"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 4 "The Last of the S" - Spoilers post 2 fo

He looks gay as hell with that mustache..

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

He looks gay as hell with that mustache..

I was going to go with a Paedo Bear vibe. Generally I think mustaches can make men look creepy. Very few can pull it off like Tom Selleck.

uncleoswald

lawlolawl wrote: »

I don't think I've ever seen a show with so many of the actors openly ****ting on it while it is still on.

Translation - I've never actually paid attention to every little detail of a show before so now I'm obsessing over it I'm going to willfully misrepresent every little joke or comment to confirm my bias.

Shove a microphone in an actors face enough and ask them the same questions over and over and you'll be able to pluck enough quotes to make them say whatever you want.

And a stray laptop cable in season 4 isn't a big deal but a coffee cup in the last season is a surefire sign that the makers don't give a crap anymore.

MisterAnarchy

Deleted User wrote: »

He looks gay as hell with that mustache..

He looks far better with the beard and long hair.

J. Marston

Book Euron had little chance of working in the show either, in my opinion.

J. Marston

J. Marston wrote: »

Book Euron had little chance of working in the show either, in my opinion.

Show Euron isn't working either though..

threeball

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It would be less frustrating if the show immediately fell off a cliff after running out of material and we could cleanly blame the ineptitude of the writers....

But the truth is D&D did a pretty OK job with seasons 5 and 6. They were certainly not as solid as S1-4, especially in terms of dialogue - which is where the departure was most evident.

But they had their moments and were fundementally pretty sound seasons and most importantly still felt like GOT.

They wrote Battle of the Bastards and Winds of Winter, a stunning back-to-back ending to S6 so perfectly capable.

The writing in S7 and particular S8 is ridiculously sloppy and lazy even by their own standards, putting GRRM aside altogether.

I would say the last decent episode they penned was The Spoils of War in S7. Talking purely about the scripting/dialogue and not pure spectacle (eg Battle of Winterfell).

Was battle of the bastard actually that good. It was full of pretty stupid stuff,

Jon single handedly facing down a cavalry charge.

Sansa not bothering her hole to say hang back an hour or two here lads, serious reinforcements are on the way. No need to wipe out our entire army.

The arrival of the knights of the vale at exactly the right moment.

There were a few good moments but a few that made you shake your head at the stupidity too.

TerrorFirmer

uncleoswald wrote: »

Translation - I've never actually paid attention to every little detail of a show before so now I'm obsessing over it I'm going to willfully misrepresent every little joke or comment to confirm my bias.

Shove a microphone in an actors face enough and ask them the same questions over and over and you'll be able to pluck enough quotes to make them say whatever you want.

And a stray laptop cable in season 4 isn't a big deal but a coffee cup in the last season is a surefire sign that the makers don't give a crap anymore.

While I agree that there's no need to look too deeply into that particular comment, there has been similar reactions from other cast members so there does seem to be some main cast discontent about the way the show went.

As for the last point, honestly, the starbucks cup is the least of the show's worries this season and equally to be fair, it hasn't been centre of the vast majority of critical analysis.

In the vast majority of the detailed analysis of the episode in this thread (and other places too; be they discussion boards or critic reviews), the cup doesn't really even get a mention.

I thought the episode was weak, riddled with issues, inconsistency, poor writing and lazy narrative....these are the surefire signs that the showrunners have stopped caring as they once did.

I didn't even notice the cup. Nor do I care about it really.

On a list of what was wrong with the episode, the coffee cup, whilst amusing, and to some maybe part of the idea of 'death by a thousand cuts', is not in itself a huge deal.

TerrorFirmer

threeball wrote: »

Was battle of the bastard actually that good. It was full of pretty stupid stuff,

Jon single handedly facing down a cavalry charge.

Sansa not bothering her hole to say hang back an hour or two here lads, serious reinforcements are on the way. No need to wipe out our entire army.

The arrival of the knights of the vale at exactly the right moment.

There were a few good moments but a few that made you shake your head at the stupidity too.

Wouldn't dispute that, but it was all framed so much better, and with much better supporting dialogue and pacing too.

Extending plot armour to Jon Snow, as obvious as it was (and a noted shift from the merciless narrative of S1-S4), was a somewhat acceptable stretch of narrative convenience.

Very different to say, Battle of Winterfell, where literally most of the main cast, including Jon, are repeatedly placed in their own amplified 'cavalry charges' yet survive - again and again - despite outrageously overwhelmingly odds at each turn.

BoB was, a few plot conveniences aside, a far superior battle in terms of how it's executed as well.

S6 isn't perfect by any stretch, but it's nowhere near as bad as the blatant 'round peg square hole' narrative of S8 and is much sharper.

uncleoswald

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

While I agree that there's no need to look too deeply into that particular comment, there has been similar reactions from other cast members so there does seem to be some main cast discontent about the way the show went.

As for the last point, honestly, the starbucks cup is the least of the show's worries this season and equally to be fair, it hasn't been centre of the vast majority of critical analysis.

In the vast majority of the detailed analysis of the episode in this thread (and other places too; be they discussion boards or critic reviews), the cup doesn't really even get a mention.

I thought the episode was weak, riddled with issues, inconsistency, poor writing and lazy narrative....these are the surefire signs that the showrunners have stopped caring as they once did.

I didn't even notice the cup. Nor do I care about it really.

On a list of what was wrong with the episode, the coffee cup, whilst amusing, and to some maybe part of the idea of 'death by a thousand cuts', is not in itself a huge deal.

Disagree on the actors, all I've really seen is the likes of an ambiguous laugh from Dany on the red carpet or a poor jokes like the one from Jon Snow above. I've you are ignoring the thousands of interviews where they are talking about how great it is and the usual PR spiel then maybe you could read something into it.

It sounds like I generally agree with you about the decline in quality of the show, however I think the last episode was the least bad of the season so far (a low bar to be fair) and the fact it is getting such a kicking compared to equally poor or worse episodes, along with the 'hilarious' memes and obsessing over innocuous quotes and mistakes suggests that a bit of an online witch hunt has begun.

Also I can't imagine the showrunners simply "don't care" anymore, far more likely that the show just got too big, both narratively and logistically, and they lost control over it. It's like making five movies in the space of a year.

is_that_so

uncleoswald wrote: »

Also I can't imagine the showrunners simply "don't care" anymore, far more likely that the show just got too big, both narratively and logistically, and they lost control over it. It's like making five movies in the space of a year.

Has there been any explanation as to why they opted for the reduced number for these seasons given HBO apparently were happy to take the standard 10?

Yeah, them just saying 'fnck it' is the only explanation I can see..
Shallow sentimentality and cock jokes it is..

It really is a shame..
They should never be let near a camera again..

Roberto_gas

threeball wrote:

They seem like twits and have fallen out with RRM by all accounts. They got permission to use the books and were fine when it was spoon fed to them. As soon as they had to go it alone the truth of their talents was exposed and the lure of the almighty dollar to move to the next thing was a handy excuse to cut and run.

Apparently HBO had given budget to make season 8 in ten episodes but D&D decided to finish it off in 6 so they can start working on their next venture!!

uncleoswald

is_that_so wrote: »

Has there been any explanation as to why they opted for the reduced number for these seasons given HBO apparently were happy to take the standard 10?

For most shows the creatives want to have an end to write towards but the network want more seasons and more episodes. Look at Lost, it went to sh*t and the general feeling is it because the showrunners were made to drag it on and on. Look at The Walking Dead.

HBO could have gotten their way and if it was still not to people's liking we would be saying it was because they bled the show dry and kept it going too long. But now it's because the showrunners who spent years and years getting the show off the ground suddenly decided "f**k it":rolleyes:

TerrorFirmer

uncleoswald wrote: »

It sounds like I generally agree with you about the decline in quality of the show, however I think the last episode was the least bad of the season so far (a low bar to be fair) and the fact it is getting such a kicking compared to equally poor or worse episodes, along with the 'hilarious' memes and obsessing over innocuous quotes and mistakes suggests that a bit of an online witch hunt has begun.

Also I can't imagine the showrunners simply "don't care" anymore, far more likely that the show just got too big, both narratively and logistically, and they lost control over it. It's like making five movies in the space of a year.

Again, I don't think it's fair to imply people are out to actively dislike it, or find fault just for the sake of it.

Every little slip, mistake, or implication simply compounds the simple fact that S8 is just plain poor and riddled with bad writing, lazy storytelling, illogical behavior, and the rest.

In isolation, the cup, the weird farewell to ghost, the bizarre bit with the Iron Fleet, Cersei showing illogical restraint outside KL, KL itself transforming from a rich, mountainous, mediteranean city into a barren desert plain, and the rest - any of those, on their own, wouldn't be a major deal...but bring them all together?

We don't say the same of people who had serious issues with massive decline in The Walking Dead or Dexter, two shows noted for infamous drops in quality.

People are, basically, making a mockery of the show, because the show has left itself wide open to it. It's extremely unfortunate, but just simply true.

I certainly wouldn't be on here complaining just for the sake of it. I wish it were better, I wish it weren't so lazy, and such a cheap end to a fantastic show.

I recently looked back on my posts in this forum about S7, and while I was disappointed with that season, I just had a vague sense of it all being a bit rushed and surface level, but still enjoyed it...and my posts say the same thing, but they aren't overly critical.

What's wrong with S8 is a new level of low for GOT to be honest.

I also don't buy that the show got away from them in the sense that the narrative became too bloated and impossible to tie together.

The main, over-riding issue with this season is the crap scripting and dialogue - the core narrative is inherently fine to most people.

Don't get me wrong - I hate that it's rushed and even the best writers couldn't have prevented that uncomfortable 150mph feeling - but the rush, and the abysmal writing, are seperate issues.

Something can be rushed but respectable; S8 is not that. It's both rushed and poorly written, and my real beef is with the latter.

TerrorFirmer

uncleoswald wrote: »

HBO could have gotten their way and if it was still not to people's liking we would be saying it was because they bled the show dry and kept it going too long. But now it's because the showrunners who spent years and years getting the show off the ground suddenly decided "f**k it":rolleyes:

The Walking Dead is different. It's a lazy, shambling plot of a show with no end game in sight whatsoever and practically moves backwards at times.

Game of Thrones is entirely different. Until S7, it was a multi-layer, plot rich, character driven fantasy drama that was always moving towards an eventual end-game.

After 60 episodes at the end of S6, it needed more than 13 episodes to tie it all together.

No-one's saying it needed another 5 years, but at a bare minimum, it needed two more conventional seasons of 10 episodes.

S7 + E1-3 of S8 could have been S7.

E4-6 of S8 could've been a 10 episode conclusion series of S9.

D&D wrote most of S5 and S6 themselves and did a very decent job. Dialogue and scripting inferior to GRRM based seasons maybe, but still good, and still very GOT faithful in most regards.

You don't think it's remotely suspicious that they suddenly went 100mph with S7, sped up to 150mph with S8 and the quality fell off a cliff?

I mean, couldn't possibly be anything to do with their new passion project Confederate, or their involvement with Star Wars.....?

lawred2

It's not just KL that was altered... Winterfell took on a completely new look too

lawlolawl

TerrorFirmer

I think it was purely down to CGI budgets and them chosing to alter things they thought would matter least to audiences in general. Winterfell, like KL, was on rugged, hilly terrain in previous seasons....in S8, it's also on a flat, generic plain.

Previous seasons had CGI a plenty, but no major pitched battles, so it wasn't a major concern to maintain some level of consistency.

But this season, with massive clashes, probably due to the ease of showing armies in battle, they reduced them to non-descript open fields. I suppose we have to accept that despite having a huge budget by TV standards, they still pale by film standards.

Dawido

I hope Littlefinger comes back and wins the game

MisterAnarchy

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The main, over-riding issue with this season is the crap scripting and dialogue - the core narrative is inherently fine to most people.

What were the executives in HBO thinking when they read the scripts for season 8 ?

It would be pretty obvious from a quick read through that the character decision making and plot lines made absolutely no sense .
Reshoots should have been demanded.

Twenty Grand

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

What were the executives in HBO thinking when they read the scripts for season 8 ?

It would be pretty obvious from a quick read through that the character decision making and plot lines made absolutely no sense .
Reshoots should have been demanded.

Hah, not a chance. They've made their money.

s7ryf3925pivug

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

The Walking Dead is different. It's a lazy, shambling plot of a show with no end game in sight whatsoever and practically moves backwards at times.

Game of Thrones is entirely different. Until S7, it was a multi-layer, plot rich, character driven fantasy drama that was always moving towards an eventual end-game.

After 60 episodes at the end of S6, it needed more than 13 episodes to tie it all together.

No-one's saying it needed another 5 years, but at a bare minimum, it needed two more conventional seasons of 10 episodes.

S7 + E1-3 of S8 could have been S7.

E4-6 of S8 could've been a 10 episode conclusion series of S9.

D&D wrote most of S5 and S6 themselves and did a very decent job. Dialogue and scripting inferior to GRRM based seasons maybe, but still good, and still very GOT faithful in most regards.

You don't think it's remotely suspicious that they suddenly went 100mph with S7, sped up to 150mph with S8 and the quality fell off a cliff?

I mean, couldn't possibly be anything to do with their new passion project Confederate, or their involvement with Star Wars.....?

GRRM said it needs another 5 years (seasons)

TerrorFirmer

Bonnie Noisy Sawdust wrote: »

GRRM said it needs another 5 years (seasons)

Course he would. I can see why that would be the case, but that's probably not realistic from the POV of the actors involved, forgetting the showrunners.

What we needed was 2x10 seasons. Basically what we're getting, but longer, more fleshed out, better scripted and more depth.

lawlolawl

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

What were the executives in HBO thinking when they read the scripts for season 8 ?

"Eh, whatever, people will still watch it. Also, the sooner it finishes, the sooner we can get cracking on the cheapo spin-offs!"

threeball

You'd have to laugh that when Jamie rode away from KL at the end of season 7 it was starting to snow. 2 months later they're back and it's desert. Unusual weather they get. Apparently winter wasn't coming after all.

lawlolawl

threeball wrote: »

You'd have to laugh that when Jamie rode away from KL at the end of season 7 it was starting to snow. 2 months later they're back and it's desert. Unusual weather they get. Apparently winter wasn't coming after all.

It snowed a bunch off-camera.


When that snow thawed it took all of the trees, hills, etc. from outside KL away with it.


All of the characters sort of forgot about this happening.

threeball

lawlolawl wrote: »

It snowed a bunch off-camera.


When that snow thawed it took all of the trees, hills, etc. from outside KL away with it.


All of the characters sort of forgot about this happening.

Now it makes sense. Melt water must have flooded KL that's why they moved it a few km up the road. Must be higher ground.

Paddy Cow

lawlolawl wrote: »

Peter at the end sounds as convincing as Sansa talking about her beloved Joffrey :pac:

TerrorFirmer

Just rewatched "The Spoils of War" there actually. Was prompted because I was watching the episode of Troy called the same thing - "Spoils of War". Undeniably the best episode in S7, and the best D&D penned since S6 BOB/Winds of Winter back-to-back. Really terrific stuff....there's honestly no real defending how they went from that to S8.

Even seeing the raw grit of the battle scenes, the framing of it, the balance as Lannisters struggle to hold back the Dothraki, and even how Bronn operates the Ballista...compare that, in particular, to Euron "Captain Marvel" Greyjoy in S8.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

You'd have to laugh that when Jamie rode away from KL at the end of season 7 it was starting to snow. 2 months later they're back and it's desert. Unusual weather they get. Apparently winter wasn't coming after all.

Was that not just a sign that "winter is coming" the tree felling has some excuse given the need for resources (has no one ever played warcraft )

The flat nature of the surroundings is inexcusable and I'd have like a reason for desert like ground maybe you could put it down to deforestation

MisterAnarchy

Deleted User wrote: »

Was that not just a sign that "winter is coming" the tree felling has some excuse given the need for resources (has no one ever played warcraft )

The flat nature of the surroundings is inexcusable and I'd have like a reason for desert like ground maybe you could put it down to deforestation

Previous seasons Kings Landing scenes were shot in Croatia.
Its all been green screen on a former shipyard in Belfast for Season 8.
Could be cgi budget costs limiting how it looks .

lawred2

lawlolawl wrote: »

Not too much positivity there from any cast member.

Could just be clever editing but it doesn't seem that way..

Hardhome was my favourite episode. The struggle against the White Walkers.
Jon fighting for his life to kill 1 walker.
The stare down with the Knight King as he rose the dead.
No music, nothing. Just silence as they escaped on the boats. Relieved to escape but terrified of what was to come.

Back then, who knew they'd be killed off without any White Walker taking part in the battle. Never seeing the Knight King in actual combat. Never really knowing what they really wanted or were they were for thousands of years.

It really was a terrible ending for such a terrifying army.

I can forgive the coffee cups, some inconsistencies, some plot armor and things like that. But binning off the White Walkers so easily is my biggest gripe with the show.

yourdeadwright

Deleted User wrote: »

Hardhome was my favourite episode. The struggle against the White Walkers.
Jon fighting for his life to kill 1 walker.
The stare down with the Knight King as he rose the dead.
No music, nothing. Just silence as they escaped on the boats. Relieved to escape but terrified of what was to come.

Back then, who knew they'd be killed off without any White Walker taking part in the battle. Never seeing the Knight King in actual combat. Never really knowing what they really wanted or were they were for thousands of years.

It really was a terrible ending for such a terrifying army.

I can forgive the coffee cups, some inconsistencies, some plot armor and things like that. But binning off the White Walkers so easily is my biggest gripe with the show.

We know what they wanted and it was to wipe out men and the memory of men ,( hence why they where after Bran ) ,

The White Walkers where always used as a plot devices to build story arch's for the human characters ,

Without them all of character would have remained as they always where ,So so many of the actions of characters where because of white walkers,

off the top of my head, no Wildings ,no Hoder, no point in Bran , No Nights Watch, No north accepting Danny, No Jamie going North , No red witch , No arch in Hounds story , No Brotherhood , No redemption for Theon , I'm sure there is plenty more,

yourdeadwright

yourdeadwright wrote: »

We know what they wanted and it was to wipe out men and the memory of men ,( hence why they where after Bran ) ,

The White Walkers where always used as a plot devices to build story arch's for the human characters ,

Without them all of character would have remained as they always where ,So so many of the actions of characters where because of white walkers,

off the top of my head, no Wildings ,no Hoder, no point in Bran , No Nights Watch, No north accepting Danny, No Jamie going North , No red witch , No arch in Hounds story , No Brotherhood , No redemption for Theon , I'm sure there is plenty more,

But thats exactly it. They were central to so many story-lines. It would have been great to give them a fitting ending.
It felt like a bit of a cop out when they very very briefly discussed that they were just evil and wanted to wipe out humans and all memories.

Where were they for so many years? Why now? What was with the connection between the Knight King and the 3ER?

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

It really was a terrible ending for such a terrifying army.

I can forgive the coffee cups, some inconsistencies, some plot armor and things like that. But binning off the White Walkers so easily is my biggest gripe with the show.

The difficulty is that he and they were linked and there was no other ending to him that could be used.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

The difficulty is that he and they were linked and there was no other ending to him that could be used.

Would have been nice to see a white walker actually engage in combat though.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Would have been nice to see a white walker actually engage in combat though.

I thought we did in the earlier sequences of them in Season 7 beyond the wall?

Loafing Oaf

is_that_so wrote: »

I thought we did in the earlier sequences of them in Season 7 beyond the wall?

And Jon did have a big swordfight with one at Hardhome

All the more reason to see them right at winterfell, no?

Brock Turnpike

Deleted User wrote: »

All the more reason to see them right at winterfell, no?

Who should they have fought?

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

Would have been nice to see a white walker actually engage in combat though.

Deleted User wrote: »

All the more reason to see them right at winterfell, no?

They were at Winterfell. The were right at the back of the army and created an ice storm when they saw Jon on the dragon. It wouldn't make any sense for the WW's to engage in a sword fight. They learned at Hardhome that Jon has a sword that can shatter them with one touch. Why would they be dumb enough to go up against that when they can simply whip up a storm?

Tazzimus

Paddy Cow wrote: »

They were at Winterfell. The were right at the back of the army and created an ice storm when they saw Jon on the dragon. It wouldn't make any sense for the WW's to engage in a sword fight. They learned at Hardhome that Jon has a sword that can shatter them with one touch. Why would they be dumb enough to go up against that when they can simply whip up a storm?

Or send in the massive army they created instead to wear everyone down, then raise the newly killed.

The logic behind keeping the WW back was that if one went down, a chunk of the wights went with him. Better to attack with volume than risk losing large parts of your army due to one walker falling.

Markcheese

There weren't many white walkers 7 or 8?
Did Jon kill 2? One at hardhome and 1 at the frozen lake?
And why did everyone assume if you kill the King the other walkers and their wights would vanish,
If he could make multiple walkers, why didn't he just make more,? Or why did he bother with any?
If they were made from craster's baby sons shouldn't there have been more of them... (and why only Craster 's? They wiped out wildling villages, it would have been easy to take their live infants ... Anyway ....

Tazzimus

Markcheese wrote: »

There weren't many white walkers 7 or 8?
Did Jon kill 2? One at hardhome and 1 at the frozen lake?
And why did everyone assume if you kill the King the other walkers and their wights would vanish,
If he could make multiple walkers, why didn't he just make more,? Or why did he bother with any?
If they were made from craster's baby sons shouldn't there have been more of them... (and why only Craster 's? They wiped out wildling villages, it would have been easy to take their live infants ... Anyway ....

Jon killed one, maybe two, can't remember.
Sam killed one

The thought was that seeing as the wights die when their walker dies, the same would happen if the NK dies to all of them.
Of course, no one actually knew that for certain.

Markcheese

Tazzimus wrote: »

Jon killed one, maybe two, can't remember.
Sam killed one

The thought was that seeing as the wights die when their walker dies, the same would happen if the NK dies to all of them.
Of course, no one actually knew that for certain.

And of course it doesn't have to make sense... Its GOT.

Loafing Oaf

Markcheese wrote: »

And of course it doesn't have to make sense... Its GOT.

Reminds me of something Harrison Ford once said about Indiana Jones. When the character was being developed, he questioned whether an archaeologist working in warm climates would be wearing a leather jacket all the time: "Then I found out he was going to carry a whip so I realised it didn't make any sense anyway.":P