Rise of Vegetarian/Veganism

Thelonious Monk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I don't know I am no expert on these things.

Im not asking you but there are who i assume to be cattle farmers active on this thread

ILoveYourVibes

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Im not asking you but there are who i assume to be cattle farmers active on this thread

I don't think so.

Too busy.

emaherx

Xcellor wrote: »

So shouldn't we choose a system that does less destruction and can feed signifcantly more people?

Yes absolutely, nothing more destructive to land than constant tilling, manged grazing on the other hand is beneficial to soils. And mixed rotations between grazing and crops can be very beneficial to arrable lands. Not to mention the benefit of manure from animals for such lands.

Can't feed people grass, much of the land is only suitable for grass.

Seanachai

I tried vegetarianism at different times and I had to come off it for health reasons, I just don't think full-time vegetarianism suits the majority of people.

https://www.mygenefood.com/can-vegans-get-enough-vitamin-answer-may-genetic/

Thelonious Monk

Seanachai wrote: »

I tried vegetarianism at different times and I had to come off it for health reasons, I just don't think full-time vegetarianism suits the majority of people.

https://www.mygenefood.com/can-vegans-get-enough-vitamin-answer-may-genetic/

Maybe so but I still don't think we need to be producing and consuming meat at the insane levels that we are

ILoveYourVibes

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe so but I still don't think we need to be producing and consuming meat at the insane levels that we are

Ok. Why not?

Thelonious Monk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Ok. Why not?

Maybe read back over this thread a bit to hear both sides of the argument.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Im not asking you but there are who i assume to be cattle farmers active on this thread

6.9million hectares of farm land in Ireland. So about 2.5 to 3 cows/ calves per hectare.

So about 30 million odd cattle would be about the limit.


There are 115,000 cattle farms in Ireland with an average of 60 cattle. 53% have less than 10 cows (not total cattle) these small farms tend to be quite extensively farmed.

auspicious

Anti-vegans will not listen. It's a wasted effort to debate them.
And some people argue just for the sake of it.

ILoveYourVibes

auspicious wrote: »

Anti-vegans will not listen. It's a wasted effort to debate them.
And some people argue just for the sake of it.

I'll listen what is your side? I am a vegetarian so don't know if i count.

Are anti vegans just meat eaters?

emaherx

auspicious wrote: »

Anti-vegans will not listen. It's a wasted effort to debate them.
And some people argue just for the sake of it.

Anti-omnivores are no better to be fair!

King of Kings

Xcellor wrote: »

Vegans have lowest BMI

Which means absolutely fu8k all on its own.
Lame attempt

But ill have a guess that a proper study would show then to be mostly scrawny and weak.

emaherx

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I'll listen what is your side? I am a vegetarian so don't know if i count.

Are anti vegans just meat eaters?

Exactly who is anti-vegan?

Don't see many omnivores turning up at vegan restaurants and shouting "why carrots not grass" or literally turning up at vegans homes in bus loads to show the world what goes on in their property.

weisses

gozunda wrote: »

And then there are the few who give out to those who choose to eat a normal diet

What is a normal diet ?

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

Exactly who is anti-vegan?

Don't see many omnivores turning up at vegan restaurants and shouting "why carrots not grass" or literally turning up at vegans homes in bus loads to show the world what goes on in their property.

well vegans aren't harming animals or keeping them in horrible conditions so there's nothing really to protest to vegans about. I totally get why vegans might protest a pig farm, although I think the recent protests at a pig farm were just animal rights activists, not vegans in particular.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

well vegans aren't harming animals or keeping them in horrible conditions so there's nothing really to protest to vegans about. I totally get why vegans might protest a pig farm, although I think the recent protests at a pig farm were just animal rights activists, not vegans in particular.

Neither are all farms, but they don't differentiate and would rather the world believed all farm animals were treated the same.

Like your questions about how many cattle is too much for Ireland, but you don't care about the difference between intensively farmed and extensively farmed

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

Neither are all farms, but they don't differentiate and would rather the world believed all farm animals were treated the same.

Like your questions about how many cattle is too much for Ireland, but you don't care about the difference between intensively farmed and extensively farmed

I know, and Irish cows look like happy cows, but I still think there are far too many for it not to have a detrimental effect on the land.
Pig farming is what was being protested in the example I brought up, those poor f*ckers never see the light of day and are in horrible cramped conditions.

weisses

Seanachai wrote: »

I tried vegetarianism at different times and I had to come off it for health reasons, I just don't think full-time vegetarianism suits the majority of people.

https://www.mygenefood.com/can-vegans-get-enough-vitamin-answer-may-genetic/

I think they do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud2UfUHZm4w

ILoveYourVibes

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

well vegans aren't harming animals or keeping them in horrible conditions so there's nothing really to protest to vegans about. I totally get why vegans might protest a pig farm, although I think the recent protests at a pig farm were just animal rights activists, not vegans in particular.

Animals are killed to grow all crops. Mice rabbits etc for wheat salad veg rice.

I am not saying vegans are bad people i respect their choices. I chose to be veggie but i don't think i am a better person for being so.

Thelonious Monk

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Animals are killed to grow all crops. Mice rabbits etc for wheat salad veg rice.

I am not saying vegans are bad people i respect their choices. I chose to be veggie but i don't think i am a better person for being so.

Ok but even more land is used to grow crops to feed animals. We really need to be doing the least amount damage possible right now with the exploding human population.

Effects

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

You are very naive.

A UK tribunal has confirmed it. Its been well reported in Hong Kong. A little in the west but not much.

From the guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes

I'd read that Guardian article previously. And I'm well aware that this disgusting practice is pretty widespread in China.

I just don't think it happens as frequently as you state, without anaesthetic. That's certainly not mentioned in most of the information you posted.

It just doesn't make sense from a practical point of view.
It would make the surgeons job much harder to do.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I know, and Irish cows look like happy cows, but I still think there are far too many for it not to have a detrimental effect on the land.
Pig farming is what was being protested in the example I brought up, those poor f*ckers never see the light of day and are in horrible cramped conditions.

Extensively farmed cattle have a positive effect on the land. Over production of crops has detrimental effect on the land.

I have to agree I'd like to see more extensive farming, especially with pigs and poultry.

ILoveYourVibes

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ok but even more land is used to grow crops to feed animals. We really need to be doing the least amount damage possible right now with the exploding human population.

Yes and that land is preserved by them.

Also in Ireland most cattle is grass fed. They graze a lot.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

I have to agree I'd like to see more extensive farming, especially with pigs and poultry.

We wouldn't be able to produce the amount we consume and export using more extensive farming so it's a non-runner

weisses

got two words mixed up

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ok but even more land is used to grow crops to feed animals. We really need to be doing the least amount damage possible right now with the exploding human population.

Animals eat a lot of by products from crops grown for humans as well as crops not suitable for humans as they are grown in unsuitable land. Most cattle here are predominantly fed grass.

ILoveYourVibes

Effects wrote: »

I'd read that Guardian article previously. And I'm well aware that this disgusting practice is pretty widespread in China.

I just don't think it happens as frequently as you state, without anaesthetic. That's certainly not mentioned in most of the information you posted.

It just doesn't make sense from a practical point of view.
It would make the surgeons job much harder to do.

Always without anesthetic. Check the thread in CA.

emaherx

weisses wrote: »

Problem is that extensive meat farming is in general bad for the animal and to ad you don't need to overproduce crops to feed the population

So your point is mute

Look up the word extensive.

ILoveYourVibes

weisses wrote: »

Problem is that extensive meat farming is in general bad for the animal

We don't have that here and are unlikely to though.

Suckit

weisses wrote: »

Problem is that extensive meat farming is in general bad for the animal and to ad you don't need to overproduce crops to feed the population

So your point is mute

emaherx wrote: »

Look up the word extensive.

Also the word 'moot'.

weisses

emaherx wrote: »

Look up the word extensive.

I misread and I mixed up on this end .. I apologize

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We wouldn't be able to produce the amount we consume and export using more extensive farming so it's a non-runner

We could produce way more than we consume with plenty still to export, people would just need to be willing to pay a little extra for a far superior and more humane product.

gozunda

Xcellor wrote: »

So what are you saying? This organization made up of thousands of practicing dieticians and nutritional experts accounts for nothing because a cofounder of the organization is vegan? Seventh day aventists are not exclusively vegan/vegetarian

I was clearly saying that using that lot as back up support for a vegan diet is dodgy as fuk. Its not the 1000s who wrote that paper justifying an plant food diet - just a couple of veg*ns. And yes seventh day Adventist promote and lobby for a meat free diet. And it's not only me saying that btw.

https://letthemeatmeat.com/post/26647492370/final-thoughts-on-the-american-dietetic

The typical vegan diet is not one consisting of coke and chips. Unfortunately given the obesity / diabetes (even now in children) who are onmivores I believe it's more helpful to look at this rather than the coke and chips vegan.

The point 'vegan' is not healthy by definition.

I agree though that perhaps a diet that consisted of less than 10% animal protein/fat could be healthy but there are very few omnivores that don't consume animal protein/fat in every single meal. The traditional diet of Okinawa people for example might be a good omnivore diet to follow for better health outcomes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet

I'm aware of that and the Mediterranean diet and the others as promoted by the heart foundation all including meat and dairy. Funny that


https://irishheart.ie/your-health/ways-to-live-better/healthy-eating/

Life expectancy has decreased recently though... I wonder why.

Possibly because life expectancy has been growing for at least the last century due to a range of factors.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/313293.php

So shouldn't we choose a system that does less destruction and can feed signifcantly more people?

Why? There is no world food shortage as pointed out previously. Arable and horticultural cultivation are hugely destructive - expand those and your back to where you started. We have agricultural systems to suit different climatic and topographical regions. Let's work with that - whether that is animal or vegetable.

https://www.worldhunger.org/letter-food-shortage-world-questions/

Yes ethics is a personal choice agreed.
Production of 90 billion land animals is not "recycling" come on! :rolleyes: We are omnivores but we also have the ability to make choices. We can get all the benefit that meat provides without directly slaughtering sentient beings to get it. Thankfully we dont have to rely exclusively on anecdotal "evidence" controlled randomized studies are helping to direct consensus and the evidence is increasing day by day...

Look I'll give you points for trying. The eating of meat is part of entrophy like it or not. So some dont like eating any meat. I get that and if thats what you want fair enough. However It's the endless kitchen sink throwing which results in vegsn advocates losing most of their credibility with daft whacky claims digging up papers written by other vegans and suggestions like that their diet will help cure just about everything else.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

We could produce way more than we consume with plenty still to export, people would just need to be willing to pay a little extra for a far superior and more humane product.

We could also eat less, and pay more yes, but people are so detached from where food comes that they'll buy what's cheapest. I remember seeing something on TV once where British teenagers couldn't even say what animal a pork sausage came from.

s7ryf3925pivug

We import huge quantities of soy based animal feed that was grown on land that was doing just fine as forest.

emaherx

Madden Uptight Gristle wrote: »

We import huge quantities of soy based animal feed that was grown on land that was doing just fine as forest.

Been a massive reduction in imports from South America this year as imports from US increased 283%. Still not ideal.

Thelonious Monk

emaherx wrote: »

Been a massive reduction in imports from South America this year as imports from US increased 283%. Still not ideal.

Is this because there isn't enough grass or we have too many cattle to feed or what? Is this not a sign we have too many here?

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Ok but even more land is used to grow crops to feed animals. We really need to be doing the least amount damage possible right now with the exploding human population.

Again misinformstion regularly repeated by various pro-vegan advocates.

Firstly what is fed to farm animals is mainly forage here. In countries where there is not as plentiful forage - what gets fed to animals is primarily the left overs or by products of human food production.

http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/home/en/news_archive/2017_More_Fuel_for_the_Food_Feed.html

All this left over material-often inedible to humans would itself go to waste. And the fact is that much of the grassland cant be converted to arable production due to unsuitable topography and climatic conditions.

Madden Uptight Gristle wrote: »

We import huge quantities of soy based animal feed that was grown on land that was doing just fine as forest.

The soy based animal feed of which you speak is mainly meal and husk. These are the by- products of the processing of soy beans for oil. Soy oil is one of the most common oils produced and is used in huge quantities in China and other countries. Of note must of tgd meal produced in Brazil goes to China.

The waste meal and husk left over after processing for oil is of such large quantities that it is used in just about everything including industrial applications and not just fed to cattle. In Ireland such animsl feed tends to be supplementary only - for example when animals have to be housed during winter months etc.

emaherx

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is this because there isn't enough grass or we have too many cattle to feed or what? Is this not a sign we have too many here?

No, most of it is fed to pigs and chickens indoors. Some fed to cattle to fatten them quicker but not because of food shortage.

If all the imported animal feed was fed to cattle and nothing else it would feed them for about 3 weeks.

Seanachai

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Maybe so but I still don't think we need to be producing and consuming meat at the insane levels that we are

I'm for perma-culture and local food production, there's a load of emphasis on climate change but sfa in comparison about the soil health and producing quality food.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

You often try and catch eels with oil on your hands ?

I've no idea what that means in relation to this discussion. What does it mean?

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

If you have a problem with my posts report them. Dont hide behind mealy mouthed claptrap.

I'm pretty sure I said exactly what I think in all 3 of those posts you quoted. How it that hiding behind anything? I've said exactly what I think.

Thelonious Monk

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I've no idea what that means in relation to this discussion. What does it mean?

you said

I'll wait for you to say something that the meat farming industry lobby wouldn't agree with. Your claims to be an honest broker are guff.

so I suppose he meant that's as likely to happen as catching an eel with oil all over your hands. A queer analogy but I kinda like it.

s7ryf3925pivug

emaherx wrote: »

No, most of it is fed to pigs and chickens indoors. Some fed to cattle to fatten them quicker but not because of food shortage.

If all the imported animal feed was fed to cattle and nothing else it would feed them for about 3 weeks.

we imported over 4 million tonnes of animal feed in 2018, not counting cereals not in feed products but bought to be fed to animals.

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

The problem is that anyone pointing out the misinformation and bs pushed about this subject is jumped upon. And yes you prove that point yet again.

My interest is in food and how it is produced and yes that's my interest just like those who post about football or whatever interests them.

Whsts obvious is that you advocate that others are not allowed to comment on such threads even where bs about food and farming is being peddled. Why is it that freedom of expression should only work for select groups?

Dont like the truth? Tough!

Edit: Btw since when is farming only the "meat industry" (sic)? Yet even more fanatical thinking. Tbh I wouldn't expect any less considering the appalling standard of discussion from the likes of the poster you've attempted to defend. But hey what new.

The bits in bold are weak. You're being jumped upon and advocating that you're not allowed to comment? I see this a lot when people are challenged they consider themselves to be silenced. Very weak.

It would be much better if l you didn't pretend to be an honest participant in the discussion. You only argue against things that wouldn't suit the meat industry that would suit the meat industry and can't see anything to argue against in the meat industry itself.

Just to clarify, nobody is silencing you. Simply making clear that you're not an honest broker of information. You're only pro meat industry and only anti vegetarian/vegan because they threaten the meat industry. It's clear as day.

Ave Sodalis

Thelonious Monk wrote:

well vegans aren't harming animals

PETA.

El_Duderino 09

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

so I suppose he meant that's as likely to happen as catching an eel with oil all over your hands. A queer analogy but I kinda like it.

Oh I see what yoh mean klopparama. Like I said, I won't hold my breath waiting. On the other hand, maybe the meat industry has only bulletproof arguments so there is never need to say anything they wouldn't already agree with. We'll wait and see

ILoveYourVibes

Why cant we let vegans be vegans veggie be veggie and omnis be ..you get the picture.

El_Duderino 09

gozunda wrote: »

If you for some bizarre reason think something is dodgy going on as you insinuated repeatedly in those posts then report it. That or you clearly missed what was posted previously. Personally I always find it a good guide for constructive posting. But perhaps that's just me ....



Otherwise you just keep "lobbying" (sic) for the plant food industry as evidently all opinion which you disagree with belongs to the opposite number ....

You've a fascinating tenancy to assume the opposite of what someone's said. Because I oppose your pro meat industry lobbying, you assume I'm pro plant lobby. For example I bet you couldn't point to anything I've said that would be pro plant food lobby. But you're whole schtick is almost exclusively what you would expect to hear from the meat industry lobby.

Wouldn't you just be honest about the inherent bias in your posts?

ILoveYourVibes

This thread is madder than i am.