Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism

gozunda

henryporter wrote: »

I think Emaherx was clearly trying to establish a correlation between 1973 figures and now - I simply pointed out that those figures are 5 years old and that the national herd has increased by another 500,000 cattle since that time which makes his point moot - please explain how that is wrong?

Wrong because you claimed there has been uncontrolled expansion of cattle numbers . You even ninja edited his comment to do so. The official statistics show that bit of hyperbole is completely bogus.

emaherx

henryporter wrote: »

I think Emaherx was clearly trying to establish a correlation between 1973 figures and now - I simply pointed out that those figures are 5 years old and that the national herd has increased by another 500,000 cattle since that time which makes his point moot - please explain how that is wrong?

But the figures I used were relevant and since the data was about the 1970's and 1990's dosen't change or go out of date I don't see your point ,Gozunda filled in the missing 5 years and it showed numbers dropped between 2017 and 2018 which backs up my point that numbers have fluctuated between 1970's and now and there is no uncontrolled growth.

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Wrong because you claimed there has been uncontrolled expansion of cattle numbers. You even ninja edited his comment to do so. The official statistics show that bit of hyperbole is completely bogus.

The same research said there were 4.4m cattle in 1964. Which increased fairly rapidly to 7.2m in 1974 and has stayed at that level since then. It's not true thet there hasn't been an explosion in cattle numbers. it just wasn't as recent as TM said.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Righty-o. So in conclusion, fish can be a good alternative to meat and if you're concerned about the environment, then reduced meat consumption in favour of sustainable fish would be a step in the right direction. Right?

And god only knows why Gozunda forgot to mention that in their list of things to help the environment. Must have slipped their mind

Wrong but nice try. Not even close to what I said, but since you keep misquoting me anyway sure carry on.

Don't know why you keep asking me about Gozunda?

henryporter

gozunda wrote: »

In the same period - cattle numbers have gone up and down but no evidence of permanent expansion allowing for periodic variations.The figures certainly do not show "uncontroled expansion"(sic) as detailed by some.

One thing to fix anothers posts for them, but to deliberately misquote them in order to point out a non existent error is churlish - see https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110921336&postcount=516 for the unedited original

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

Wrong but nice try. Not even close to what I said, but since you keep misquoting me anyway sure carry on.

Don't know why you keep asking me about Gozunda?

But it is true that fish can be a good alternative to meat and if you're concerned about the environment, then reduced meat consumption in favour of sustainable fish would be a step in the right direction.

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

And cattle farmers are exporting their products all over the world. And importing soy from South America to feed animals. Import/Export isn't going away in a globalised world but it's about minimising damage.

A significant amount of Irish farm produce goes to our trading partners in Europe.

Most of the Soy bean grown in Brazil and elsewhere in South America is bought by China. The US is the single biggest producer of soy beans in the world. Other countries also grow soy where conditions allow.

It's about growing and producing what we do well with a minimum of inputs. Cattle in Ireland mainly eat grass and silage and are fed grain etc as and when required as for example during winter months when cattle must be housed. Many farms also grow animal grade feed to keep costs down.

These are the facts.

gozunda

henryporter wrote: »

One thing to fix anothers posts for them, but to deliberately misquote them in order to point out a non existent error is churlish - see https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110921336&postcount=516 for the unedited original

Oh I'm so sorry for my typo - There is no "uncontrolled expansion" of cattle numbers / the national herd. Is that better?

Christ on a bike but you'd argue with a signpost. Still with the old ad hominem to boot lol 'churlish' indeed. Jeez I havnt laughed so much in ages. Another Wum effort?

Btw dont know what your trying to prove by showing yourselfup by linking to what I quoted and where you ninja edited in "uncontrolled expansion". But hey thanks for the laugh - I needed that.

weisses

silverharp wrote: »

that's not a fact , also will I be growing tofu plants in my back garden? Someone on a vegan diet in Ireland is eating food from at least 3 continents.

it is a fact

Your Whataboutery is not changing that

Upstream

Is animal production the problem?
Or is the industrialization of all agriculture the problem?

You can buy beef that's been intensively finished on a diet including a large quantity of GMO soy from the likes of Brazil
Same for goes for dairy produce
Likewise you can buy potatoes, corn and vegetables that have been grown on artificial inputs of NP&K and sprayed with all kinds of pesticides.
And you can buy ultra-processed ready-meals that are filled with all kinds of junk.

Or you can buy beef and dairy from farms that are regeneratively managed, so they improve soil health, and actually have a net effect of sequestering more carbon than they emit.
The same for vegetables and grains, they can be regeneratively grown too, in a manner that increases soil health as well as producing food that's better for people's health.

We used to have lots of vegetable growers, the industrialisation of agriculture got rid of these, beef farmers are next in line, dairy and tillage after that.

gozunda

emaherx wrote: »

Wrong but nice try. Not even close to what I said, but since you keep misquoting me anyway sure carry on.
Don't know why you keep asking me about Gozunda?

Yeah seems a bit obsessive all right. I believe somehow the goalposts have suddenly shifted and we are no longer discussing vegans and vegetarians - but have now moved on to pescetarians for some strange reason. It's all a bit odd tbh considering you cant farm fish in a field unless you dig the entire thing up and most fish stocks in the sea are over fished anyway.

Afaik farmed fished are far from environmentally friendly either and cause huge environmental damage to coastal waters etc. Though I suppose most people sadly wouldn't have a clue about that kind of thing - bless their little cotton socks ...

never_mind

I wonder is Mariah Carey a vegan.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

With respect I'd disagree- the system is not ****ed imo.

Yes some vegetables can be grown in Ireland. However the climate, soils and topography of much of the country renders the cultivation of commercial quantities of many types of vegetables unviable.

Firstly field grown vegetables are seasonal. So even where we grow enough potatoes for example - we still import them to allow for early new potatoes and potatoes of different varieties.

You refer to beans from Kenya and we should grow them here. The thing is that Kenya's climate grow beans well - something which French beans (one of the main variety imported from Kenya) here do not.

Optimal conditions for growing French beans in parts of Kenya include temperatures (20-25c) and just enough rainfall (900-1200mm), ensuring smooth growth and transition to maturity.

https://www.selinawamucii.com/fresh-vegetables/kenya-french-green-beans/

French beans are a half hardy vegetable and cannot withstand frost. The plant also hates heavy clay which is one of the most abundant soil types here.

Kenya may be an ideal country to grow beans- in Ireland the conditions are ideal for growing grass and producing top class cattle. I see no issue with counties producing that which is most suitable and sustainable - simple as.

I also see suggestions we should build industrial scale polytunnels to grow fruit and vegetables.
Fair enough however that comes with a significant environmental impact, huge structural costs and increased use of pesticides and water resources. If you ever been to parts of Spain which are covered mile after mile in these structures - I'd suggest many people would think twice before committing to that type of production.

http://www.ediblegeography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/mar_plasticos-460.jpg

On subsidies - these are provided so that various foods may produced here and also to support smaller scale extensive production . Agriculture is certainly not the only sector which receives subsidies. Industry, roads, private employers, the arts all recieve subsidies - strange we rarely here people screaming to a similar degree about any of that.

Stop spouting the waffle that meat/dairy farming as it is now is somehow sustainable.

All the research suggest that switching to a predominantly plant/based diet is good for the earth and Humans ... win/win

If you can find one respectable paper that states the environmental impact of crop growing is larger then meat/dairy farming please post it here

Like I said ..If the Netherlands can grow it .. so can Ireland

silverharp

weisses wrote: »

it is a fact

Your Whataboutery is not changing that

The vegan diet isn't sustainable for best human health and hasn't been tested on large populations, so on that basis alone it should be off the table , secondly the focus on cow farts seems to be just a diversion away from energy production and other industries. A zombiefied vegan diet isn't for me

Seanachai

silverharp wrote: »

The vegan diet isn't sustainable for best human health and hasn't been tested on large populations, so on that basis alone it should be off the table , secondly the focus on cow farts seems to be just a diversion away from energy production and other industries. A zombiefied vegan diet isn't for me

There's a subtle element of coercion in the language used, we should be eating x, we need to stop eating y. How about we make an effort to move to low impact, sustainable locally produced food and then individuals can make up their own mind about what they want to eat or not.

What we'll probably get though is most of us having little choice but to go mostly vegetarian as animal products will become a niche market.

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Stop spouting the waffle that meat/dairy farming as it is now is somehow sustainable.All the research suggest that switching to a predominantly plant/based diet is good for the earth and Humans ... win/win. If you can find one respectable paper that states the environmental impact of crop growing is larger then meat/dairy farming please post it hereLike I said ..If the Netherlands can grow it .. so can Ireland

Really? My goodness you seem very angry. Why is that? The only thing I said about "cattle" in that comment was this:

Kenya may be an ideal country to grow beans- in Ireland the conditions are ideal for growing grass and producing top class cattle. I see no issue with counties producing that which is most suitable and sustainable - simple as.

That is fact. If you dont like those facts.Tough.

Lol. Grow it all here you say? So we can grow french beans commercially like they do in Kenya. Yeah right get you lol.

And just so we can be like the Netherlands - we are going to roof the entire county in plastic- fuk the environmental impact and the need to use huge amounts of resources, pesticides etc just so you can chew down on your bean burger or whatever. Sure thing boss.

Tbh the only waffle I see here - is that coming from a few - who appear to know absolutely nothing about agricultural production, seasonality of production etc whatsover but would like to tell everyone else what they should be doing and eating.

Some also seem to under the strange misapprehension that importing cheap food (vegetables etc),over long distances or from areas with few if any environmental or ethical standards is somehow more 'sustainable' and better than producing mainly grass fed beef and world class dairy products with strict production controls here. That said I do see areas which require significant improvements in their sectors.

However from what I can see the interpretation of the 'reseach' (sic) used is wildly inaccurate and seems to be coming from a small number of extremist plant food advocates and the vegan food industry. We even have some of the proponents of these ideas demanding proof of what they is saying is not true, but hillarilously fail to attach the same conditions to their own baseless arguments. You really couldn't make it up.

Heres an idea - start your own vegetable producing business and come back in a few years and let us know how that went for you ok?

Unearthly

silverharp wrote: »

The vegan diet isn't sustainable for best human health and hasn't been tested on large populations, so on that basis alone it should be off the table , secondly the focus on cow farts seems to be just a diversion away from energy production and other industries. A zombiefied vegan diet isn't for me

Aren't you a ketogenic advocate?

silverharp

Seanachai wrote: »

There's a subtle element of coercion in the language used, we should be eating x, we need to stop eating y. How about we make an effort to move to low impact, sustainable locally produced food and then individuals can make up their own mind about what they want to eat or not.

What we'll probably get though is most of us having little choice but to go mostly vegetarian as animal products will become a niche market.

I would be the first to embrace a return to less industrial farming methods. All beef should be grassfed 100% but likewise I don't want to see fake meat being pushed as a "healthy" and "sustainable" alternative. Its bad quality inflammatory food which fits the model of high margin low quality food beloved of companies like Nestle , Kellogs and the lads.

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah seems a bit obsessive all right. I believe somehow the goalposts have suddenly shifted and we are no longer discussing vegans and vegetarians - but have now moved on to pescetarians for some strange reason. It's all a bit odd tbh considering you cant farm fish in a field unless you dig the entire thing up and most fish stocks in the sea are over fished anyway.

Afaik farmed fished are far from environmentally friendly either and cause huge environmental damage to coastal waters etc. Though I suppose most people sadly wouldn't have a clue about that kind of thing - bless their little cotton socks ...

Ah. Happy to fill you in. You listed things that people can do if they're Concerned about the environment. I added eating less meat in exchange for more sustainable foods and later gave and example of sustainably produced fish. The fact that fish can be more sustainable than meat seems to rub that poster up the wrong way. But they haven't said why.

Since you claim to be concerned about the environment and base a lot of your arguments on environmental impact, I imagine you would advocate reducing meat in exchange for more sustainably produced fish. Is that the case?

Seanachai

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah. Happy to fill you in. You listed things that people can do if they're Concerned about the environment. I added eating less meat in exchange for more sustainable foods and later gave and example of sustainably produced fish. The fact that fish can be more sustainable than meat seems to rub that poster up the wrong way. But they haven't said why.

Since you claim to be concerned about the environment and base a lot of your arguments on environmental impact, I imagine you would advocate reducing meat in exchange for more sustainably produced fish. Is that the case?

Do you include fish farming in sustainable fisheries?

Xcellor

silverharp wrote: »

The vegan diet isn't sustainable for best human health and hasn't been tested on large populations, so on that basis alone it should be off the table , secondly the focus on cow farts seems to be just a diversion away from energy production and other industries. A zombiefied vegan diet isn't for me

How large of a population would satisfy you?

El_Duderino 09

Seanachai wrote: »

Do you include fish farming in sustainable fisheries?

Depends on the environmental impact. I've been using the term a bit loosely to cover both sustainability of the fish and overall environmental impact. So when I said sustainable I was referring to both.

Why?

silverharp

Xcellor wrote: »

How large of a population would satisfy you?

for test conditions, get some of the tech billionaires together to build a model city state Island and monitor for 3 generations , cradle to grave, no animal based products allowed, closed borders the works, guaranteed jobs and good quality of life though. if by the end of the 3rd generation nothing negative is observed then sure load up the soylent.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends on the environmental impact.

So you don't know about the environmental impact of fish farms or diminishing wild fish stocks, so you just assume it's better than beef production? Because cows bad?

Upstream

Lots of people looking for lots of different things on this thread

Farm fish in a way that's kind to the environment
Farm cattle in a way that's kind to the environment
Grow fruit and vegetables in a way that's kind to the environment - not just the least bad option
While we're at it get rid of monoculture conifer plantations
Reduce external inputs
Improve water use

Here's the Krameterhof in Austria, I think it is one of the most beautiful farms in the world, we could learn a lot from it.

We shouldn't be aiming for sustainable in agriculture by the way - we should be aiming for regenerative, farming in a way that heals the land and increases its fertility and biodiversity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P81ZLODRQo

silverharp

Upstream wrote: »

Lots of people looking for lots of different things on this thread

Farm fish in a way that's kind to the environment
Farm cattle in a way that's kind to the environment
Grow fruit and vegetables in a way that's kind to the environment - not just the least bad option
While we're at it get rid of monoculture conifer plantations
Reduce external inputs
Improve water use

Here's the Krameterhof in Austria, I think it is one of the most beautiful farms in the world, we could learn a lot from it.

We shouldn't be aiming for sustainable in agriculture by the way - we should be aiming for regenerative, farming in a way that heals the land and increases its fertility and biodiversity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P81ZLODRQo

that's the thing, the vast majority of monoculture farming depends on depleting the soil and getting rid of biodiversity. Its not a meat v plants issue in the way it seems to be framed.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

So you don't know about the environmental impact of fish farms or diminishing wild fish stocks, so you just assume it's better than beef production? Because cows bad?

No. Because there are different types of fish farms. Farmed molluscs have a different environment Impact to Farmed salmon.

Also I didn't mention beef specifically , I said meat. Why are you so defensive of beef?

Wouldn't you advocate for eating more sustainable fish and seafood, in lieu of meat?

weisses

silverharp wrote: »

The vegan diet isn't sustainable for best human health and hasn't been tested on large populations, so on that basis alone it should be off the table , secondly the focus on cow farts seems to be just a diversion away from energy production and other industries. A zombiefied vegan diet isn't for me

Stop moving the goalposts

Stick to the facts

And please ..read the research out there and stop with the uneducated waffle

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Stop moving the goalposts. Stick to the factsAnd please ..read the research out there and stop with the uneducated waffle

Theres only one load of waffle there and it's not the comment you quoted tb. And thats the thing there is fuk all facts presented except vague ideas and opinions how the usual meat is bad etc ....

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

No. Because there are different types of fish farms. Farmed molluscs have a different environment Impact to Farmed salmon.

Also I didn't mention beef specifically , I said meat. Why are you so defensive of beef?

Wouldn't you advocate for eating more sustainable fish and seafood, in lieu of meat?

Yes just like there are different types of meat farms. Even different types of production within the various sectors, like beef, pigs, poultry etc.

I'm sure most people on here know why I'm so defensive of Beef in particular. It's obviously because I think in the right production system in a climate such as ours it is a wonderful product with low environmental impact.

I absolutely advocate for people here eating more fish/seafood I find it strange that an island nation dosen't eat much of it to be fair.

Just think it strange that someone would point out that fish can have different environmental impact depending on how it's produced but not see the same is possible for meat.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

Really? My goodness you seem very angry. Why is that? The only thing I said about "cattle" in that comment was this:

That is fact. If you dont like those facts.Tough.

Today You cannot put put cattle and sustainability in one sentence ... simples

gozunda wrote: »

Lol. Grow it all here you say? So we can grow french beans commercially like they do in Kenya. Yeah right get you lol.

Yes ... They do it in Holland so we can do it here ...

gozunda wrote: »

And just so we can be like the Netherlands - we are going to roof the entire county in plastic- fuk the environmental impact and the need to use huge amounts of resources, pesticides etc just so you can chew down on your bean burger or whatever. Sure thing boss.

No we do not need to do that ... Do you have any studies that finds crop growing has more impact on the environment then meat/dairy farming ? You somehow seem to believe that

gozunda wrote: »

Tbh the only waffle I see here - is that coming from a few - who appear to know absolutely nothing about agricultural production, seasonality of production etc whatsover but would like to tell everyone else what they should be doing and eating.

The way it is now Meat and dairy farming are unsustainable and are ****ing up the earth ...

gozunda wrote: »

Some also seem to under the strange misapprehension that importing cheap food over long distances or from areas with few if any environmental or ethical standards is somehow more 'sustainable' and better than producing mainly grass fed beef and world class dairy products with strict production controls here. That said I do see areas which require significant improvements in their sectors.

Who here is in favor of importing cheap meat ?

gozunda wrote: »

However from what I can see the interpretation of the 'reseach' (sic) used is wildly inaccurate and seems to be coming from a small number of extremist plant food advocates and the vegan food industry. We even have some of the proponents of these ideas demanding proof of what they is saying is not true, but hillarilously fail to attach the same conditions to their own baseless arguments. You really couldn't make it up.

I suggest you take of the blinkers and research it properly ... what you are suggesting here is laughable and shows your true colors

gozunda wrote: »

Heres an idea - start your own vegetable producing business and come back in a few years and let us know how that went for you ok?

Ahh the cheap cop out approach

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

Theres only one load of waffle there and it's not the comment you quoted tb. And thats the thing there is fuk all facts presented except vague ideas and opinions how the usual meat is bad etc ....

My original "fact" point Silverharp quoted

weisses wrote: »

I mean the meat and dairy industry are big contributors in messing up the climate ...that is a fact,

Which is according to proper research a fact

The response to it only contained whataboutery and moving goalpost and now you added opinionated waffle to that list

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

Today You cannot put put cattle and sustainability in one sentence simplesYesThey do it in Holland so we can do it here .No we do not need to do that Do you have any studies that finds crop growing has more impact on the environment then meat/dairy farming ? You somehow seem to believe thatThe way it is now Meat and dairy farming are unsustainable and are ****ing up the earth ... Who here is in favor of importing cheap meat ?I suggest you take of the blinkers and research it properly ... what you are suggesting here is laughable and shows your true colorsAhh the cheap cop out approach

Tell you what as you are evidently are a such a big expert in agriculture and horticulture and know everything - you come up with viable ways of overcoming the significant problems to growing a wide range of vegetables here commercially. So seasonality, climate, topography, soil, environmental impacts etc. Please support your answer with studies that show how such crop growing on a commercial scale will impact the environment here and compare and contrast that to meat/dairy farming. By the way hows is your preparation going setting up your vegetable growing enterprise? Are you ready to report back on the planning stage yet?

gozunda

weisses wrote: »

My original "fact" point Silverharp quotedWhich is according to proper research a fact.The response to it only contained whataboutery and moving goalpost and now you added opinionated waffle to that list

You like the word "waffle". I think you must be familiar with it ...

Anyway funny that because the gas thing about this whole discussion is that you'd think that meat and / or dairy was the same as nuclear waste or something they way some go on and on ....

The fact is that fossil fuel use in the energy and transport sectors are responsible for the largest proportion of all greenhouse gas emissions and yes that has been identified as fuking up the climate. Dont seem the same boys screaming about cars and insisting that people should turn off their oil powered central heating oddly enough.

The facts are gobally agriculture only makes up approximately 14 -16% of all emissions and yet we have the screamers day and night losing their fillies over 'meat'. I believe it boils down to the fact that becuase they dont eat like or meat etc - they believe no one else should.

Thankfully much of this screaming is just that and doesnt stand up to even what the IPCC scientists are saying

“Balanced diets featuring plant-based foods, such as coarse grains, legumes, fruits and vegetables, and animal-sourced food produced sustainably in low greenhouse gas emission systems, present major opportunities for adaptation to and limiting climate change,” she said. ~

Debra Roberts, co-chair of the IPCC Working Group II.

So a fairly normal balanced diet then ...

Heres a interesting article about sustainable beef production

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01965615

Theres loads more out there if you bother looking ...

Upstream

weisses wrote: »

Stop spouting the waffle that meat/dairy farming as it is now is somehow sustainable.

No one on here is saying that all meat and dairy production as it is now is sustainable .
But we are saying that some is better than sustainable - it's regenerative and has a positive impact on the environment, and this is the direction we should be headed. You don't seem to believe that is possible.

All the research suggest that switching to a predominantly plant/based diet is good for the earth and Humans ... win/win

All the research??? Really, you've been a busy bee, reading all the research - did you read anything on regenerative agriculture?
I would argue that moving to a non industrial food based diet would have a much greater impact on people's health and the environment than simply cutting out all meat

If you can find one respectable paper that states the environmental impact of crop growing is larger then meat/dairy farming please post it here

Of course crops can be grown in a way that damages the environment.
Compare a monoculture of GM soy to the rye grown in the video I posted of the Krameterhof. Think about the problems of the monoculture - the species reduction, soil damage and loss of carbon to the atmosphere, nutrient runoff and pollution, ocean deadzones etc etc

We should be aiming for is regenerative agriculture and soil health.
Healthy soil - healthy plants - healthy people - healthy planet

emaherx

weisses wrote: »

My original "fact" point Silverharp quoted



Which is according to proper research a fact

The response to it only contained whataboutery and moving goalpost and now you added opinionated waffle to that list

Wow you say fact a lot, it really backs up your argument. There is loads of research on both sides of the argument not all weisses approved I know.

Although I found you can put beef and sustainability in the same sentence.

There are many ways beef production—when sustainably managed—can achieve conservation benefits. Grazing maintains the health of grasslands, improves soil quality with manure, and preserves open space and wildlife habitat. Additionally, carbon is sequestered in the grasses and soils of grazing lands. Beef production also provides social benefits by sustaining livelihoods and community vibrancy in rural areas where grasslands dominate. In the Northern Great Plains, for example, WWF is partnering with ranchers, recognizing that their viability is key to keeping grasslands intact. When ranchers manage land for long-term health, wildlife and people, everyone wins.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/beef
It's funny it's not just farmers who say these things.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

Yes just like there are different types of meat farms. Even different types of production within the various sectors, like beef, pigs, poultry etc.

I'm sure most people on here know why I'm so defensive of Beef in particular. It's obviously because I think in the right production system in a climate such as ours it is a wonderful product with low environmental impact.

I absolutely advocate for people here eating more fish/seafood I find it strange that an island nation dosen't eat much of it to be fair.

Just think it strange that someone would point out that fish can have different environmental impact depending on how it's produced but not see the same is possible for meat.

I didn't suggest all meat production types have the same environmental impact. Obviously there are different practices with different environmental impacts.

Honestly, I'm just seeing how far out of your way you'll go to hold the line.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I didn't suggest all meat production types have the same environmental impact. Obviously there are different practices with different environmental impacts.

Might not have said it but certainly reads like you suggested it

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Honestly, I'm just seeing how far out of your way you'll go to hold the line.

All the way

Upstream

weisses wrote: »

Today You cannot put put cattle and sustainability in one sentence ... simples

Never mind sustainability - we're too late for that. But this man makes a persuasive case for putting cattle and regenerative agriculture in the same sentence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI

https://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change

The way it is now Meat and dairy farming are unsustainable and are ****ing up the earth ...

It's industrial agriculture that is the problem, it's not the cow, it's the how.
That means farmers have to change their ways - just not in the way you think.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

All the way

Yeah I can see that. It's a pity because you could be a relative authority on the topic if you weren't just towing a line and giving one perspective. If you were honestly discussing the whole topic instead of just supporting meat and arguing against anything else.

Seanachai

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends on the environmental impact. I've been using the term a bit loosely to cover both sustainability of the fish and overall environmental impact. So when I said sustainable I was referring to both.

Why?

Not a fan of fish farms, for human health and ecosystem health reasons.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah I can see that. It's a pity because you could be a relative authority on the topic if you weren't just towing a line and giving one perspective. If you were honestly discussing the whole topic instead of just supporting meat and arguing against anything else.

To be fair I'm not arguing against everything else, I told you I'd like to see Irish people eat more sea food and I'm certainly not against vegetables or anything. I have given my opinion here that I'd like to see more extensive animal farming and better use of arable land and that I'm not for any kind of farming that permanently houses animals. Just sometimes people direct conversation a certain way.

It's the funny thing you defend meat and your automatically against everything else, but I eat more fruit/veg in my diet it's not like I'm a complete carnivore chewing on a side of beef 24/7

Thelonious Monk

Seanachai wrote: »

Not a fan of fish farms, for human health and ecosystem health reasons.

I think they're pretty inefficient in that you have to feed a salmon 10kg of other fish or something like that. Also disease spreads easily and if they escape that f*cks up the ecosystem too. Also all the fish sh*te ruins the surrounding waters.

gozunda

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah I can see that. It's a pity because you could be a relative authority on the topic if you weren't just towing a line and giving one perspective. If you were honestly discussing the whole topic instead of just supporting meat and arguing against anything else.

And previous ...

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And you don't use the information you have impartiality. Thats obvious. You.coild be an interesting source of information on this topic if you werent exclusively biased towards the defending meat industry

Odd how the usual heads that scream the loudest in these types of threads can't even come up with an original comeback. :rolleyes:

As if the plant food interests demonstrate any impartially lol ...

Says something about the lack of credibility involved tbh ...

Upstream

gozunda wrote: »

And previous ...



Odd how the usual heads that scream the loudest in these types of threads can't even come up with an original comeback. :rolleyes:

Says something about the lack of credibility involved tbh ...

I'd say it's a credibility issue Gozunda - but that's not to attack anyone - most people now find it simply incredible that anyone could say beef could be good for the environment.
It's a reasonable attitude if you believe even a fraction of what you hear about animal agriculture in the media.

In my case I think it took me about two or three weeks to take in what I'd seen in the Allan Savory video I posted above about how cows could have a major role in reversing climate change.
And I'm a beef farmer...
Maybe not the quickest learner

Eventually the penny dropped and I realised I'd fallen down the soil health rabbit hole, and the whole world looked different then.
Everything looks different through the lens of soil health, from the causes of environmental problems like flooding and climate change, even as far as the effects on human health of eating food grown in healthy soil.

And that's why I'm trying to move away from industrial farming towards regenerative agriculture, and throw up some arguments in defense of beef here, as it's not the problem, the damage to our soils from the industrial food model is.

emaherx

Yesterday is a good example of that, the UN report and what was reported by the media outlets were worlds apart.

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

And previous ...



Odd how the usual heads that scream the loudest in these types of threads can't even come up with an original comeback. :rolleyes:

As if the plant food interests demonstrate any impartially lol ...

Says something about the lack of credibility involved tbh ...

Same response because it's the exact same issue. You have plenty of info and experience so you could be a great source of info on the topic. But instead you only argue against anything that wouldn't suit your own industry.

You made that list of environmentally helpful behaviours and refused to answer when I asked you about eating less environmentally Impactful fish in lieu of more impactful meat. So you used the environmental argument right up to the point that it could be used to promote some fish over meat. Once that arose, you didn't seem to want to discuss the environmental impact of food choices.

It's clear as day you will use any argument of you think it helps make your point and drop it as soon as the facts don't suit your bias.

El_Duderino 09

emaherx wrote: »

To be fair I'm not arguing against everything else, I told you I'd like to see Irish people eat more sea food and I'm certainly not against vegetables or anything. I have given my opinion here that I'd like to see more extensive animal farming and better use of arable land and that I'm not for any kind of farming that permanently houses animals. Just sometimes people direct conversation a certain way.

It's the funny thing you defend meat and your automatically against everything else, but I eat more fruit/veg in my diet it's not like I'm a complete carnivore chewing on a side of beef 24/7

OK. Would you like to see people eat more fish if it came at the expense of beef consumption?

Upstream

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Same response because it's the exact same issue. You have plenty of info and experience so you could be a great source of info on the topic. But instead you only argue against anything that wouldn't suit your own industry.

You made that list of environmentally helpful behaviours and refused to answer when I asked you about eating less environmentally Impactful fish in lieu of more impactful meat. So you used the environmental argument right up to the point that it could be used to promote some fish over meat. Once that arose, you didn't seem to want to discuss the environmental impact of food choices.

It's clear as day you will use any argument of you think it helps make your point and drop it as soon as the facts don't suit your bias.

The way you asked the question it was as if meat could not be good for the environment. That's not the case, see the link below, beef can build soil and sequester carbon!

If the choice was between industrially produced meat vs regeneratively produced fish, I'd choose the fish.

But my argument is we need to move all food production away from industrial production, towards regenerative production.

emaherx

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

OK. Would you like to see people eat more fish if it came at the expense of beef consumption?

Not especially, but if that's what people want to eat. Compared to the sentiment of threads like this that have people who just don't like meat looking to have beef farming and all meat production abolished or at least reduced to near nothing,do you not think fish industry would be next in their sights?