"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

lawlolawl

Here's Cersei in S6 looking towards the barren plain that the final scene of last nights episode took place in.


Look at all that flat desert land!

Gbear

lawlolawl wrote: »

It's literally just teleporting people around the map to have "moments" of pure fan service for people who still somehow think that this show hasn't turned into absolute Marvel-esque ****e.


I don't care who wins now because the characters/scenes are being written to be whatever the fans on social media want.

Don't insult Marvel by comparing it to this garbage. Including fan service is fine. It's the lack of consistent characters, sense of object permanence, action with stakes and clear progression, total ignorance about basic storytelling concepts and treating the audience like utter morons that's the problem.

Marvel films might be simple but at a minimum they get the basics right.

mr_cochise

mr_cochise wrote: »

Maybe they should have done a 5 minute montage of Bronn asking for directions to the two boys and occasionally narrowly missing them, and just when it looked like he was never going to find them he suddenly smiles and goes directly to where they are. That Bryan McFadden song with Delta could've been the music.

Hey...Jerome Flynn could have sang over that montage himself!

Gbear

Gbear wrote: »

That was absolute tripe.

I'm hardly going to stop 2 episodes before the end of a a 7 season show, but I certainly wont miss it when it's gone.

It'll be interesting to see what the legacy of this show will be. I suspect very little of the last couple of seasons will live long in memory. It'll still be referencing back to Bean, Addy and Dance, the Red Wedding and the Battle of castle black, but probably nothing since.

In short - 'Lost' of the 2010s, for the good and the bad.

uncleoswald

lawlolawl wrote: »

Here's Cersei in S6 looking towards the barren plain that the final scene of last nights episode took place in.


Look at all that flat desert land!

It was barren because they had felled all the trees for the war effort. The area around Winterfell was also barren before the battle their for the same reason. For why it was so flat, I've got nothing.

lawlolawl

uncleoswald wrote: »

It was barren because they had felled all the trees for the war effort. The area around Winterfell was also barren before the battle their for the same reason. For why it was so flat, I've got nothing.

Did they fell the hills as well?

TerrorFirmer

uncleoswald wrote: »

It was barren because they had felled all the trees for the war effort. The area around Winterfell was also barren before the battle their for the same reason. For why it was so flat, I've got nothing.

Winterfell is also portrayed in this season as being on a pretty flat plain for some reason, just like Kings Landing...it also doesn't quite tally with earlier representations. They honestly must just be trying to keep secondary cgi to a bare minimum or something.

Gbear

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In short - 'Lost' of the 2010s, for the good and the bad.

What followed Lost? I think seeing the Wheel of Time, the Witcher, and perhaps even the new LOTR series getting greenlit is part of GOT's legacy. Was there really any serious fantasy series prior to it?

Hopefully with the benefit of hindsight we see that it was a proof of concept that is built on, but also a cautionary tale for unfinished stories.

Wheel of Time is two and a half times the length of ASOIAF but they'll be able to plan ahead of time what they need to trim and how to lay the show out to get the most of the material, instead of having to wing it from half way through.

Turtyturd

lawlolawl wrote: »

Here's Cersei in S6 looking towards the barren plain that the final scene of last nights episode took place in.


Look at all that flat desert land!

Can’t wait for your next one of these.

lawlolawl

Gbear wrote: »

What followed Lost? I think seeing the Wheel of Time, the Witcher, and perhaps even the new LOTR series getting greenlit is part of GOT's legacy. Was there really any serious fantasy series prior to it?

Hopefully with the benefit of hindsight we see that it was a proof of concept that is built on, but also a cautionary tale for unfinished stories.

Wheel of Time is two and a half times the length of ASOIAF but they'll be able to plan ahead of time what they need to trim and how to lay the show out to get the most of the material, instead of having to wing it from half way through.

The Wheel of Time was utter garbage by book 5.


/tugs braid



I'd like to see the Malazan books adapted to TV but there isn't a hope of that happening because the cast would be massive and the CGI budget would be astronomical.

Cienciano

razorblunt wrote: »

Re-watching it with the Mrs here, if Cersei was committed to killing Missandei, why not line the arrows up at the stationary dragon too?
Or was he just out of range?
To be safe why not put him into the little valley behind him.

Well, apparently they shoot in a dead straight line losing no power for at least 5km. And have instant reload time, quickly than an artillery shell. They can even hit you from behind hills

titan18

lawlolawl wrote:

I'd like to see the Malazan books adapted to TV but there isn't a hope of that happening because the cast would be massive and the CGI budget would be astronomical.

No. Can't allow some eejit in TV ruin that. Stand alone parts of it could be adapted (Chain of Dogs was the main rumour) but no way anyone can do justice to all 10 books. GOT is a children's book in comparison to Malazans scope.

lawlolawl

titan18 wrote: »

No. Can't allow some eejit in TV ruin that. Stand alone parts of it could be adapted (Chain of Dogs was the main rumour) but no way anyone can do justice to all 10 books. GOT is a children's book in comparison to Malazans scope.

Agreed. There's parts of it that you wouldn't have a hope of explaining to any kind of a sizable TV audience so it would inevitably end up being dumbed down to the extreme.

Gbear

lawlolawl wrote: »

The Wheel of Time was utter garbage by book 5.


/tugs braid



I'd like to see the Malazan books adapted to TV but there isn't a hope of that happening because the cast would be massive and the CGI budget would be astronomical.

Their weaknesses are less a fundamental problem and more down to poor pacing and chopping up of plot threads too thinly across several books, and some needless wheel spinning. I can see that being tightened up pretty handily for TV.

Also, book 5 is incorrect. Book 6 is arguably the best in the series. It's afterwards the dawdling begins.

I tried Malazan but it just felt pointless and impenetrable.

PhiloCypher

Well that was mostly ****e. The Brienne Jaime sex scene was pure fan service. The Bronn Jaime and Tyrion reunion, underwhelming. They cut away from Jon/Bran explaining his parentage why? I was expecting a **** load more pathos to be wrung from Jon saying goodbye to Sam, Tormund and Ghost, but it's all very 'see you later' and he pawns Ghost off without so much as a pet. The good guys are out manoeuvred and ambushed again. Its getting beyond a joke now, they're a step below tripping on their own shoelaces or taking a rake to the face after standing on it in their comical incompetence.

The only scenes that worked for me were Jon and Dany's fire side scene with Dany's becoming increasingly crazed, the Gendry Arya scene with its nice callback to her conversation with Ned about "that's not me", and Tyrion and Varys talking about who would make the better ruler.

johnnyskeleton

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Was a rage head last week.

Solid episode. I loved it.

Me too. Reminds me of the first few series where the battles often took place off screen and what we had were reaction shots.

I felt Jon couldve kept the secret - Ned kept the same secret and Jon learned his code of honour from him. Also I dont see any reason why he couldnt marry Danerys and be the king in name but she in charge. It would be his duty to ensure no more bloodshed etc.

Arya back to being a psycho killer is great, and the hound being surly etc all good. Tyrion trying to figure out the right path. Generally the characters are back to doing what they do best, and sets it up quite well for the next two episodes.

lawlolawl

Gbear wrote: »

I tried Malazan but it just felt pointless and impenetrable.

I'll admit the first book is a tad simplistic because it was written as the setting for a tabletop RPG but everything from the second book onward is truly amazing.


I'm not even that big a fan of fantasy books but it is a legitimately great series. If you think GRRM subverts the typical themes then you ain't seen nothing yet.


It's just a shame that it would be absolutely impossible to do justice to as a TV series.

Dave_The_Sheep

lawlolawl wrote: »

The Wheel of Time was utter garbage by book 5.


/tugs braid

Books 1-6 were fantastic. Book 7-8 were merely very good. Book 9 and 10 were utter ****e, 9 saved a little by a great ending. Book 11-14 were top notch again.

It's verbose, sure, but it's far from garbage.

lawlolawl

https://i.imgur.com/3ozCzf2.mp4

"Is that a Starbu......? **** it, i'm getting paid either way!"

PhlegmyMoses

Jon is gonna die, 100%. Him sending off his direwolf and going south is the death knell.

WinnyThePoo

I hope the last shot of the series is thormond running around with ghost having fun.

Paddy Cow

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Me too. Reminds me of the first few series where the battles often took place off screen and what we had were reaction shots.

I felt Jon couldve kept the secret - Ned kept the same secret and Jon learned his code of honour from him. Also I dont see any reason why he couldnt marry Danerys and be the king in name but she in charge. It would be his duty to ensure no more bloodshed etc.

Arya back to being a psycho killer is great, and the hound being surly etc all good. Tyrion trying to figure out the right path. Generally the characters are back to doing what they do best, and sets it up quite well for the next two episodes.

It would never work. Dany wants to be The Queen and won't play second fiddle to Jon. Plus Varys had it spot on - in a million years Jon won't marry his aunt and have sex with her.

podgemonster

David Nutter had 80 minutes to get Dany cheering and swigging a Dornish Latté in Winterfell to her watching Missandeis head fly from the walls of Meereen, sorry King Landing. The show had to take a breath but also launch forward the second half of the season storyline. It was going to feel rushed in parts. It was and the quality fell in places.

I loved the opening half hour. Jon sounded like a King honoring the dead, Tyrion noticeably impressed. The great hall meal starts off slow in a sombre mood broken by Dany by honouring Gendry. Sansa is disgusted, Theon is still crisping outside and Dany rejoins the Game of Thrones and secures the Stormlands in one move. We got our first paranoid shot of Dany in the hall, Jons followers with their collars turned, Lannisters lions laughing, Varys is the only one who immediately sees the danger, knowing the family history. I immediately wondered what Littlefinger would be like in that room as Dany starred at all the strangers with their backs to her as her Latté cooled but I've come to the realisation that Sansa is fulfilling Littlefingers role here in a way and starts to meddle when she lights an idea in Tyrions head that could kill a Dragon Queen.

The discussions between Tyrion and Varys before and after the Euron attack is what Game of Thrones us about. The conspirators behind the throne that control who lives and who dies, the soft players who don't seek the actual thrones themselves but understand where real power likes like Tywin, Roose, Olenna & Littlefinger.

Dany retreat from Eurons attack also spoke volumes, she abandoned her unsullied, her advisors and her fleet. When you put Jon Snow in her position and recall is charge to save Rickon in BotB is really highlights the difference between the two Targs. The unsettled rage in Danys eyes at the end was so telling of her mindset for the next episode and her only fully loyal general Grey worm will gunhoe to the point of suicide and is of no use and Missandei last words might as well have been Burn Them All"

There was some much needed comic relief from Thormund and Pod. Bronns scene was rushed but it served a purpose to get Jaime out of Winterfell. The death of Raeghal was the shock the story runners wanted. It left a cheap after taste for me tbh but it was a quick way to even the playing field to make the next episode more hazarous and Dany more unhinged.

With all the imperfections I still enjoyed the character development and we've come to a point now where the next battle wont be some black and white as the Long Night.

With all these rushed scenes they still had time to show Tyrion and Davos in the back of the great hall talking about the Lord of Light, I kinda felt that scene hinted towards some unfinished magical aspect is still left to play out.

lawlolawl

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I hope the last shot of the series is thormond running around with ghost having fun.

I hope the series ends with Qyburn on the Iron Throne because he seems to be the only character left that isn't a complete moron.

Asus X540L

Jaysus this is bad.

Laughably bad in fact. And I'm not talking about the coffee

What a stupid waste of a dragon. They were ambushed by some ships while they're that height in the sky?
And those harpoons were laser guided?


And Misandre is just a bloody translator ffs.
Cersie "let's show them we mean business - we'll kill their translator"

And what the **** was with Dany's army outside the gates? There was like 50 soldiers.
Cersei should have just rushed opened fire and ended the whole thing.

The White Wolf

Asus X540L wrote: »

Misandre is just a bloody translator ffs.
Cersie "let's show them we mean business - we'll kill their translator".

Dany loves Missandei but of course, Cersei isn't to know that.

It's gas, if this was the books I'd laugh at Cersei stupidly and unknowingly poking the Dragon by killing what she believes to be a lowly servant of Dany's, when in actual fact she is a dear loved one and advisor.

However I'm sure show Cersei will be portrayed as having pulled yet another stroke of genius that will contribute to Dany's downfall. Bull****.

IAmTheReign

The White Wolf wrote: »

Dany loves Missandei but of course, Cersei isn't to know that.

It's gas, if this was the books I'd laugh at Cersei stupidly and unknowingly poking the Dragon by killing what she believes to be a lowly servant of Dany's, when in actual fact she is a dear loved one and advisor.

However I'm sure show Cersei will be portrayed as having pulled yet another stroke of genius that will contribute to Dany's downfall. Bull****.

Of course she would know that! Spying and information gathering have been a thing in the show since it started. It's not like Dany kept it a secret that she was close to Missandei and Cersei would obviously have been trying to gather information on what she sees as the greatest threat to the throne.

Keyzer

RopeDrink wrote: »

It's like people missed the part where it was said they would meet to deliver the terms/messages, even if just to save face. That was no army, that's an emissary unity for delivering said terms. It was explained earlier.

This scene made literally no sense. Not a shred of sense. Not one iota of sense. Lets recap for a moment...

Dani is ambushed at open sea by Euron (Stevie Wonder seen this coming). Rhaegal is taken out (in a flash) by giant crossbows mounted on ships from literally miles away - three (perhaps four) shots hit him with laser guided accuracy. They then unleash all the crossbows at Dani and the remaining dragon while she is flying directly at the crossbows and every single shot misses. The rest of Dani's fleet is destroyed by said crossbows.

The above is appalling writing. Writing so bad its actually insulting the audience. Writing so bad it assumes the audience is retarded and will eat up this crap no matter what nonsense they put out. But...

They actually go one step further in the scene where Dani, her last remaining dragon, her main advisers and some of the respawned unsullied turn up at the walls of Kings Landing to have a chat with Cersei. Who had her giant crossbows on the walls. And Archers. And presumably a huge force behind the gates. And Cersei doesn't kill them all, right there, when they are at the weakest?

The writers of this show portray themselves as geniuses when, in reality, they are nothing more than hacks cobbling together nonsensical story lines littered with inconsistency, poor writing and illogical plotlines. And starbucks coffee cups.

The show was finished when they over took the books.

Utterly ridiculous nonsense.

Mickeroo

Keyzer wrote: »

Dani is ambushed at open sea by Euron (Stevie Wonder seen this coming). Rhaegal is taken out (in a flash) by giant crossbows mounted on ships from literally miles away - three (perhaps four) shots hit him with laser guided accuracy. They then unleash all the crossbows at Dani and the remaining dragon while she is flying directly at the crossbows and every single shot misses. The rest of Dani's fleet is destroyed by said crossbows.

That was the bit that really annoyed me, she pulled out of her suicide run after they had missed when she was free to wipe out most of their fleet in one fly by....

Stone Deaf 4evr

All things considered, This episode didnt bother me much,
however, it did serve to underscore how badly the writers have mis-handled the threat of the undead. From reading the books, I genuinely thought it was going to be a world-ender of a battle, with hundreds dying from starvation and cold alone, and that the undead would ravage the land, pushing the living further and further south, until they were finally defeated in a last gasp scenario.
Even the opening funeral scene, whilst the death toll was high, you'd have to say it was a more that acceptable loss considering the threat that was faced.

At the moment, it may as well have been a scuffle outside a nightclub for all the effect its had on the sunny south, the average citizen on the street is so blissfully unaware as to be laughable,

theteal

Again I can't say I disliked it, another bunch of "but why. . . . ?" moments but I was entertained nonetheless. That being said, if this was a new program I'd most likely swerve it, it's just the already outlayed investment that keeps bringing me back.

I can't say I noticed the coffee cup, I was enjoying Dani's inner meltdown too much.

Why, oh why didn't Hollyoaks just push Cercei off the ledge when she was standing beside her??? She must have known she was doomed herself, she could have helped out a lot. Too easy???

Keyzer

Mickeroo wrote: »

That was the bit that really annoyed me, she pulled out of her suicide run after they had missed when she was free to wipe out most of their fleet in one fly by....

I know, absolutely ridiculous.

And who made the absolutely idiotic decision to travel by sea to Kings Landing when you know Cersei has Euron commanding a fleet of ships? Euron, a complete madman and expert at naval combat. Possibly the greatest Naval warrior in all of Westeros. Why would anyone do this?

And how did Dani not see his ships from miles away? She's flying on a dragon hundreds of feet in the air. She would have seen them for miles.

I'm looking forward to the last two episodes just to see how bad this gets. I predict an absolutely moronic ending.

Then hopefully GRRM finishes the books before he dies and we can get to see how this story actually ends.

super_furry

Well if nothing else, this last series has me interested in the books again.

I believed, and still believe that the show did a much better job of telling to story of A Feast for Crows which is still just a poorly written book, but Jesus they're undoing all their good work.

EP4 was the climax of some just terrible story-telling, pacing and plot points that just don't make any fecking sense. Daenerys is on top of a dragon out at sea, she has a viewing distance of hundreds of miles but can't see a big feck-off fleet hidden behind a rock? And that dragon is brought down by perfectly aimed super arrows.

Tired Gardener

At least Kings Landing defenders know to mount their artillery on the walls and not in front of the walls.

A better episode than the previous, but that set the bar soap low that it isn't hard. Episode 2 of season 8 was and remains the best so far, and by a very large margin.

Jon is the worst pet owner, not even a 'good boy's and a head rub... Gilly gets a hug, Ghost gets ghosted.

PhuckHugh

I just want it to end now it's gone so bad ... I'm not even sure Martin at his best can save the story now when he eventually releases the last book --- it's been utterly destroyed

TheIrishGrover

Not a bad episode. Still think the Jamie/Brienne relationship was a bit forced. I always thought he simply respected her as a person and a warrior. She may have loved him but it was more respect from him.

F*cking hell though. NOBODY can keep a secret. I was half waiting for Arya to say to the Hound as they trotted off screen: "C'mere, can you keep a secret......."

The instant Missandei and Grey Worm held hands you knew she was more of a gonner than a cop two weeks from retirement.

The whole teleportation is just.... just assumed now? Cersie knew she was pregnant at the conference last season. Since then Jamie has ridden north from Kings Landing, the knight's King has taken down the wall, and walked to Winterfel, they have amassed armies and had a battle. They have again sailed south, had a sea battle and lost a dragon...... And Cersie is STILL so early in her pregnancy that Euron had to get the nod from Qyburn to confirm.

And they head back to Dragonstone for a chat (Admitadly, a brilliant chat)

The Good, The Bad and The Meh:

The Good:

• Tyrion and Varys in Dragonstone. When reading the books I always thought that Varys really just wanted the strongest leader on the throne for when the walkers came. For him it wasn't personal. He just believed they were coming, knew that Robert was too week and wanted someone stronger. (Obviously the last chapter waaaay back in the last book seemed to suggest that he was a targaryan loyalist through and through but hey).
• Every scene with Thormond.... Of course.
• Bit conflicted about how they seem to be ramping up Dany's mental state. In some ways (Like the warroom scene) it's nicely done. Elsewhere it's a bit on the nose: "Oh, she be goin' CRAY-ZEEE"
• Jamie's last scene with Brienne. Fantastic acting by both.

The Bad:

• Teleportation
• Euron is still a stupid addition character. He's infinitely better than the books but pretty pointless (But then I HATED the Iron Islands and Dorne storylines)

The Meh:

• I know I'm probably in the minority but the whole "Adventures of Arya & The Hound" is smacking of fan service at this stage. I mean it's fun but c'mon. They practically freeze-framed them at the end of their scene

So liked that episode but, as with most people, I think they are just moving too fast. Would have been much better as one final 10 part season.

Mickeroo

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

All things considered, This episode didnt bother me much,
however, it did serve to underscore how badly the writers have mis-handled the threat of the undead. From reading the books, I genuinely thought it was going to be a world-ender of a battle, with hundreds dying from starvation and cold alone, and that the undead would ravage the land, pushing the living further and further south, until they were finally defeated in a last gasp scenario.
Even the opening funeral scene, whilst the death toll was high, you'd have to say it was a more that acceptable loss considering the threat that was faced.

At the moment, it may as well have been a scuffle outside a nightclub for all the effect its had on the sunny south, the average citizen on the street is so blissfully unaware as to be laughable,

I always thought that last stand against the dead would KL too. Winterfell would get overrun and the survivors would retreat south. Cersei would be forced into an alliance of sorts but her madness would win out and she'd attempt to doom everyone with a powerplay as the dead are bearing down on them.

PhuckHugh

leggo wrote: »

FFS, I watch and enjoy the episode. Then I log onto boards. My slight issues with the episode was Jon just abandoning Ghost and some ham-fisted dialogue (like spelling out a Hero's Journey). That's not being discussed and, instead, well...

awec I swear I'm not trying to pick on you, it's just every opinion you have here happens to be wrong. It's like you're actively trying to find plotholes and reaching to the point you look like you just don't understand what's happening.



Clearly going to kill Cersei because he realised it had to be done. The previous scene that was in had Sansa talk about wanting to see her execution, we're supposed to surmise that those words led to the decision he made in the next scene. If anything, I was frustrated with this for the opposite reason because they went through the motions of making it seem like he was changing sides, when it'd still be intriguing enough to have him state his mission up front. But I guess they didn't put the "volanquor" prophesy in the show so it will still be a twist to people who aren't obsessed like me. How did you not pick up on that though?



It's REALLY easy to capture people, especially untrained warriors, flailing around in the sea. They'd know Missandei. She was at the Dragon Pit meeting. They know she's potentially valuable as a hostage. She wasn't on deck because Greyworm told her to leave it, that would've hampered her time to escape while those who were could make it to shore because they could jump (like Tyrion). This is not a reach AT ALL.

Also, you realise that before you see something, you don't see it right? The scorpions were designed to kill dragons at range (i.e. before the dragons can burn them), that is their one specific purpose. It's an ambush. Euron anticipated they'd be travelling by sea, so anticipated their route, then came at them from a route that they wouldn't anticipate. As far as Dany is concerned, she's deviating from the expected tactic of storming the city as a united force, we saw her be talked out of this. But Cersei would know she doesn't want to burn people alive, she's talked in private with Tyrion remember, so she could anticipate this. Again, this is not a reach.



Genuinely confused what you see as the problem here. You've just decided to not accept this.

Bronn is a trained cut-throat who's skilled enough to be offered chests of gold up front and Riverrun. He's good at this. It's not a reach that he managed to get past the collective brain thrust that also let Arya into the castle last season ("You need better guards"), shortly after a battle that was preceded with a lot of outsiders coming in and out of the city, when a lot of the forces have been decimated. Bronn's skillset is up to that task. It's not a reach. Also, trusting Tyrion and Jaime's word has been a DISASTROUS tactic for Bronn, because they haven't given him what they promised yet (standard Lannister debt-paying strategy)! His frustration is earned, his tactic worked because he got offered something tangible at a specific time, and he's satisfied to deal with that knowing they know the consequences if they don't come through this time. None of this is an issue!



Why do people want to see conversations with information with people relaying information that we already know?! Did you need to see Sansa say "oh...okay..." or something? That is AWFUL writing. What mattered here is that Jon decided to defy Dany and tell them. Not having Bran say "Oh his dad is Rhaegar and his ma was Lyanna" isn't a plothole or inconsistency!



We saw Dothraki retreat after the initial retreat last week (remember they were running away??), it wasn't a secret that some survived. But they're totally diminished as a united force and a people. Did you want them to show every single person who retreated so you could do a head count like?! You're giving out for them not spoon-feeding you and leaving it to assume you're intelligent enough to get that seeing some Dothraki running away means "Not literally every person who was Dothraki died."

Both sides were suing for peace. Dany didn't kill Qyburn either, it's not the done thing to kill the envoy, Cersei is still operating under the pretence that she's a good queen who's protecting her people so the cold-blooded murder of an envoy (and her brother) would've risked that. Killing Tyrion would've also necessitated an immediate battle, which both wanted to avoid, hence them holding a treaty. Cersei doesn't want Dany to mount Drogon and start burning the city while she's standing on the wall, sure they have the scorpions but she'd rather not leave that to chance. She was also listening to him and considering his words, hence the tears in her eyes. If anything, killing Missandei was the flaw here, because that could've led to the same result. But it's more palatable that she kill a prisoner than an envoy because they were the terms she laid out if Dany didn't surrender.

How do you not understand ANY of this or have you just decided "Game of Thones = bad now" and, whatever they do, you're going to try spin it that way? I just don't think you like this show anymore man...

You seem to be an apologist for the show - no matter how dumb the story, you'll still defend it ... and there's a world of people online and offline that are p!ssed with how bad it's gone - it has turned into a comedy at this stage.

Tazzimus

Mickeroo wrote: »

That was the bit that really annoyed me, she pulled out of her suicide run after they had missed when she was free to wipe out most of their fleet in one fly by....

This.
They weren't using bow and arrows to shoot at her; those things take a good 40+ seconds to reload, more than enough time to make some BBQ Ironborn. Instead, she just flies off, knowing they're vulnerable while they reload.

She could have taken out her biggest threat at sea reasonably easily..

Hyzepher

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

TheIrishGrover

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

That actually did occur to me too. And I believe you may be right (It would certainly help explain the teleportation). Tyrion suggested it also.

Ironically I think the main reason for believing she is not pregnant is that I don't think they would kill a pregnant character anymore.

Sure, Rob's missus was killed but then that whole scene was brutal: Extremely shocking and violent: The multiple stabbings, the closeup of Catelyn as she slits the throat of the innocent girl and then has her own throat cut brutally. Them sewing Rob's head to his direwolf.

Now look at Jorah and Dondarion going full-on Boromir: Stabbed, yes, but not nearly as graphically as earlier seasons. Messindei seen from a distance.

I don't think they would go back to the dark old days (Of 4 years ago ) Then you had extreme violence (Remeber The Hound practically cut Arya's friend in two) and nudity and general nastiness. Now you have dragon(s?), ninja girls and thousand-year-old immortal ice zombies killed by a single stab.

Again, it sounds harsher than I intended. I did enjoy the episode but it is quite formulaic these days as it comes towards the endgame: You can just see the very traditional Fantasy tropes writ large now.

Paddy Cow

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why is everyone assuming that Cersei is pregnant? We only have her word for it.

She was told she'd have three children so either she's not pregnant, has a miscarriage or dies before the baby is born.

Paddy Cow

RopeDrink wrote: »

It's like people missed the part where it was said they would meet to deliver the terms/messages, even if just to save face. That was no army, that's an emissary unity for delivering said terms. It was explained earlier.

Call it an emissary unit all you want, they were basically sitting ducks and it is totally out of character for Cersei not to annihilate them. Cersei couldn't give two sh!ts for protocol. Remember how she ripped up the King's letter and had Ned Stark's entire entourage murdered in front of the whole court? When Cersei feels threatened she decimates her enemies. Are you forgetting that she blew up the entire sept of Baelor to get rid of the High Sparrow and Tyrells, yet suddenly she's honour bound to not kill enemies within her reach?

I honestly don't know how people defend this sort of thing. Even the explanation earlier was weak "let's meet Cersei so that when I burn KL to a crisp and everyone suffers, I'll be able to say that I tried to be peaceful first". Tyrion knows that's not how it works. He was the best hand by a mile and saved the people of KL but no one knew it and never liked him. Dany burning KL and then saying "I tried to make peace first" isn't going to wash.

It's evident that the show runners have an endgame in sight and are simply using the characters to get there and are ruining them in the process. They've had two years to get it right and a colander has less holes than this.

NomadicGray

Paddy Cow wrote: »

She was told she'd have three children so either she's not pregnant, has a miscarriage or dies before the baby is born.

This is the next plot twist, she is not the mother

2ndcoming

It's still incredibly anxious viewing but the hardest part is the need to completely ignore the books or even common sense to a large degree. If you try to deduce most characters reasons for doing anything lately, 'because there's only two episodes left' comes up as the only likely reason, which is a shame.

Dany was easy enough to convince to wait it out last season and not attack Cersei, now she can't wait one minute despite a multitude of obvious reasons she should.

Cersei has mortal enemies all over Westeros, if the intention was to lay siege to Kings Landing then why would they not send ravens everywhere to enlist the rest? "The new prince in Dorne pledges his support", oh that's nice of him to offer but we won't actually ask his name or for any of his men. Tyrell loyalists, Baratheon bannermen, Tully bannermen, the rest of the Knights of the Vale, Yara and her fleet now that they won't need to retreat to the Iron Islands to escape the dead... Why would they not bother with that? 'Because there's two episodes left'.

Also, the fact that Varys and Sansa and Tyrion have gone straight back to Season 1 style scheming and plotting about the throne a day or two after Dany has essentially saved humanity just makes them all look like treacherous villains. They deserve some kind of Night King return twist because they're never going to learn or change.

Paddy Cow

RopeDrink wrote: »

To those mentioning the Unsullied & Dothraki, you can clearly see numbers from both of those units re-entering the castle -- Dothraki (and Jorah) retreating after the initial charge, and Unsullied (who spent most of their time right at the gate to begin-with as the main shield). It is not hard to imagine at least half of each surviving, though one would be right to think that more Dothraki died - but not the Unsullied, you can clearly see about half of them being stomped over the course of that episode before going mostly off-screen.

At best I'd say 100 of each survived, and that's being generous. In the beginning we see a handful of Dothraki running past the army at Winterfell. We saw most of their swords extinguish as they died. Greyworm made the choice to sacrifice the Unsullied to save the retreat. We saw him close the trenches with the majority of them caught between the trench and undead.

Dany bought roughly 8,000 Unsullied. They've fought many times and lost a lot to the Sons of the Harpies. They seem to have a magic ability to re-spawn after every battle. Any who went into the sea after Euron's ambush should have drowned. But no. Not only did they manage to swim miles to Dragonstone wearing full armour, they also managed to save all their weapons.

I used to love Zena Warrior Princess as a kid. She got into trouble but you always knew she'd survive because she was the hero. It was formulamatic but highly entertaining. What made GOT different was that it wasn't formulamatic. It was more realistic in the sense that if you make mistakes and put yourself in dangerous situations, more than likely you paid with your life. Like Cersei said to Ned "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". The last couple of seasons have seen characters is situations which should have killed them but they walk away unscathed eg Jon Snow. Falls into freezing water, in freezing temperatures yet his undead uncle turns up in the nick of time and whisks him away. The NK raised the undead and Jon is surrounded by 100's of wights trying to kill him yet he manages to slaughter them until Drogon rocks up and BBQ's the rest.

It's lost it's edge and it's at the point where I'm not gripping my seat anymore wondering what's going to happen. I'm more gritting my teeth and saying "ffs that was dumb".

check_six

Keyzer wrote: »

I know, absolutely ridiculous.

And who made the absolutely idiotic decision to travel by sea to Kings Landing when you know Cersei has Euron commanding a fleet of ships? Euron, a complete madman and expert at naval combat. Possibly the greatest Naval warrior in all of Westeros. Why would anyone do this?

And how did Dani not see his ships from miles away? She's flying on a dragon hundreds of feet in the air. She would have seen them for miles.

Would it have made more sense if there had been, say, one or two ships with ballistae sitting in open sea, Daenerys impetuously decides to swoop in to destroy them, and then the "hidden" fleet lets loose from behind our favourite invisbility bestowing rocky outcrop? A few tweaks to the action should be able to make this sequence work.

Keyzer

check_six wrote: »

Would it have made more sense if there had been, say, one or two ships with ballistae sitting in open sea, Daenerys impetuously decides to swoop in to destroy them, and then the "hidden" fleet lets loose from behind our favourite invisbility bestowing rocky outcrop? A few tweaks to the action should be able to make this sequence work.

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

Tazzimus

Paddy Cow wrote: »

At best I'd say 100 of each survived, and that's being generous. In the beginning we see a handful of Dothraki running past the army at Winterfell. We saw most of their swords extinguish as they died. Greyworm made the choice to sacrifice the Unsullied to save the retreat. We saw him close the trenches with the majority of them caught between the trench and undead.

Dany bought roughly 8,000 Unsullied. They've fought many times and lost a lot to the Sons of the Harpies. They seem to have a magic ability to re-spawn after every battle. Any who went into the sea after Euron's ambush should have drowned. But no. Not only did they manage to swim miles to Dragonstone wearing full armour, they also managed to save all their weapons.

I used to love Zena Warrior Princess as a kid. She got into trouble but you always knew she'd survive because she was the hero. It was formulamatic but highly entertaining. What made GOT different was that it wasn't formulamatic. It was more realistic in the sense that if you make mistakes and put yourself in dangerous situations, more than likely you paid with your life. Like Cersei said to Ned "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die". The last couple of seasons have seen characters is situations which should have killed them but they walk away unscathed eg Jon Snow. Falls into freezing water, in freezing temperatures yet his undead uncle turns up in the nick of time and whisks him away. The NK raised the undead and Jon is surrounded by 100's of wights trying to kill him yet he manages to slaughter them until Drogon rocks up and BBQ's the rest.

It's lost it's edge and it's at the point where I'm not gripping my seat anymore wondering what's going to happen. I'm more gritting my teeth and saying "ffs that was dumb".

I thought Greyworm said half when asked about who had survived, which seems a bit generous considering what just happened.

Paddy Cow

Keyzer wrote: »

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

Didn't you hear? Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet is the explanation of the show runner. She forgot about the Iron Fleet. You couldn't make it up.