Where are the conservatives in Ireland?

AndrewJRenko

Squatter wrote: »

I tried it once! Decided to save the planet so gave Trevor Sargent my no. 1 - no sooner had I done so than the bugger signed up to serve in a Bertie Ahern/Mary Harney led government!

My conclusion was that seeing as Trev had put his own self-interest ahead of saving the planet, then so could I!

So your plan is to vote for people who definitely won't be able to implement any of the policies that they propose?

corks finest

All on the FG posh boys party

VonZan

briany wrote: »

I don't think it's enough to ask why there is a dearth of conservative people in Ireland. A better question would be to ask where the conservatives are on an issue-by-issue basis.

I think a big reason why we're seeing a resurgence of the right and/or self-described conservatives throughout the western world is because there's a bit of a war going on for what I would call societal orthodoxy. Interestingly, I think this is a pushback to something capitalistic forces helped create, i.e. the rise of individualism powered by advertising, as one example, and the disparity in incomes around the world being another.

So the result is that a lot of communally-held values feel like they've been thrown up in the air, as the number of different lifestyles and life choices being deemed permissible skyrockets. The result is that some people feel lost, confused or even angered by this, especially as the Internet has allowed so many people to communicate and for at least some of those people to agree that they feel like values of the past were more definite and sensible. So this has led a lot of folk in the west to try and assert the boundaries of what is OK. In short, a backlash to what some feel has been an overly permissive society.

From the resurgence of things like neo-nationalism, to fat-shaming, to anti-feminism, to racism, and to the red-pills and all that other stuff, I think it's all spokes on the same wheel.

I think you're greatly misinterpreting the dissent on the left (against capitalism) and conflating it with the resurgence of typical conservative values, minus religion, on the right. The argument against capitalism is always generally poor and incoherent; typically referring more to regulation and tax policy than capitalism itself. I think the dissent is a reflection of how detached modern politicians are with their constituents.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Left-wing people think so, yes. Right-wing people think it's dominated by the left.

I don't think you could find a more "dominated by the centre" country than Ireland no matter how hard you tried.

The great delusion. There is no political party representing what is termed the "squeezed middle" in Ireland. None. From the highest childcare costs to the highest mortgage rates in Europe to crazy marginal tax rates being paid earlier there is nobody standing up for PAYE workers earning above €34k. The Blueshirts' contribution to "helping parents" was to introduce the ECCE grant, which - surprise, surprise - led to the childcare businesses increasing their prices at the same time to take it all. Please keep such "help".

Meanwhile, the divide between the rich and the rest of us has been rising exponentially since the 2009 crash, and has risen consistently since the 1970s. This is now very well researched by Piketty, Stiglitz, Krugman and many other leading economists. Not for the richest in society these marginal tax rates of 55% or 60%. You'll have 1000 Traveller/ "poor parasites are the worst" threads on Boards before you'd have 1 dedicated to discussion of how the wealthiest leech off us all.

I'd rather not vote for a "conservative" party which will conserve the current fiscal injustices against those of us in the above squeezed middle, thank you very much.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

The great delusion.

So, which is it? Dominated by the left, or by the right?

Wanderer78

oscarBravo wrote: »

So, which is it? Dominated by the left, or by the right?

difficult one, but imo, socially to the left, economically to the right, but of course you could argue that

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

So, which is it? Dominated by the left, or by the right?

Economically, which is my primary concern, very much dominated by the right and specifically the low-taxation demands of extraordinarily wealthy corporations and wealthy families. Inherited wealth, which is subject to low or no taxation, and capital is rewarded far more than productive work is. Some people are not getting the magnitude of that economic change in terms of how it further increases inequality. Actual productive work is not rewarded as much as we like to still think it is.

Socially, the needs of capitalism are also being facilitated by the focus on individual rights. Everybody is now a potential market, everybody must be the target of so many more consumer products than ever before in history. And every one of us, our state's laws, our employer's work policies and so much else are today hugely shaped by the demands of enormous insurance corporations. There is much more money in promoting individualism and growing consumerism at the expense of everything else.

I'm struggling to see any way "the Left", as in the working class, dominates society.

James Brown

VonZan wrote: »

I think you're greatly misinterpreting the dissent on the left (against capitalism) and conflating it with the resurgence of typical conservative values, minus religion, on the right. The argument against capitalism is always generally poor and incoherent; typically referring more to regulation and tax policy than capitalism itself. I think the dissent is a reflection of how detached modern politicians are with their constituents.

It's rarely that clear cut. How many anti capitalism parties are in Irish politics and how much support do they garner?
I think what is often tarred as left could be equally described as center, but looking for equality and fairness. Aid and tax breaks to business over social housing or excusing away large over runs on the broadband project as 'the cost of progress'. Similarities can be drawn. You've people asking why has the cost ballooned, that's not anti-broadband or anti-progress. You've Varadkar trying to paint such over runs as part progress. Fiscally conservative how are you.
Left and right differ on where they think money should be spent. If we can spend on needs and get value, I think we could all meet in the middle.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Economically, which is my primary concern, very much dominated by the right and specifically the low-taxation demands of extraordinarily wealthy corporations and wealthy families. Inherited wealth, which is subject to low or no taxation, and capital is rewarded far more than productive work is. Some people are not getting the magnitude of that economic change in terms of how it further increases inequality. Actual productive work is not rewarded as much as we like to still think it is.

Socially, the needs of capitalism are also being facilitated by the focus on individual rights. Everybody is now a potential market, everybody must be the target of so many more consumer products than ever before in history. And every one of us, our state's laws, our employer's work policies and so much else are today hugely shaped by the demands of enormous insurance corporations. There is much more money in promoting individualism and growing consumerism at the expense of everything else.

I'm struggling to see any way "the Left", as in the working class, dominates society.

With respect, that's a left-wing perspective, and in no way undermines my point.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Economically, which is my primary concern, very much dominated by the right and specifically the low-taxation demands of extraordinarily wealthy corporations and wealthy families. Inherited wealth, which is subject to low or no taxation, and capital is rewarded far more than productive work is. Some people are not getting the magnitude of that economic change in terms of how it further increases inequality. Actual productive work is not rewarded as much as we like to still think it is.

Socially, the needs of capitalism are also being facilitated by the focus on individual rights. Everybody is now a potential market, everybody must be the target of so many more consumer products than ever before in history. And every one of us, our state's laws, our employer's work policies and so much else are today hugely shaped by the demands of enormous insurance corporations. There is much more money in promoting individualism and growing consumerism at the expense of everything else.

I'm struggling to see any way "the Left", as in the working class, dominates society.

I'm not sure there is any definition which implies 'The Left' = 'Working Class'

stefanovich

Deleted User wrote: »

Economically, which is my primary concern, very much dominated by the right and specifically the low-taxation demands of extraordinarily wealthy corporations and wealthy families.

Define extraordinarily wealthy? I can tell you that a family earning 100K is paying a lot of tax.

A right wing government should be trying to lower taxes for working people.

James Brown

stefanovich wrote: »

Define extraordinarily wealthy? I can tell you that a family earning 100K is paying a lot of tax.

A right wing government should be trying to lower taxes for working people.

The right wing attitude as often said to the working poor would be for anyone feeling squeezed to go out and get a better job, but that's as cheeky as when said to the working poor. The squeezed middle centre right voter is a victim of their own making. 'We can all do well if we work hard enough'. The deck is not always stacked to allow people to do that easily.
If a right wing government should be lowering taxes for working people they should be also ensuring working people dont need rely on state aid to get from month to month.

christy c

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The right wing attitude as often said to the working poor would be for anyone feeling squeezed to go out and get a better job, but that's as cheeky as when said to the working poor.

The poster you replied to mentioned paying a lot of tax, nothing about struggling. In that case, as I'm sure you will agree it would be incredibly stupid to tell them to get a better job rather than cheeky.

Paying too much tax? Solution, pay even more tax

micosoft

Deleted User wrote: »

Economically, which is my primary concern, very much dominated by the right and specifically the low-taxation demands of extraordinarily wealthy corporations and wealthy families. Inherited wealth, which is subject to low or no taxation, and capital is rewarded far more than productive work is. Some people are not getting the magnitude of that economic change in terms of how it further increases inequality. Actual productive work is not rewarded as much as we like to still think it is.

Socially, the needs of capitalism are also being facilitated by the focus on individual rights. Everybody is now a potential market, everybody must be the target of so many more consumer products than ever before in history. And every one of us, our state's laws, our employer's work policies and so much else are today hugely shaped by the demands of enormous insurance corporations. There is much more money in promoting individualism and growing consumerism at the expense of everything else.

I'm struggling to see any way "the Left", as in the working class, dominates society.

And yet we have the highest redistribution of income in the world i.e. taking money from the rich and giving to the poor through the taxation system.

As Oscarbravo indicated... if both the left and the right are saying we are too right wing or left wing respectively then we must be in the middle. Both those hyberbolic views actually evidence the fact that we are centrist.

James Brown

micosoft wrote: »

And yet we have the highest redistribution of income in the world i.e. taking money from the rich and giving to the poor through the taxation system.

As Oscarbravo indicated... if both the left and the right are saying we are too right wing or left wing respectively then we must be in the middle. Both those hyberbolic views actually evidence the fact that we are centrist.

It's about where tax monies are spent surely? Taking in taxes would only be as liberal or left in regards of where the money is spent?
IMO, any payments to the working poor or others availing of state aid keep that demographic functioning, (at a loss to the tax payer) so money can be spent on supporting/contracts/aid for business, (sometimes ballooning costs which Vardakar says is the cost of progress).

Belfast

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders, a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby, rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

I do not think there are any that tick all those boxes.
maybe Christian Solidarity Party for some of the boxes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Solidarity_Party

As regards "parents are the main educators of children" this is already in the Irish constitution.

4.3.2. Article 42 of the Constitution

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State. http://irishnationalschoolstrust.org/the-clontarf-report/4-3-2-article-42-of-the-constitution/

Anti immigration?
I think that would be an odd one for Ireland given how many Irish people are in other countries both legally and illegally.
There are probably more people living outside of Ireland who qualify for an Irish passport that are living in Ireland.
Might be one of the reasons Irish citizens aboard do not get to vote in Irish elections.

Belfast

Blueshoe wrote: »

Ok so.
Ireland is generally a liberal country. We recently voted to allow same sex marriage for example.
Why are we happy to allow Muslims to live here? A religion which is certainly not "liberal" , is against homosexuality , women's rights and has extreme elements which have led to Isis and terrorist attacks around the world.
They do not assimilate to our culture and never will. This is seen all around Europe.

Why are we inviting them here? It goes against our progressive values.
Why is it fair game to have a pop at the Catholic church but not Islam?

You could say similar things about the Roman Catholic Church.

"A religion which is certainly not "liberal" , is against homosexuality , women's rights and has extreme elements which have led to paramilitary and terrorist attacks around the world. "

Why is Islam not as criticised as the catholic church in Ireland?
They are not here long enough or in big enough numbers for most people to have a problem with them in Ireland.
The Roman Catholic church is here a very long time and in big numbers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Belfast wrote: »

You could say similar things about the Roman Catholic Church.

"A religion which is certainly not "liberal" , is against homosexuality , women's rights and has extreme elements which have led to paramilitary and terrorist attacks around the world. "

Why is Islam not as criticised as the catholic church in Ireland?
They are not here long enough or in big enough numbers for most people to have a problem with them in Ireland.
The Roman Catholic church is here a very long time and in big numbers.

Because it doesn't have the same history as the Catholic Church in Ireland.

People also have the rather annoying inability to tell the difference between moderate and extremist when talking about religion - either religion.

I'd argue most "conservatives" are actually liberals that just hold conservative opinions with regard to immigratrion (and possibly crime) - most of them wouild be liberal when it comes to social topics such as same-sex-marriage and abortion.

Belfast

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because it doesn't have the same history as the Catholic Church in Ireland.

People also have the rather annoying inability to tell the difference between moderate and extremist when talking about religion - either religion.

I'd argue most "conservatives" are actually liberals that just hold conservative opinions with regard to immigratrion (and possibly crime) - most of them wouild be liberal when it comes to social topics such as same-sex-marriage and abortion.

indeed
the Irish tend to be "a la carte conservatives"

ancapailldorcha

Posts deleted. Please do not derail the thread. The topic is Irish conservatism. No more one-liners please.

James Brown

Belfast wrote: »

indeed
the Irish tend to be "a la carte conservatives"

You have to differentiate between religious belief, following those rules and social/political choices.

You might vote for same sex civil rights and be 'religious' or you might choose to vote against it based on your religion or social/political choices.
Religion sets rules, politics is a choice for most not rared in a [insert party] family, then it's a kind of religion I suppose.
A good example of the skewed mix would be many right wingers feigning Christianity while looking to close borders and cut minimum wage, monies to the poor etc. and contrast that to the traditionally non religious socialist leaners looking for fairness and equality.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Belfast wrote: »

indeed
the Irish tend to be "a la carte conservatives"

I've never been a fan of "a la carte" anything - it implies that you should let someone else establish your view point on everything without any personal thought whatsoever.

Seriously - what the **** is the point of living for and dying for freedom and to live in a free country if someone then goes and hands over their freedom of though to either a religion or a political party?

Thrashssacre

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

L1011

Good video editing is more of a sign of funding than support. The National Party is unlikely to exceed Renuas peak polling figures ever - and Renua will never return there either.

Thrashssacre

L1011 wrote: »

Good video editing is more of a sign of funding than support. The National Party is unlikely to exceed Renuas peak polling figures ever - and Renua will never return there either.

Not particularly just having a couple of people onboard who are tech savvy I mean there’s plenty of YouTube content creators who are fairly good at editing, and I mean I don’t know you may be right but renua made a lot of mistakes and came from a split in a party which wasn’t exactly liked to begin with. If recent trends in Europe teach us anything is that theres a market for this thing, if a party can keep up a reasonable enough image and not make a fool of themselves in the media it can be tapped into.

Anesthetize

pablojml wrote: »

I'm not very familiar with the political parties of Ireland, and would like to ask where or which are the conservative parties in Ireland, not the fake ones, I mean the real conservatives who are for core family values, there are only two genders, a family is a man a woman and children, homosexuality is not a normal lifestyle and can be overcome (not hating it but not promoting it), safe borders, controlled immigration and not massive influx of ilegal immigration, parents are the main educators of children not schools, abortion means killing a baby, rights come from God and not men, not being driven by emotios but by logic, etc etc. Are they extinct? I am finding it really hard to find a political party with such great values. Are there any groups that anyone can join? Regards to all.

I feel perfectly ok now about being liberal-leaning.

Thanks

James Brown

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

I don't think there is. You may have some opportunists like Casey but I can't see a party gaining traction. We had a Nazi party at one point, (not FG/blueshirts). I recall seeing the occasional poster on the odd lamppost but thankfully nothing came of it. I forget what they were called but they used the swastika. I forget which minority was invading Ireland at the time. Maybe the Turks? I recall a Lennihan shouting the infamous 'kebab' line.

An honest and fair center right, (or left for that matter) would do well.

Eric Cartman

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't think there is. You may have some opportunists like Casey but I can't see a party gaining traction. We had a Nazi party at one point, (not FG/blueshirts). I recall seeing the occasional poster on the odd lamppost but thankfully nothing came of it. I forget what they were called but they used the swastika. I forget which minority was invading Ireland at the time. Maybe the Turks? I recall a Lennihan shouting the infamous 'kebab' line.

An honest and fair center right, (or left for that matter) would do well.

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I think a PD’s/UKIP style party with a strong whip system telling candidates to shut their mouth on social issues like abortion and SSM would do well, its the downfall of most of these.

Theres definitely space for a party thats tough on crime and immigration with a lower taxes and lower spending but completely avoids iona dogma or having an opinion on abortion. Careful candidate selection and filtering of membership to keep out the likes of the sherlock family and a full SIPO registration and clear donor rules needed.

It would be tough to pull off. It's a tight list if you're avoiding the very groupings breed these people. IMO anyone like that is usually equal opportunities, immigrants bad, women know your place, poor all pretending or lazy.

Loafing Oaf

Thrashssacre wrote: »

There is a gap in the Irish political scene for a party slightly further along the right wing spectrum to renua. If you look at the rest of Europe far right party’s tend to get around 10% of the vote or more in cases where the parties are a bit more established an politically savvy like in Italy. so to think that base just doesn’t exist in Ireland would be fairly foolish. I think eventually the national party may even fill that gap if they gain more members who are willing to be a voice for the party apart from Justin Barratt. Their stuff on YouTube is well edited and comes across very clean. Both the national party and irexit party seem to be doing a lot better online in the last 2 months or so but that may not be much of an indication of support as the numbers of subscribers aren’t exactly huge. There was a video a while back that got 150k views on one of their channels but it has since been removed, but clearly they are gaining some ground on there.

People have been talking about this supposed gap for decades, certainly since the second divorce referendum, and numerous efforts have been made to occupy it, so much so that two have gone under the same name - The National Party. However, as someone on politics.ie once put it, none have even threatened mediocrity. I fail to see why when such parties were unable to make any headway back in the 1990s, when a sizeable chunk of the population did share their views, they should do so now, or in five years or however you conceive of 'eventually'.