on, (pour it into rivers and lakes?)

Makes perfect sense really..

Markcheese

_Brian wrote: »

The biggest polluter bar none.
Plenty of places have raw sewage being pumped into waterways and seas.

Yup.... Cork Harbour is now almost 50% closer to being sewage free (ish),(honestly that was a billboard add)
At least irish water(who now have responsibility for this) are working on it, theyre working on the western harbour and planning the works for the Eastern side at the moment....

Mad_maxx

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

Would mean growing more grain, no positive impact re_ carbon targets

boggerman1

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

Oh my god.non farming community in this country need to get educated on how we farmers actually do our job.and not just watching aine Lawler on that awful rubbish big week on the farm. if they were kept in all yr round ye would be complaining about the more slurry smells to try and keep tanks empty.

SEPT 23 1989

Oasis1974 wrote: »

Couldn't the cows be kept in sheds all year round and trees grown back on the grassland? They'll eat nuts and stuff I was told they do anyway. Farmers have no respect for fish aswell countless die from stuff getting into lakes and rivers. Bad lot in general those people and there supposedly the keepers of the land?

Farmers put the welfare of their animals before their own wellbeing

Oasis1974

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNATDBCxIE0

This is the process i was alluding to. Build bigger sheds for farmers with more cows. As far as cow waste maybe use it for heating is it methane gas?

boggerman1

Oasis1974 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNATDBCxIE0

This is the process i was alluding to. Build bigger sheds for farmers with more cows. As far as cow waste maybe use it for heating is it methane gas?

So on the one hand u want farmers to cut down emissions but on the other build bigger sheds to increase cow numbers.u couldn't make this **** up!

Hamsterchops

Harvest & sell the methane gas from the cows (and the farmers)

not forgetting their wives

Markcheese

Oasis1974 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNATDBCxIE0

This is the process i was alluding to. Build bigger sheds for farmers with more cows. As far as cow waste maybe use it for heating is it methane gas?

It is something that is done,almost all farmers have winter housing for their cattle, and plans on what to do with effluent,(the longer they're in the sheds, the more diesel you need to use to provide food and spread waste) again anaerobic digestion is a thing, it's probably not very carbon neutral to keep cows in all year to get a little methane, and you still have the spent digestate to deal with,
There's probably less ammonia losses from cows peeing in a field than in a shed.... (although they are working on new ways of minimising ammonia losses in sheds)

Calhoun

I don't think its farmers on their own that need to make this decision but it should be a societal plan on cutting down.

It cannot all be on the individuals at home considering a third comes from the farming sector but why its so bad is so interwoven with current societal needs they cannot be forced to do it alone.

I would also really like to look at other things like what pesticides ect can be used, as we need to protect our bees before we have no food.

Say my name

I'm working off the phone and I haven't mastered these fancy picture sharing techniques. So a saved screenshot will have to suffice.

Same soil type. But different management has resulted in one soil having considerably more saved carbon than the other.

*Spoiler. It's the black soil.

_Brian

Calhoun wrote: »

I don't think its farmers on their own that need to make this decision but it should be a societal plan on cutting down.

It cannot all be on the individuals at home considering a third comes from the farming sector but why its so bad is so interwoven with current societal needs they cannot be forced to do it alone.

I would also really like to look at other things like what pesticides ect can be used, as we need to protect our bees before we have no food.

Our current forestry scheme is disfunctional. There is an appetite out there to increase forestry but not under the current schemes. It’s allowing private forestry companies to swoop in plant inappropriately and walk away with the lions share of the direct payments.
A refocus of the scheme would bring allot of native forestry forward and that is what we need.

jmayo

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Everything

You seem to have no problem putting farmers and their families on the scrap heap

What do you do in life?

Typical ... heard a few comments by some so called wise one and has decided they will save the planet by screwing over other people.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Well that's the way the motor tax system was worked.
You can only afford an early 2008 diesel Avensis? Pay 700+ a year motor tax.
You can afford a 2009 diesel Avensis? Pay 390 a year motor tax.
Exact same engine and emissions in both.

Like a lot of things see who benefited.
Sales were down drastically due to failing economy in 2008 and SIMI have the ear of government.
What better way to encourage new cars than decreased annual motor tax.
Now how do we sell it as not just a way of getting business for SIMI.
Oh I know it is for the environment. :rolleyes:

_Brian wrote: »

Absolutely..
But only on native forestry and only for continuous canopy managment..

Not another € should be paid on stika spruce plantation, its the nuclear detanation of forestry.. dirty, dark, lifeless forestry producing cheap nasty timber.

Maybe farmers and others don't want to wait 50 years or more for return on investment ?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

are you seriously this thick?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

can someone tell me why we had to pay for cattle feed last summer? didn't farmers run out of food for cows after it was sunny for 2 weeks? does that not maybe indicate there are too many cows here?

Read above post whilst looking at mirror.

You really are a bit of an eejit with comments like the above.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe some of them. Why do we need 7 million if we export 90%?

Because it is one of our most valuable industries and gives employment to thousands throughout the country.
Oh and those jobs won't disappear due to someone offering better tax terms in Poland, USA or offering cheap slave like labour in China.

And something your type just can't grasp, we are more environmentally friendly at rearing cows than lots of other areas in the world and if we stopped the market would not disappear but look to other sources.

Would you rather that the beef came from a Brazilian ranch that was once rainforest ?
Would you rather that the beef came from a US or Canadian feedlot that was fed from maize that is never grown in rotation and hence killing the soil?

Or maybe you would rather people turned to likes of quinoa grown in former mountain habit territory ?

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So obviously I'm clueless with this stuff - but the part of Spain I go to every year is pretty much dry from about now until October or so. They seem to manage their water quite well there, canals going through farms etc.
Why isn't this an issue in far dryer places than here?

You are fooking clueless about this stuff alright.

How do you get to Spain ?
How many cows would your trip be equal to ?

How much of a drain on resources are you putting on that Spanish environment or do you not bother washing, drinking water and swimming in pools when you are over there ?

xl500

Sheep breeder wrote: »

One of the biggest polluter of waterways are the local authorities from towns and villages into rivers and sea.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715

_Brian

xl500 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/avoca-and-tolka-among-ireland-s-six-most-polluted-rivers-1.3204157?mode=amp

Raw sewage being intentionally discharged at 40 known locations in the state.

This isn’t accidental or a byproduct of busy agriculture. It’s blatant pumping of raw sewage into rivers and seas across the state.

Farmers receive hefty fines for accidentally polluting a waterway, it’s some double standard that Irish water are allowed to intentionally do it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

....

What are you doing to reduce carbon emissions? Where do your clothes come from, or any products you use for that matter. Do you drive? etc etc.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't really eat beef, or dairy any more, once in a blue moon.

You eat beef and dairy, or you don't. It's that simple.

jimgoose

You're dead right, and it would in no way be an over-reaction to start dribbling profusely all over one's keyboard while pronouncing that all farmers should have their genitals cut off and placed over the gatepost along with a notice warning the weary traveler of the grave and foul carbon-related transgressions that were transgressed in that dark place.

Nekarsulm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe some of them. Why do we need 7 million if we export 90%?

Why do we need thousands of people working in Intel, when a few hundred could keep the population in lap-tops for ever?
And don't fotget that Intel, and the computer industry in general, utilises vast quantities of clean water in their manufacturing process.

_Brian

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Why do we need thousands of people working in Intel, when a few hundred could keep the population in lap-tops for ever?
And don't fotget that Intel, and the computer industry in general, utilises vast quantities of clean water in their manufacturing process.

Oh my god you'd want to see the crap by-products being churned out there by the barrel load..

xl500

_Brian wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/avoca-and-tolka-among-ireland-s-six-most-polluted-rivers-1.3204157?mode=amp

Raw sewage being intentionally discharged at 40 known locations in the state.

This isn’t accidental or a byproduct of busy agriculture. It’s blatant pumping of raw sewage into rivers and seas across the state.

Farmers receive hefty fines for accidentally polluting a waterway, it’s some double standard that Irish water are allowed to intentionally do it.

as the old saying goes "2 Wrongs dont make a right"

Assetbacked

Carrots, spinach, potatoes, kale, turnips, cauliflower, brocolli, peas all grown well in Ireland and super healthy. An abundance of fish around us and great bread made here too.

We are absolutely spoiled and can easily be sustainable and environmentally friendly if we all focused our diets on these foods for a few days in a week. It would be incredibly healthy too. As well, we would be supporting Irish agriculture more.