Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

That's easy, they fart less while they work.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

Think this might be the report.

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/srccl/

Well that's a fairly underwhelming read, very little mention of meat production in it at all.

emaherx

This bit is fairly interesting though.

There is robust evidence and medium agreement that whilst forest area expansion increases ecosystem carbon storage, the magnitude of the increased stock depends on the type and length of former land-use, forest type planted, and climatic regions (Bárcena et al. 2014; Poeplau et al. 2011; Shi et al. 2013; Li et al. 2012)(see Section 4.3). While, reforestation of former croplands increases net ecosystem carbon storage (Bernal et al. 2018; Lamb 2018), afforestation on native grassland results in reduction of soil carbon stocks, which can reduce or negate the net carbon benefits which are dominated by increases in biomass, dead wood and litter carbon pools (Veldman et al. 2015, 2017).

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

Well that's a fairly underwhelming read, very little mention of meat production in it at all.

Yeah the Irish Times reporter on this story seems somewhat confused and conflicted by the report in question. A bit of creative licence I'd suspect...

Here's the short title from two of his recent articles on this report:

Report proposes a major shift towards vegetarian and vegan diets

- @ 11.50 am today. (Thats the one listed above btw)

UN report stops short of calling on all to embrace vegan or vegetarianism

- @ 17.56 pm today.

In this article he quotes Debra Roberts, co-chair of the IPCC Working Group II.

“Balanced diets featuring plant-based foods, such as coarse grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables, and animal-sourced food produced sustainably in low greenhouse gas emission systems, present major opportunities for adaptation to and limiting climate change,” she said.

A normal balanced diet in other words ...

https://www.irishtimes.com/profile/kevin-o-sullivan-7.1837420

It reminds me of the hotel in Donegal a few years back which was on TripAdvisor. One review read "The best of hotels". The second read "The worst of hotels...

You couldn't blame punters being somewhat confused tbh

It was a bit of ****ehole from local accounts .

ILoveYourVibes

Meat eaters and Vegans will have a war to end all wars someday that will kill many animals.

wakka12

emaherx wrote: »

Emmm.... Plenty do. It's a big industry to be fair.

What 'industry' are vegans profiting from by promoting it?

Buford T. Justice XIX

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Meat eaters and Vegans will have a war to end all wars someday that will kill many animals.

I read that as squirrels being killed first and was wondering what everyone had against squirrels:D

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Want to make a real difference? Ditch the car and transport. Give up flying away for your holidays. Empty your oil tank and turn off the central heating and stop buying and using all forms of plastics and fossil fuell derived products.

Then you will certainly be doing something for the children of the future ...

And cut down on meat consumption in exchange for more sustainable foods, right? Funny how you forgot to include that on your list. Lol.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And cut down on meat consumption in exchange for more sustainable foods, right? Funny how you forgot to include that on your list. Lol.

What foods that grow in Ireland are more sustainable than beef?

emaherx

wakka12 wrote: »

What 'industry' are vegans profiting from by promoting it?

Vegans in general or plenty of vegans like I said?

There are multi billion euro industries producing vegan products, then there are books, websites, YouTubers etc. If there is not plenty of vegans making money then that would be very ironic and a bit sad.

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

What foods that grow in Ireland are more sustainable than beef?

Any that don't require importing 5 Million Tonnes of feed from China/India/South America (including 50% GMO) while pretending that the cattle are only grass fed

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

Any that don't require importing 5 Million Tonnes of feed from China/India/South America (including 50% GMO) while pretending that the cattle are only grass fed

Well if you are just going to make figures up?
When was 5 million tonnes of cattle feed ever imported?

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

Well if you are just going to make figures up?
When was 5 million tonnes of cattle feed ever imported?

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-05-09/40/

emaherx

Last year 4 million tonnes of animal feed was imported, the most ever and due to extreme weather conditions, ( which also severely effected our vegetable and tillage crops).
That animal feed was not just cattle feed but was fed to all animals including those houses entirely indoors that eat exclusively the type of feed that was imported.

I don't believe we need to import any cattle feed to produce top quality beef here but some farms use lots of it to finish cattle quicker other farms use barely any at all.

Edit: even if 5 million tonnes, it wasn't 5 million tonnes for beef cattle and your link even says that. 5 million tonnes by the way would feed the national heard of cattle for only a month.

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

Last year 4 million tonnes of animal feed was imported, the most ever and due to the uncontrolled expansion of the national herd, ( which also severely effected our vegetable and tillage crops).
That animal feed was not just cattle feed but was fed to all animals including those houses entirely indoors that eat exclusively the type of feed that was imported.

I don't believe we need to import any cattle feed to produce top quality beef here but some farms use lots of it to finish cattle quicker other farms use barely any at all.

Edit: even if 5 million tonnes, it wasn't 5 million tonnes for beef cattle and your link even says that.

Fixed that for you...

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

Fixed that for you...

Oh, so we didn't have a long winter followed by a long drought. And it didn't severely effect all growth of all food in Ireland?

Sure, keep making stuff up.

What is this uncontrolled expansion? We had 7.2 million cattle in 1974 and 6.9 million now with fluctuations in between.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-syi/statisticalyearbookofireland2015/agriculture/cropslivestock/

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

Oh, so we didn't have a long winter followed by a long drought. And it didn't severely effect all growth of all food in Ireland?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-syi/statisticalyearbookofireland2015/agriculture/cropslivestock/

Pretty good description of the effects of Climate Change right there - part of the negative feedback loop of Beef and Dairy intensification.

Remember - attack the post, not the poster (which is what you do when you falsely and continuously accuse them of making stuff up)

Thelonious Monk

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fodder-crisis-proves-we-have-too-many-cows-1.3452925

Fodder crisis proves we have too many cows. Didnt the tax payer have to pay for imported feed last summer so farmers could make food to export?

Anyway the farmers on this thread will never admit there are too many cattle. The good news is that more and more people are coming around to not eating meat or cutting down. So hopefully we see a shift in the next 10 years or so.

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

Pretty good description of the effects of Climate Change right there - part of the negative feedback loop of Beef and Dairy intensification.

Remember - attack the post, not the poster (which is what you do when you falsely and continuously accuse them of making stuff up)

Claiming 5 million tonnes of feed was imported to feed cattle was untrue.

Uncontrolled expansion also false. 7.2 million cattle in 1974 7.5 million in 1997, 6.9 million 2019.

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

What is this uncontrolled expansion? We had 7.2 million cattle in 1974 and 6.9 million now with fluctuations in between.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-syi/statisticalyearbookofireland2015/agriculture/cropslivestock/

That link you provided is 5 years out of date - here's some current data: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/national-cattle-count-reaches-18-year-high-808615.html, https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/want-to-know-how-many-dairy-cows-are-in-your-county/

henryporter

emaherx wrote: »

Claiming 5 million tonnes of feed was imported to feed cattle was untrue.

Uncontrolled expansion also false. 7.2 million cattle in 1974 7.5 million in 1997, 6.9 million 2019.

See my last post - you are conflating five year old data with current data to support your falsehood

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

That link you provided is 5 years out of date - here's some current data: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/national-cattle-count-reaches-18-year-high-808615.html, https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/want-to-know-how-many-dairy-cows-are-in-your-county/

5 years out of date? Did 1974 and 1997 suddenly change their figures?

henryporter

Sorry - I thought I was having an intelligent conversation. Let's break it down for you...

The link you provided has data up to 2014 - 6.9 million cattle in 2014. Roll forward 5 years (that's where I get the 5 years out of date, this being the difference between now and 2014), and taking into account the abolition of Milk Quotas in 2015, there has been a steady increase in the size of national herd in the intervening period.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

What foods that grow in Ireland are more sustainable than beef?

Why does it have to be grown in Ireland? Couldn't it be imported and still be more sustainable than beef?

Fish is one answer. Vegetables is another answer.

But why did you limit the question to grown In Ireland?

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

What foods that grow in Ireland are more sustainable than beef?

No point arguing with the deliberate level of ignorance that ignores that Irish agriculture is about as sustainable as it gets tbh. There was one comment a while ago trying to argue that importing some fake dairy product from America would help stop global warming. You couldn't make it up tbh. Obviously never heard of food miles or the increased carbon footprint of importing cheap food from areas with few if any environmental or ethical standards.

Edit: On second thoughts maybe some could ....

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

No point arguing with the deliberate level of ignorance that ignores that Irish agriculture is about as sustainable as it gets tbh. There was one comment a while ago trying to arguing that importing some fake dairy product from America would help stop global warming. You could make it up tbh.

Edit: On second thoughts maybe some could ....

Isn't fish a good answer to the question?

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fodder-crisis-proves-we-have-too-many-cows-1.3452925 Fodder crisis proves we have too many cows. Didnt the tax payer have to pay for imported feed last summer so farmers could make food to export?Anyway the farmers on this thread will never admit there are too many cattle. The good news is that more and more people are coming around to not eating meat or cutting down. So hopefully we see a shift in the next 10 years or so.

Ah the IT - the official agricultural tome of knowledge :rolleyes: So what you are saying is that an usual weather event -somehow means there are too many cattle Really? and you are an expert in agriculture I take it?

You do know that the drought which led to a shortage of fodder also effected arable and horticultural producers yes? Crops of potatoes and wheat also were also severely affected. - Do we have too many of those? Should we start shouting at Potato farmers that they are doing it wrong?

The way it works is that that cattle graze grass outdoors in the summer, fodder is harvested for the winter when cattle are kept indoors to conserve soil health and to keep animals healthy. Farmers do not produce unlimited amounts of fodder JUST in case there might be a drought. They produce what is required plus some surplus. So yes there will be an occasional year where there might be a shortage regardless whether there are more or less livestock.

Anyway the few extremist plant advocates will never admit they are pushing veganism (and that includes the ones claiming they are not vegan or whatever - but their mammy / sibling / cousin twice removed is) and all because they think it's trendy or something.

The good news is that more and more people are coming around to realising most of what is being pushed is all a load of bolloxks. So hopefully we see an end to most of this type of ****e in the next 10 years or at least until the next wave of fashionable lunacy arrives - whatever that might be.

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

Sorry - I thought I was having an intelligent conversation. Let's break it down for you...

The link you provided has data up to 2014 - 6.9 million cattle in 2014. Roll forward 5 years (that's where I get the 5 years out of date, this being the difference between now and 2014), and taking into account the abolition of Milk Quotas in 2015, there has been a steady increase in the size of national herd in the intervening period.

Oh, sorry you are correct, current is 7.2.... so we have reached 1974 levels still below 1997 so like I said some fluctuations but hardly uncontrolled growth.

Should be noted there is a decrease in beef only cattle with the expansion of the dairy herd.

gozunda

henryporter wrote: »

Sorry - I thought I was having an intelligent conversation. Let's break it down for you...

The link you provided has data up to 2014 - 6.9 million cattle in 2014. Roll forward 5 years (that's where I get the 5 years out of date, this being the difference between now and 2014), and taking into account the abolition of Milk Quotas in 2015, there has been a steady increase in the size of national herd in the intervening period.

henryporter wrote: »

Pretty good description of the effects of Climate Change right there - part of the negative feedback loop of Beef and Dairy intensification.
Remember - attack the post, not the poster ...

Incredible where some think their own **** doesn't stink and believe that kinda thing should only apply to other posters but not themselves...

:rolleyes:

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

Oh, sorry you are correct, current is 7.2.... so we have reached 1974 levels still below 1997 so like I said some fluctuations but hardly uncontrolled growth.

Should be noted there is a decrease in beef only cattle with the expansion of the dairy herd.

Dairy has a bigger footprint than beef apparently.

emaherx

gozunda wrote: »

Incredible where some think their own **** doesn't stink and believe that kinda thing should only apply to other posters but not themselves...

:rolleyes:

Like getting offended for being accused of making stuff up but then commenting on my falsehoods? Or "fixing" what I said in a previous post?

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Dairy has a bigger footprint than beef apparently.

I agree completely on this, but the current push away from extensive beef is pushing towards less farmers farming more intensive dairy herds.

gozunda

henryporter wrote: »

Sorry - I thought I was having an intelligent conversation. Let's break it down for you...The link you provided has data up to 2014 - 6.9 million cattle in 2014. Roll forward 5 years (that's where I get the 5 years out of date, this being the difference between now and 2014), and taking into account the abolition of Milk Quotas in 2015, there has been a steady increase in the size of national herd in the intervening period.

Wrong or at least don't attempt to pick your own interval in order to try and come up with an answer to a different question

Emaherx was clearly detailing changes in figures over several decades and not cherry picking data for a period of 5 years as per your comment.


From the 2015 CSO link detailed above

The total number of cattle in the State increased gradually from 2.8 million in 1854 to 6.9 million in 1973, when Ireland joined the EEC (EU). Cattle numbers have ranged between 6.5 million and 7.6 million head since 1973.

From the last offical CSO livestock survey completed December 2018 - there were 6.5 million cattle (of all types) accounted for in the country.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/agriculture/livestocksurveydecember/

So yes indeed we are down from a peak figure of 7.6 million according to the official figures. Hell there are even less cattle in the counry now than in 1973!

Edit: out of curiosity I took a look at the CSO figures for the human population in Ireland. This has increased by over a third since Ireland joined the EU in 1973.

In the same period - cattle numbers have gone up and down but no evidence of permanent expansion allowing for periodic variations.The figures certainly do not show "uncontrolled expansion"*(sic) as detailed by some.

*Fixed at HPs express request ....

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why does it have to be grown in Ireland? Couldn't it be imported and still be more sustainable than beef?

Fish is one answer. Vegetables is another answer.

But why did you limit the question to grown In Ireland?

How, is it sustainable to import all of our food, certainly wouldn't be good for food security or carbon footprint.

Fish can be over fished and fish farms don't get a good rep for carbon footprint either, vegetables did extremely badly in this country last year. Please explain how either is more sustainable than beef.

Don't disagree with the fact that we should eat more fresh sea fish on this island though.

weisses

emaherx wrote: »

How, is it sustainable to import all of our food, certainly wouldn't be good for food security or carbon footprint.

I agree ... Fresh beans in Lidl are from Kenia

We should be able to grow them here

Hungary .. land of the paprika ...in shops they sell them imported from the Netherlands.

The system is ****ed ... farmers cannot survive without subsidies

Thelonious Monk

weisses wrote: »

I agree ... Fresh beans in Lidl are from Kenia

We should be able to grow them here

Hungary .. land of the paprika ...in shops they sell them imported from the Netherlands.

The system is ****ed ... farmers cannot survive without subsidies

In fairness, we need Holland and Spain to provide certain vegetables. Holland are experts at year round growing and Spain is the greenhouse of Europe. The EU is a massive trading block and food should be traded too. As for avocadoes from Peru and green beans from Kenya, maybe that's not necessary.

weisses

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness, we need Holland and Spain to provide certain vegetables. Holland are experts at year round growing and Spain is the greenhouse of Europe. The EU is a massive trading block and food should be traded too. As for avocadoes from Peru and green beans from Kenya, maybe that's not necessary.

My point is that whatever you can grow in Holland you can grow here ......

I mean the meat and dairy industry are big contributors in messing up the climate ...that is a fact, I think it is not helping when making the switch to a more healthier plant based diet all the good stuff is flown in from all over Europe and the world

Thelonious Monk

weisses wrote: »

My point is that whatever you can grow in Holland you can grow here ......

I mean the meat and dairy industry are big contributors in messing up the climate ...that is a fact, I think it is not helping when making the switch to a more healthier plant based diet all the good stuff is flown in from all over Europe and the world

Yes but trade in the EU is essential to keep us all ticking along. We should be diversifying what we use our land for though yes.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

How, is it sustainable to import all of our food, certainly wouldn't be good for food security or carbon footprint.

Fish can be over fished and fish farms don't get a good rep for carbon footprint either, vegetables did extremely badly in this country last year. Please explain how either is more sustainable than beef.

Don't disagree with the fact that we should eat more fresh sea fish on this island though.

Why did you jump to importing all our food? In 2 posts you have asked loaded questions. The first one you tried to limit the question to food farmed only in Ireland, then you ask why i think we should import all our food.

So instead of asking loaded questions, would you just answer the question i asked?

So a quick recap of the conversation. I asked why Gozunda didn't mention cutting down on meat in their list of things that would be good for the environment. You asked what food we could eat instead and i answered "fish and vegetables".

There's no way to produce food without any carbon footprint, so its a question of what causes a greater or smaller carbon footprint, fish veg or meat. imported or grown domestically. The total carbon footprint needs to be considered. So there's no point in saying that fish or imported produce has a carbon footprint as if that rules it out as an option and ignoring the obvious question of how it compares to meat production.

silverharp

weisses wrote: »

My point is that whatever you can grow in Holland you can grow here ......

I mean the meat and dairy industry are big contributors in messing up the climate ...that is a fact, I think it is not helping when making the switch to a more healthier plant based diet all the good stuff is flown in from all over Europe and the world

that's not a fact , also will I be growing tofu plants in my back garden? Someone on a vegan diet in Ireland is eating food from at least 3 continents.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why did you jump to importing all our food? In 2 posts you have asked loaded questions. The first one you tried to limit the question to food farmed only in Ireland, then you ask why i think we should import all our food.

So instead of asking loaded questions, would you just answer the question i asked?

So a quick recap of the conversation. I asked why Gozunda didn't mention cutting down on meat in their list of things that would be good for the environment. You asked what food we could eat instead and i answered "fish and vegetables".

There's no way to produce food without any carbon footprint, so its a question of what causes a greater or smaller carbon footprint, fish veg or meat. imported or grown domestically. The total carbon footprint needs to be considered. So there's no point in saying that fish or imported produce has a carbon footprint as if that rules it out as an option and ignoring the obvious question of how it compares to meat production.

Because I asked what could be grown more sustainably in Ireland than beef and you answered with why does it have to be grown in Ireland and gave the examples fish and vegetables.

I mentioned fish and carbon footprint as fish farming is also claimed to have a massive Methane footprint.

Say my name

Dung beetle on my dairy farm.

Dung beetles use the Sun for navigation during the day and the moon for navigation at night. They lay eggs in chambers underground and fill those chambers with cow dung. The eggs hatch into larvae and the larvae consume the cow dung. The process contributes hugely to carbon sequestration in soil and helps in putting carbon deep into soil.
Helping soil health and ultimately plant growth.

This fellow was in the milking parlour before I picked him up and put him back out to pasture.
This particular species of dung beetle has been in Ireland for thousands of years.

Then on another occasion I found a hedgehog in my milking parlour. Hedgehogs feed on dung beetle larvae and worms that feed on the dung pats at night.
Leaving piles of timber in field corners provides homes for hedgehogs. All part of the ecosystem on the farm.

Swallows are part of it too and provide a valuable service at fly control. I've pipistrel bats too and they do the night shift.
All part of a holistic management system.

Buying milk and dairy creates and supports the ecosystems for these creatures.

Thelonious Monk

silverharp wrote: »

that's not a fact , also will I be growing tofu plants in my back garden? Someone on a vegan diet in Ireland is eating food from at least 3 continents.

And cattle farmers are exporting their products all over the world. And importing soy from South America to feed animals. Import/Export isn't going away in a globalised world but it's about minimising damage.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

Because I asked what could be grown more sustainably in Ireland than beef and you answered with why does it have to be grown in Ireland and gave the examples fish and vegetables.

I mentioned fish and carbon footprint as fish farming is also claimed to have a massive Methane footprint.

Right so you acknowledge that i didn't suggest importing all our food or veg - just the ones that are sustainable compared to meat produced in Ireland. It was just loaded question?

Sure fish has an environmental impact as does meat production. So its a matter of how they compare. Isn't that so? And I'm not talking about comparing the least sustainable fishing practices (which is what you mentioned for some reason) with the most sustainable meat practices. Just an honest comparison

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Right so you acknowledge that i didn't suggest importing all our food or veg - just the ones that are sustainable compared to meat produced in Ireland. It was just loaded question?

Sure fish has an environmental impact as does meat production. So its a matter of how they compare. Isn't that so? And I'm not talking about comparing the least sustainable fishing practices (which is what you mentioned for some reason) with the most sustainable meat practices. Just an honest comparison

It was one of the types of fishing I mentioned actually.

My argument is when full carbon cycle is taken into account that the foot print of extensively farmed beef is quite low. But all beef farmers always get lumped in with figures from beef farming with the highest carbon footprint. Much like the difference between fresh sea fish and fish from fish farms.

silverharp

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

And cattle farmers are exporting their products all over the world. And importing soy from South America to feed animals. Import/Export isn't going away in a globalised world but it's about minimising damage.

well if you want to minimise, vote with your wallet, don't by Lamb from New Zealand or tropical fruit and veg, or anything not grown in Europe.

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

I agree ... Fresh beans in Lidl are from Kenia
We should be able to grow them here
Hungary .. land of the paprika ...in shops they sell them imported from the Netherlands.
The system is ****ed ... farmers cannot survive without subsidies

With respect I'd disagree- the system is not ****ed imo.

Yes some vegetables can be grown in Ireland. However the climate, soils and topography of much of the country renders the cultivation of commercial quantities of many types of vegetables unviable.

Firstly field grown vegetables are seasonal. So even where we grow enough potatoes for example - we still import them to allow for early new potatoes and potatoes of different varieties.

You refer to beans from Kenya and we should grow them here. The thing is that Kenya's climate grow beans well - something which French beans (one of the main variety imported from Kenya) here do not.

Optimal conditions for growing French beans in parts of Kenya include temperatures (20-25c) and just enough rainfall (900-1200mm), ensuring smooth growth and transition to maturity.

https://www.selinawamucii.com/fresh-vegetables/kenya-french-green-beans/

French beans are a half hardy vegetable and cannot withstand frost. The plant also hates heavy clay which is one of the most abundant soil types here.

Kenya may be an ideal country to grow beans- in Ireland the conditions are ideal for growing grass and producing top class cattle. I see no issue with counties producing that which is most suitable and sustainable - simple as.

I also see suggestions we should build industrial scale polytunnels to grow fruit and vegetables.
Fair enough however that comes with a significant environmental impact, huge structural costs and increased use of pesticides and water resources. If you ever been to parts of Spain which are covered mile after mile in these structures - I'd suggest many people would think twice before committing to that type of production.

http://www.ediblegeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mar_plasticos-460.jpg

On subsidies - these are provided so that various foods may produced here and also to support smaller scale extensive production . Agriculture is certainly not the only sector which receives subsidies. Industry, roads, private employers, the arts all recieve subsidies - strange we rarely here people screaming to a similar degree about any of that.

henryporter

gozunda wrote: »

Wrong or at least don't attempt to pick your own interval in order to try and come up with an answer to a different question

Emaherx was clearly detailing changes in figures over several decades and not cherry picking data for a period of 5 years as per your comment.


From the 2015 CSO link detailed above



From the last offical CSO livestock survey completed December 2018 - there were 6.5 million cattle (of all types) accounted for in the country.

https://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/agriculture/livestocksurveydecember/

So yes indeed we are down from a peak figure of 7.6 million according to the official figures. Hell there are even less cattle in the counry now than in 1973!

Edit: out of curiosity I took a look at the CSO figures for the human population in Ireland. This has increased by over a third since Ireland joined the EU in 1973.

In the same period - cattle numbers have gone up and down but no evidence of permanent expansion allowing for periodic variations.The figures certainly do not show "uncontroled expansion"(sic) as detailed by some.

I think Emaherx was clearly trying to establish a correlation between 1973 figures and now - I simply pointed out that those figures are 5 years old and that the national herd has increased by another 500,000 cattle since that time which makes his point moot - please explain how that is wrong?

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

It was one of the types of fishing I mentioned actually.

My argument is when full carbon cycle is taken into account that the foot print of extensively farmed beef is quite low. But all beef farmers always get lumped in with figures from beef farming with the highest carbon footprint. Much like the difference between fresh sea fish and fish from fish farms.

Righty-o. So in conclusion, fish can be a good alternative to meat and if you're concerned about the environment, then reduced meat consumption in favour of sustainable fish would be a step in the right direction. Right?

And god only knows why Gozunda forgot to mention that in their list of things to help the environment. Must have slipped their mind

Thelonious Monk

silverharp wrote: »

well if you want to minimise, vote with your wallet, don't by Lamb from New Zealand or tropical fruit and veg, or anything not grown in Europe.

Yeah I try and only buy European produce. I love asparagus but it always seems to be from South America so I don't buy it. I don't eat lamb!