"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the Stark" - Spoilers post 2 fo

Paddy Cow

Tazzimus wrote: »

I thought Greyworm said half when asked about who had survived, which seems a bit generous considering what just happened.

Greyworm says whatever the writers want him to say. We all saw the Unsullied lined up outside Winterfell and they were ordered by Greyworm to hold the retreat and then he sacrificed them. There is no way half survived when they were caught between the trenches and the undead and then we saw the undead surround the trenches. They wiped out the Unsullied but Dany needs an army so we have to pretend half survived.

Keyzer

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Didn't you hear? Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet is the explanation of the show runner. She forgot about the Iron Fleet. You couldn't make it up.

At the risk of succumbing to sarcasm, is there a link to this?

Update: Ignore... found it - https://observer.com/2019/05/game-of-thrones-daenerys-details-david-benioff-db-weiss/

“Dany’s other enemies have not just been sitting still—they’ve been planning for the final battle,” Benioff said. “We saw in Season 7 that Qyburn had invented this giant, dragon-killing Scorpion. Qyburn went back to the drawing board and he made even larger, more powerful Scorpions. Dozens of them are now lining the walls of King’s Landing, and dozens more are lining the decks of the Iron Fleet.”

He continued, “While Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron’s forces, they certainly haven’t forgotten about her.”

Daenaerys forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron's forces? Not only Daenaerys but everyone else too? Jon, Varys, Tyrion et al. They all forgot about Euron's forces.

These guys are literally taking the audience for idiots now.

Liam O

Keyzer wrote: »

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

She had 2 dragons.

PhiloCypher

I completely get how overpowered the Dragons, the unsullied and Dothraki made Dany and completely understand their need to erode her strength before the final battle with Cersei. But the way they've gone about it have made an absolute mockery of the good guys.

*Out maneuvered by Jaime and lost the Tyrells.
*Out maneuvered by Euron and lost half the Greyjoy fleet along with Yara and Dorne.
*Out maneuvered by Euron again and lose the other half of the Greyjoy fleet at Casterly Rock.
*Out manoeuvred by Euron and lose a Dragon at Dragonstone.

Each of the above would be fine in isolation but together they have served to completely undermine the supposed good guys as capable leaders worthy of ruling the 7 kingdoms.

People seem to have no problem with the bad guys being tactically astute but apparently it's too much to ask that the good guys be too, you just get the "it's a Fantasy show not a military documentary" excuse. I'm not expecting to see complex military manoeuvres on the battlefield, just a hand wave, a brief scene of wooden and earthen palisades being made in the back ground of episodes 1&2, in ep 3 we'd see the Wights briefly held at the first one, the Dothraki led by Jorah sweeping back and forth trying to stem the breaches as the trebuchet rounds arc overhead. The barrier breaches, the Dothraki are overwhelmed and lose half their forces. The Wights reach the second barricade and are pelted with flaming arrows, the knights of the Vale sweep behind taking out those that make it over, before they too are overwhelmed and retreat. Next a system of arrow tip shaped trenches funnel the dead into narrow bottle necks where the unsullied and Northern forces concentrate their forces and the archers on the battlements can concentrate their fire. All of the above would serve to erode Danys forces without portraying them as complete tactical novices. As for this episode If Euron had occupied Dragonstone and placed his ballista on land you could excuse how Dany somehow managed to miss them and lose another Dragon. It all just smacks of making the good guys incompetent because the narrative requires it rather then them being out thought.

Keyzer

Liam O wrote: »

She had 2 dragons.

It's ok - Benioff was good enough to explain it to us idiots. She forgot about the Iron Fleet (see below).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahoHDU0T44I

tommy2bad

This season has felt badly written from the start. Sure it ticked a lot of boxes for fans but the problem was it felt forced and driven by the need to wind it all up. this episode is the most glaring example of having stuff happen because next weeks ep needs it to, rather than because it's a consequence of stuff that already happened. Jamie returning to KL, Bronn being Bronn, The Hound off to Clegainbole. Danni turning paranoid and Sansa sceaming like she's the reincarnation of Littlefinger. All could have been done better and made more belivable given enough time to develope but they dont have time and are hoping to get away with shortcuts as long as they add some fanfic stuff. In fairness it's not going anywhere I didn't expect the books to go but it's doing so with a lot of shortcuts that leave me feeling cheated a bit.
Biggest mistake, imnsho, was ending the Night King threat too soon. Anything that comes after that is going to feel lesser and little more than tieing up loose ends.
Oh and the acting has gone downhill, Danni, Sansa and Cercie smirking, sneering and basically gurning their way through, shows how little respect the producers have for fantasy audiences if they are willing to let this pantomime level of acting in.
Other than that...... it was fine, the episode moved stuff towards the climax which 2 episodes from the end is all we can expect.

Sleepy

The story is now so rushed it feels like it's being told by a ten year old "and then the night king comes with all his zombies and they die cos Arya sneak attacks him with the Valerian steel dagger Bran gave her... and then Danys dragon gets killed from a giant crossbow Qyburn made for Theon's pirate uncle... and then... and then... and then..."

I loved the books (yes, even Feast). I had no problem over-looking the Dothraki hordes being represented by 20 extras on horseback crossing a ridge, the direwolves only being shown when absolutely necessary, ropey CGI etc for budget purposes. Trying to conclude this epic inside 15 episodes of television, however, has been a disastrous mistake. It's rushed, the writing has gotten very sloppy and it's become about style rather than substance.

It's telling how quiet GRRM has been on his blog about the season to date. One or two obligatory posts about the return of the season and a commercial tie in with Oreos. I'd say he's stewing at how bad some of the writing has become. Obviously, had he managed to finish the books in time, he could have helped see them come to life in the series so it's his own damn fault...

It's just saddening to see a series that blew the bloody doors off television's portrayal of fantasy shows with Baelor back in season 1 finish out as such a damp squib.

awec

awec wrote: »

You are trying to make excuses for why we weren't shown one of the biggest moments of the entire show.

At no stage did I think that I needed to see it. I did not need to see their OMG faces (or Tyrion, or Varys)

jebidiah

Jaime and Tyrion were in an inn, not in Winterfell. They showed the building from the outside before the scene.

I actually thought it was the Inn at the cross roads, and were were going to see Hotpie for some reason.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

At no stage did I think that I needed to see it. I did not need to see their OMG faces (or Tyrion, or Varys)

I have quite a few issues with recent episodes and the dip in quality, but I was fully expecting the cutaway before Jon/Bran told Arya and Sansa about Jon's parentage and don't really have a problem with it. We had already seen Jon and Bran deliver this news to characters in the show and the dramatic punch has been well-used by now. Sure, it's the reaction of Arya and Sansa's we wanted to see here, but I wasn't a bit surprised with the cutaway.

They might not have shown us Arya and Sansa hearing the news about Jon because we have already seen such scenes a few times...or because there could be something deeper yet to be revealed in a future episode like the Arya/Sansa long-con with Littlefinger in Season 7. The show does love these 'Gotcha!' moments in its latter days (See: Arya stealthing viewers/the NK, Euron stealthing viewers/Rheagal, Arya/Sansa stealthing viewers/Littlefinger)

Either way, we did at least get to see how it affected their actions or how it didn't change them at all. Sansa asked Tyrion 'Why her?' in relation to Dany, so clearly Jon's news didn't change Sansa's mind about Dany or deeply affect Sansa. She suggests to Tyrion 'what if there's someone better?'...that could be Jon for all we know. From what the show has shown us so far this season with "Jon has the better claim" from various characters, plus how Tyrion then goes on to to speak with Varys and list all the qualities Jon would have as ruler, you would assume that Sansa has Jon in mind as the 'someone better' she suggested to Tyrion.

As for Arya, she leaves Winterfell for KL to presumably carry on with her kill-list to avenge the fallen Starks, and she doesn't see herself ever coming back to Winterfell IMO because she reckons it will be a suicide mission. She is pragmatic and demonstrated that by telling Jon in the Godswood that she respects what he had to do with Dany, that they needed Dany and her dragons for the war...but still she doesn't trust Dany. I imagine that because Jon finds out that through no fault of his own that he is a Targ, well pragmatic Arya will trust Jon as long as he shows loyalty to the Starks as she reminded him earlier this season before hearing about his Targ lineage. We have been shown that 'Don't forget your loyalty' scene in the 'previously on' intro for at least two episodes so far this season, and things are (unfortunately) put in there because they are relevant to the story to come.

I wasn't bothered by the cutaway in the Godswood, and I like the scene we did get with 'The Last of the Starks' in the Godswood and the various scenes with Sansa and Arya in the aftermath.

fitz

Gbear wrote: »

Their weaknesses are less a fundamental problem and more down to poor pacing and chopping up of plot threads too thinly across several books, and some needless wheel spinning. I can see that being tightened up pretty handily for TV.

Also, book 5 is incorrect. Book 6 is arguably the best in the series. It's afterwards the dawdling begins.

Yup, judicious editing will serve WOT very well.
And 100% agree, end of book 6 is probably the best part of the whole series.

I tried Malazan but it just felt pointless and impenetrable.

GTFO.
Nah, being seriously... Malazan isn't for everyone - you're certainly expected to pay attention and work things out without explanations, but the payoffs make it so worth the effort. One of the books made me so upset you I threw it across the room at one point. Was left an emotional wreck at other points, and I actually didn't read anything for at least 6 months after finishing the last book. I couldn't... Anything else I picked up felt paper thin. I re-read ASOIAF just to ease my way back into non-Erikson writing.

Give it a go, if you still think it's not for you by the end of book two, then it's definitely not. If it's started to get it's hooks in you at that stage, keep going, you won't regret it.

Nerdlingr

Absolute utter scutter ****e of an episode. I'll watch it to the end but to be honest I couldn't give a fiddler's f*ck who ends up on the throne at the end. They've ruined the show. It's one big fan service now. I could go into detail but I couldn't be arsed.

Nerdlingr

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Absolute utter scutter ****e of an episode. I'll watch it to the end but to be honest I couldn't give a fiddler's f*ck who ends up on the throne at the end. They've ruined the show. It's one big fan service now. I could go into detail but I couldn't be arsed.

Everyone I've talked to feels the same. I don't know where these people who love each episode are; I'm not meeting any of them.

Keyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

Everyone I've talked to feels the same. I don't know where these people who love each episode are; I'm not meeting any of them.

I got lashed out of it by 3 people at the weekend for my critique on EP03. I haven't even spoken to them about EP4.

I was accused of nit picking and being negative.

RobbingBandit

She could have incinerated the iron fleet with just Drogon silly Dragon Queen. I'm surprised Euron doesn't have a water dragon now, what is dead may never die.

Keyzer

Keyzer wrote: »

I got lashed out of it by 3 people at the weekend for my critique on EP03. I haven't even spoken to them about EP4.

I was accused of nit picking and being negative.

Thankfully, I only see that online. Thinking about what you're seeing is apparently ubernerd stuff now.

johnnyskeleton

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Greyworm says whatever the writers want him to say. We all saw the Unsullied lined up outside Winterfell and they were ordered by Greyworm to hold the retreat and then he sacrificed them. There is no way half survived when they were caught between the trenches and the undead and then we saw the undead surround the trenches. They wiped out the Unsullied but Dany needs an army so we have to pretend half survived.

How about the army of undead is a mindless weaponless mob which swept over them knocking them to the ground or injuring them but not killing all of then. The ones that werent killed in the onslaught were then outside their line as they stormed the castle and were regrouping to attack when the nights king was killed? This sort of thing happened a lot in medieval era battles apparently, where relatively few people died in the melee but were routed or crushed or injured.

Keyzer

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

How about the army of undead is a mindless weaponless mob which swept over them knocking them to the ground or injuring them but not killing all of then. The ones that werent killed in the onslaught were then outside their line as they stormed the castle and were regrouping to attack when the nights king was killed? This sort of thing happened a lot in medieval era battles apparently, where relatively few people died in the melee but were routed or crushed or injured.

How about were shown that for 5 seconds in episode 3? Instead of the audience having to make this stuff up themselves. Instead of anyone with half a brain figuring out this is nonsense/poor writing in a second.

Sleepy

Saw this on Reddit: a fan-made re-edit of the Rhaegal being killed that makes infinitely more sense than what we got in the last episode. Sure, it still has it's problems but it just goes to show the levels D&D are going to in order to prioritise shock value over coherant storytelling:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/blw6oa/a_more_realistic_edit_of_the_rhaegal_death_scene/

Even with the material they had already shot, they could have told a better story!

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Saw this on Reddit: a fan-made re-edit of the Rhaegal being killed that makes infinitely more sense than what we got in the last episode. Sure, it still has it's problems but it just goes to show the levels D&D are going to in order to prioritise shock value over coherant storytelling:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/blw6oa/a_more_realistic_edit_of_the_rhaegal_death_scene/

Even with the material they had already shot, they could have told a better story!

Yeah; that works so much better even if it does not excuse the fact that Euron has ambushed them again!!
This time in view of Dragonstone and the AIR!

Keyzer

Keyzer wrote: »

That would have worked - definitely makes more sense than what we were given.

Still though, they had no business being out on the open sea knowing what they know about Euron, his capabilities at sea and the amount of ships he has.

TBF they had 2 dragons that should have been enough to take out any great Naval fleet, no matter the capabilities of the captain.

But then they gave him the laser beamed giant arrows, which is the real problem imo

TerrorFirmer

It pisses me off something fierce that a simple edit using only material from the episode like that improves it tenfold.

I usually try to avoid things like that, because it gets me riled up at the sheer simplicity involved in correcting glaring issues.

Sleepy

Sleepy wrote: »

Saw this on Reddit: a fan-made re-edit of the Rhaegal being killed that makes infinitely more sense than what we got in the last episode. Sure, it still has it's problems but it just goes to show the levels D&D are going to in order to prioritise shock value over coherant storytelling:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/blw6oa/a_more_realistic_edit_of_the_rhaegal_death_scene/

Even with the material they had already shot, they could have told a better story!

Thats crazy how much better that is

Haha.. that edit is actually way better..

Blows my mind that a fan can make a better scene with only what the show provided...

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

Blows my mind that a fan can make a better scene with only what the show provided...

It puts to bed ardent supporters who say "it's all good and well criticising the show but could YOU come up with a better story?". Well actually yes. Someone with just a basic windows movie package could actually edit the footage into a much better story. Imagine what that person could have done with a budget of millions?

The White Wolf

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thats crazy how much better that is

Still shat for me. As someone said on Reddit they made those things the most bloody powerful weapons in Westeros just get a handy excuse to even the odds a bit more.

awec

The edit is better but still doesn't explain the invisible fleet. The height she was flying she would spot the ships miles away, long before they are in range of shooting her.

I don't think the scene really works on any level. If they needed to kill a dragon then killing him last week would have made more sense.

Mr Crispy

A bank of sea fog would have made things much easier to swallow (and cheaper to shoot).

Darch Nemesis

Darch Nemesis wrote: »

A bank of sea fog would have made things much easier to swallow (and cheaper to shoot).

After last week's ice fog?

The White Wolf

Darch Nemesis wrote: »

A bank of sea fog would have made things much easier to swallow (and cheaper to shoot).

You oul whooer I see what you did there.

The White Wolf

The White Wolf wrote: »

You oul whooer I see what you did there.

Where as I was blinded by the (red) mist of the crappy battle

Mr Crispy

Deleted User wrote: »

After last week's ice fog?

It doesn't have to be an impenetrable mess.

facehugger99

Finally caught up with it last night.

I can honestly say I'm glad it's finishing up in 2 episode because it's going down the toilet at a rapid rate. The writing has become a parody of itself, there's so much of the show that makes absolutely no sense, internal logic has been flung out of the window like a 9 year old child.

There was so much stupid, from the Iron Fleet 'ambush' to Bronn strolling into Winterfell, interspersed with long periods of water-threading.

It's a show that has more good episodes than bad and I will regard it very fondly, but right now I'm pissed off at the lazy writing.

But I'm sure they got a load of morons to whoop and holler in a bar - so go them.

It honestly defies belief that there are people who have read the books defending the **** that's being served up.

Ri_Nollaig

awec wrote: »

The edit is better but still doesn't explain the invisible fleet. The height she was flying she would spot the ships miles away, long before they are in range of shooting her.

I don't think the scene really works on any level. If they needed to kill a dragon then killing him last week would have made more sense.

Actually does to be fair

This solves some problems of that scene:

Dany isn't completely surprised by Eurons appearance due to her view

Rhaegal isnt killed unexpectedly by sniper shots but by the barrage of spears

Dany rushes in only before she's aware that Euron has the scorpions, she retreats quickly after

Obviously, I could have still done even better, but I only had what was given

Its unreal how just a fan made edit made that scene better nearly instantly.

Its shocking how the quality has dropped off a cliff. But I guess HBO are still making money hand over fist from this so don't really care.

Thought this was a good video summarising how we all loved this show and how it just has all gone wrong recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvRDXZqczhY

Honestly, why was there a 2 year wait between this and the previous season?
...nothing in this season has justified it yet and I have little hope the next two episodes will change my mind.

s7ryf3925pivug

Episode is rated 6.4 on IMDb. No other episode is rated under 8.