MG ZS BEV, 44kWh

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

James and Kate are selling their Tesla Model S and they are replacing it with the MG!

Is this not the second or third car they've made that claim on?

unkel

Not that I'm aware. They only put their Model S up for sale a few months ago. I'd say the will go ahead with this if they can sell their Tesla. But I feel their timing might be poor as the country is going to see a big infllux of brand new Model 3 soon, which I reckon will bring the prices of used Model S down.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Is this not the second or third car they've made that claim on?

Yeah, it's their "go to" line on their videos


To be honest, I still watch their videos only if it's a car I'm interested in, but I disregard any "opinions" they express after they tried to claim the leaf40 didnt rapidgate - without showing the screen.

charlieIRL

Are these available yet? I'm 99% certain i met a UK reg one near Sligo on saturday.

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Yeah, it's their "go to" line on their videos


To be honest, I still watch their videos only if it's a car I'm interested in, but I disregard any "opinions" they express after they tried to claim the leaf40 didnt rapidgate - without showing the screen.

Exactly. I can't remember which car, but I've definitely seen them claim before that they were going to swap their Tesla for whichever car they were reviewing at the time.

And yes they lost all credibility for me during the early days of rapidgate. Totally undermined their impartiality.

unkel

Yeah that was really bad. I remember several of us giving out hell about it at the time. Do you think they are sponsored by (some of) the EV manufacturers when they do reviews? If so that would be pretty bad

They don't do many reviews of EVs, but when they do one I usually watch it

But I wouldn't trust their impartiality like I trust that of Nyland

DrPhilG

There was definitely something fishy. I lost faith with Jonathan Porterfield for the same reasons.

He had his 40kWh Leaf for a few weeks and I asked about rapidgate, he firmly denied its existence, claimed he had no issues with multiple rapid charges.

Myself and a few others were very vocal on speakev.com about it, having driven the car and encountered it, and lo and behold Jonathan then took part in the infamous race with Kate & James and went viral with their big news that the rest of us had been saying all along.

Old diesel

I'm not intending to defend James, Kate or Jonathan here.....

BUT.......

1) if Porterfield was deliberately trying to cover up Rapidgate initially - I dont think he would even have had the infamous race in the first place. And worse - he was live tweeting and periscoping during it.

2) have never had any dealings with Jonathan Porterfield in my life - but everyone who has seems to think the sun shines out of his backside. People who bought cars off him with their hard earned.

3) Did he get it wrong in the early days - YES - but I don't believe he intentionally set out to mislead anyone. The race shows us this - he didn't need to do a race at all.

DrPhilG

To clarify, my annoyance with Porterfield was different from K&J. They seemed to have known of the issue and deliberately concealed it.

With JP I'm not accusing him of skullduggery but either way he totally dismissed the claims. Whether that was because he didn't want to believe it, or because he hadn't sufficiently tested it, doesn't matter.

He's a prominent voice for EVs in the UK and swept a huge problem under the rug. Then didn't even have the manners to put his hands up and admit he was wrong.

Old diesel

Should add that rapidgate didn't really help their reputation as reviewers - the race video was merely them catching up with what was already known which isn't great.

Are other reviewers better - yes.....

I'm not saying they are good.

But this idea that they covered up for Nissan or deliberately set out to mislead is just horse manure imo.

DrPhilG

Old diesel wrote: »

But this idea that they covered up for Nissan or deliberately set out to mislead is just horse manure imo.

So why did they deny its existence without showing evidence?

I only had the car for a day and was able to show photos of the car on its second rapid, showing a 1.5hr estimate to 80% from 20%

Proper reviewers like J&K should have been able to show mileage, percentages and stops with a second rapid being as fast as the first.

Old diesel

DrPhilG wrote: »

So why did they deny its existence without showing evidence?

I only had the car for a day and was able to show photos of the car on its second rapid, showing a 1.5hr estimate to 80% from 20%

Proper reviewers like J&K should have been able to show mileage, percentages and stops with a second rapid being as fast as the first.

To me if there was a cover up on the go - we would never havd had that infamous race at all.

Their initial pre race experience implied to them that they didn't have a 2nd charge issue.

Why they took that as reason to say the problem didn't exist i don't know.

But it's important to note that Jonathon actually BOUGHT that Leaf used for the initial test and the race.

Why you'd want to cover up a fault on a car you literally just bought is frankly beyond me but there we are.

If Jonathan and James found what we now know is rapidgate during the 370 mile test - that's the one you say they didn't show up the dash on - then as an initial discovery there are two immediate possibilities......

1) a charger is faulty - another L40 youtuber actually blamed this on his first rapidgate incident......

2) there's a flaw on the new Nissan Porterfield just BOUGHT.

We know the latter is now the case..

Cars can have design or manufacturing issues so the need to cover up here isn't apparent to me on a car that was BOUGHT from Nissan

irishgrover

I've been keeping an eye on this. There is plenty of good stuff in the car. However there are some issues that would cause some concern...

• No Climate control - air con yes, but you cannot set a specific temp
• No pre-heating - presumably becuase there is no CC - potential big impact on winter range.
• No app - there is confusion wrt the car being installed wit hthe required module or not. In some markets it has an existing app. So it could be a case of an english version of the app not being available but being relased later. Or it could be that there is hardware missings (ala ioniq)
• No reach adjustment on the steering wheel - just up and down
• Lack of clarity on battery capacity information. It may or may not give actual information on what % battery is left. If I;m going long distances I don't want to rely on the GOM. I want to see % batt left and current driving efficiency (both real time)
• No heated steering wheel - would be nice, especially considering lack of cabin pre-heat.
• Unknown efficiency
• Questionable MG quality, not specifically in terms if EV components, just generally, bodywork, rust etc

There are still plenty good stuff, especially in higher end model

• Good price
• Great tech
• Very good reviews
• Good size

k123456

Its a largely excellent car at a great price. One concern I would have, is reports of Rust on the non EV MG Zs's . Anti rust warranty is very limited

slave1

They have reinstated their reduced pricing in the UK, you can have one for £22k and up for UK folk...

https://mg.co.uk/mg-zs-electric/

unkel

Which at GBP21,995 makes it the cheapest EV for sale in the UK. Let's be honest, it's only a mediocre car but it is a bit of a bargain. Bigger, better specced yet cheaper than a Zoe!

I have said for a long time that the world needs more cheap low end EVs. Next a €15k Dacia Sandero EV with a 25kWh battery please!

charlieIRL

Haven’t Renault an EV for China only which is under €9k? Might see a few of them imported.

krissovo

charlieIRL wrote: »

Haven’t Renault an EV for China only which is under €9k? Might see a few of them imported.

Would be nice but I doubt they will ever get EU certified or even tested. Could make a nice donor for a beetle conversion....... Hmmm

unkel

charlieIRL wrote: »

Haven’t Renault an EV for China only which is under €9k? Might see a few of them imported.

Yes unbelievably cheap, but won't be conform the safety regulations of the western world. Safer than the moped it replaces for its Chinese owner though.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I have said for a long time that the world needs more cheap low end EVs. Next a €15k Dacia Sandero EV with a 25kWh battery please!

While I agree with your sentiment, would that car be a success though? It would likely have brutal range relative to whats on the market today.

It would suit loads of people I know, but I'd still wonder whether the market would actually bite at that car. I'd say you'd get the inevitable "Im not buying that when the cheaper petrol equivalent can go four times the distance"

I'd say the min battery size needs to be 35kWh usable from this point forward. How we get those down to €20k is the big issue and I've no answers for that. Its possible it will "never" happen and people have to start looking at TCO rather than RRP and tax new ICE cars out of it to bridge the gap.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

While I agree with your sentiment, would that car be a success though? It would likely have brutal range relative to whats on the market today.

It would be a tremendous success. Range is unimportant as the buyers of that car would generally do low mileage and in a year or two public charging would be getting on a par with what it is like today in the likes of the Netherlands

Imagine all those people who bought supermini diesel cars for a few k km per year in cities? I'd say gocar would replace half their fleet with cheap electric cars if they could and sharing is a huge growth market.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It would be a tremendous success. Range is unimportant as the buyers of that car would generally do low mileage and in a year or two public charging would be getting on a par with what it is like today in the likes of the Netherlands

Imagine all those people who bought supermini diesel cars for a few k km per year in cities? I'd say gocar would replace half their fleet with cheap electric cars if they could and sharing is a huge growth market.

Im not disagreeing that it would work for people who just nip around the city but I dont think that on its own would be enough to make it a success.

I dont know why you say range is unimportant. Ask anyone about EV's and its downsides and you'll hear about range! Its hugely important. Just because you and me know that you dont need 500km EV daily range doesnt mean the general public will buy into it. They dont and wont.

A 25kWh CUV would be terrible... probably worse than the L24, imo.


In any case, this MG has 44kWh and is relatively cheap so it shows that cheap EV's are possible with decent range. We need more of that. Now imagine if you took 20kWh off that MG what you'd be left with... I dont think it'd sell in large numbers.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

I dont know why you say range is unimportant. Ask anyone about EV's and its downsides and you'll hear about range! Its hugely important.

It's unimportant if you can charge up your car almost anywhere in 10 minutes. Just like a petrol car today. Nobody knows how many litres go in the tank and people don't care. As soon as the light comes on you stop at the nearest petrol station, you fill up and a few minutes later you're back on the road

It is hugely important if you own an EV in Ireland today, particularly one that can only "fast" charge on CHAdeMO with our brutal and congested public charging network

KCross

unkel wrote: »

It's unimportant if you can charge up your car almost anywhere in 10 minutes. Just like a petrol car today.

True. However, a current tech 24kWh battery wont be able to do that.... probably ever.

You'd need something like a 24kWh supercapacitor to be able to do that... certainly new tech anyway, not the current tech and new tech is years away and will be more expensive initially.

I just dont think a 24kWh Sandero is the way forward. Too many compromises with that.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

True. However, a current tech 24kWh battery wont be able to do that.... probably ever.

My 28kWh Ioniq that came out in 2016 gives a warning when battery is down to 13%. Let's say you are down to 10% by the time you hit a fast charger. The car can then charge to 50% on existing chargers in Ireland today (Ionity) in 10 minutes. QED. Already possible. Yesteryear's technology.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

My 28kWh Ioniq that came out in 2016 gives a warning when battery is down to 13%. Let's say you are down to 10% by the time you hit a fast charger. The car can then charge to 50% on existing chargers in Ireland today (Ionity) in 10 minutes. QED. Already possible.

You're a master of figure manipulation! You said "charge the car up in 10mins". Not add 37%!!


QED...Fail!


In any case I dont think any manufacturers are following your line of thought. The march is towards better range (i.e. higher capacity) not short range cheap.

unkel

50% will be more than enough to bring the average buyer of a €15k EV to their destination. If not they can charge again or charge a bit longer in the first time. My point was that a few minutes charge (without having to wait) is more than enough to keep going. I'd say most people buying a cheap petrol Dacia Sandero today, do not fill it up to the top everytime. More likely they put a tenner in or maybe twenty quid.

KCross wrote: »

In any case I dont think any manufacturers are following your line of thought. The march is towards better range (i.e. higher capacity) not short range cheap.

I'm not convinced that is what is going to happen at all. If the current emissions regime is further tightened after 2021 / 2022 and global battery production is not where it needs to be, you will find manufacturers preferring to sell 2 * 25kWh EVs rather than 1 * 50kWh EV. The two smaller capacity EVs offset twice as much CO2 as the single larger capacity EV. And we know their strategies are already heavily influenced by these emissions figures and offsets as we have discussed several times in the past few weeks.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

50% will be more than enough to bring the average buyer of a €15k EV to their destination. If not they can charge again or charge a bit longer in the first time. My point was that a few minutes charge (without having to wait) is more than enough to keep going. I'd say most people buying a cheap petrol Dacia Sandero today, do not fill it up to the top everytime. More likely they put a tenner in or maybe twenty quid.

I think you are underestimating the needs of an average buyer.

Joe public will not swap a €10k petrol Sandero that can do hundreds of km's per fill with an EV equivalent that will have brutal range when 100% charged not to mind 50% charged. Your example is laughable if you ask me.

I'm amazed you think thats the future tbh. We need range to improve big time otherwise the general public wont buy in to it.

unkel wrote: »

I'm not convinced that is what is going to happen at all. If the current emissions regime is further tightened after 2021 / 2022 and global battery production is not where it needs to be, you will find manufacturers preferring to sell 2 * 25kWh EVs rather than 1 * 50kWh EV. The two smaller capacity EVs offset twice as much CO2 as the single larger capacity EV. And we know their strategies are already heavily influenced by these emissions figures and offsets as we have discussed several times in the past few weeks.

Somewhat true except its PHEV's they will produce not BEV's further improving their emissions figures.
Two 12kWh Sandero PHEV's would make more sense than one 25kWh BEV version that is hobbled from the start.

NOTE: PHEV's gets the exact same credit as a BEV in the emissions regulations.

marcos_94

KCross wrote: »

How we get those down to €20k is the big issue and I've no answers for that. Its possible it will "never" happen and people have to start looking at TCO rather than RRP and tax new ICE cars out of it to bridge the gap.

As the market for EVs sees more manufacturers get involved, competition will help drive costs down. At the moment, the biggest cost associated with an EV is the battery packs, which are coming down in price at an astounding rate (roughly 20% decrease in cost per annum over the last 8 years):
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

KCross

marcos_94 wrote: »

As the market for EVs sees more manufacturers get involved, competition will help drive costs down. At the moment, the biggest cost associated with an EV is the battery packs, which are coming down in price at an astounding rate (roughly 20% decrease in cost per annum over the last 8 years):
https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

Indeed. However, all of the cost reductions have been eaten up by producing higher capacity batteries rather than sticking with small batteries at less cost.

e.g. a 2011 Leaf had a 24kWh battery and cost about €26k for mid range model.
A 2019 Leaf has a 40kWh battery and is much the same cost, slightly higher actually.

So, yes, the battery costs/prices have come down but the price of the cars hasnt, but range has significantly improved... which we needed.

Hopefully further cost improvements will be secured and instead of bigger batteries they will reduce price.