How safe are houses with attic conversions?

Sunrise_Sunset

Regarding fire regulations, how safe is it to use an attic conversion as a bedroom?

vkus6mt3y8zg2q

Grand unless you get trapped up there in an inferno

piplip87

Depends on the builder that carries out the work, depends on whoever paid for the conversion.

I would look up maybe some fire safety companies and see can they carry out a risk assessment.

Sleeper12

Sunrise_Sunset wrote:

Regarding fire regulations, how safe is it to use an attic conversion as a bedroom?

This requires planning permission if you want to use it as a bedroom. Part of the planning process will add how much fireproofing will be required

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This requires planning permission if you want to use it as a bedroom. Part of the planning process will add how much fireproofing will be required

I’d say a large number are put down as “storage” but used as a bedroom similar to “garden sheds” which are converted into small flats. Impossible to enforce though compared to external planning issues.

Sunrise_Sunset

Looking at a house with one already done, and one without.
We'd prefer to do our own, to ensure it's done to a good standard. It would be mine and my partner's bedroom. It does concern me a bit though regarding safety.
Unfortunately, we would absolutely need to convert as we can only afford a 2 bedroom house (or a 3 bed duplex, or a 3 bed fixer upper). Our options aren't great.

Gumbo

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This requires planning permission if you want to use it as a bedroom. Part of the planning process will add how much fireproofing will be required

Not exactly true.
It does not require planning as you can claim 41H exemption.

The Planning Act does not stipulate how the works can comply with the Building Regulations, that's a matter for the Building Control Act. The Fire Safety requirements for Loft Conversions is contained in Technical Guidance Document Part B (Fire Safety), the Planners have no legal powers in this regard.

The only thing the planners put as conditions on attic conversions is that if they cannot meet the minimum requirements for habitation then the room cannot be used for habitation purposes.

Gumbo

Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »

Regarding fire regulations, how safe is it to use an attic conversion as a bedroom?

No difference to any other bedroom, as long as the proper Building Regulations were applied and complied with at the time of construction.

Means of escape is all dependent on keeping smoke and flame out of the stair core, this is the reason for self closers on the doors and a fire door on the new bedroom. Fire alarm detection gives early warning of fire.

alternative means of escape is out the window, hence the strict requirement for the placement and position of the windows up there. While not the best form of escape, trust me, if the stair core is compromised, you'll find the willpower to get out on the roof.

Raina Tiny Therapist wrote: »

Grand unless you get trapped up there in an inferno

This is sill advice. There are plenty of safe attic conversions around.

Sunrise_Sunset

kceire wrote: »

No difference to any other bedroom, as long as the proper Building Regulations were applied and complied with at the time of construction.

Means of escape is all dependent on keeping smoke and flame out of the stair core, this is the reason for self closers on the doors and a fire door on the new bedroom. Fire alarm detection gives early warning of fire.

alternative means of escape is out the window, hence the strict requirement for the placement and position of the windows up there. While not the best form of escape, trust me, if the stair core is compromised, you'll find the willpower to get out on the roof.

If there's a fire I'd be heading straight for my kids rooms, which means back down the attic stairs, be it wrapped in a fire blanket or whatever. I know that many houses have conversions and use them for bedrooms, particularly in the estate we want to buy in, as there are a lot of 2 bedroom houses. I can't help worrying about it though.

Gumbo

Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »

If there's a fire I'd be heading straight for my kids rooms, which means back down the attic stairs, be it wrapped in a fire blanket or whatever. I know that many houses have conversions and use them for bedrooms, particularly in the estate we want to buy in, as there are a lot of 2 bedroom houses. I can't help worrying about it though.

That's where your families evacuation plan comes into play.
Make sure there's no key on the final exit.
Make sure there's smoke detection in every room (even battery operated units)
Make sure all bedroom doors and living room doors that open onto the stair core and hall are closed at night when going to bed.

Then the usual, no smoking, ashtrays left ignited. Cookers, ovens etc

whatever76

I heard somewhere that if you build an attic stairs for an extension that there is a required height between that stairs and the original stairs of house is that true ? if so what are ths issues if the height disatance is not compliant ?

Gumbo

whatever76 wrote: »

I heard somewhere that if you build an attic stairs for an extension that there is a required height between that stairs and the original stairs of house is that true ? if so what are ths issues if the height disatance is not compliant ?

Never heard of this.
Stairs are governed by Technical Guidance Document Part K.
There are minimum heights for escape purposes in Part B though.

whatever76

kceire wrote: »

Never heard of this.
Stairs are governed by Technical Guidance Document Part K.
There are minimum heights for escape purposes in Part B though.

thanks for reply - pardon my ignorance but can you point me in the direction of the above in bold so i can take a look ?

Gumbo

whatever76 wrote: »

thanks for reply - pardon my ignorance but can you point me in the direction of the above in bold so i can take a look ?

They are a free download on the Department of a Environments website.
A google will get you them very easily.

mad m

@kceire,

I know this has come up countless of times. But if an attic is converted and below the 2.4m height. That room can only be used as storage and nothing else?

Gumbo

mad m wrote: »

@kceire,

I know this has come up countless of times. But if an attic is converted and below the 2.4m height. That room can only be used as storage and nothing else?

It depends.
The 2.4 height relates to the Ventilation triangle contained in Technical Guidance Document Part F. If you can demonstrate by calculation that sufficient room ventilation can be achieved, then nothing wrong if its slightly lower that that in my opinion.

But, you also have other factors at play such as good practice for habitable rooms for natural light, size etc

The Enbalmer

I have an attic conversion with a pull down stairs.. is it expensive to get a proper set of stairs?

Gumbo

The Enbalmer wrote: »

I have an attic conversion with a pull down stairs.. is it expensive to get a proper set of stairs?

The stairs itself can be got for about €1k give or take.
Its the fitting, and associated works and repairs to fit it in.
Then the addition of self closing devices to existing doors, fire door to attic room, means of escape from the attic room and fire rated construction of the walls in the new stairs.

All possible though, just a bit of work.

jasper100

Its almost always the smoke that kills, not the flames.

A raging fire downstairs and it takes time for the smoke to trigger the upstairs smoke alarm.

Bear in mind though that you spend 8ish hours asleep. In our house the last goes to bed around 12pm and the first rises 6am. So it there is a fire there is a 1 in 4 chance we are all asleep.

In addition to that there is less risk during the night as most appliances are turned off, not in use. IE washing machine, dryer, toaster etc.

So in the unlikely event of a fire chances are there will be somebody awake to deal with it, total wipeout fires are rare in this country.

You are at far more risk every time you are driving your car, I would think!

awec

kceire wrote: »

The stairs itself can be got for about €1k give or take.
Its the fitting, and associated works and repairs to fit it in.
Then the addition of self closing devices to existing doors, fire door to attic room, means of escape from the attic room and fire rated construction of the walls in the new stairs.

All possible though, just a bit of work.

Are you saying in houses with attic conversions the doors on the first floor need to be self-closing?

antix80

Sunrise_Sunset wrote: »

Regarding fire regulations, how safe is it to use an attic conversion as a bedroom?

I got some work done on my house recently and while I was at it I got the attic floored, plastered, plumbed, electrified.. it looks class. I don't use it as a bedroom but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. I just didn't go to the expense of putting a proper stairway or windows in it.

If the house was engulfed in flames it wouldn't be the safest room due to lack of an emergency exit-not to mention the fold-down stairs would block half the hallway. But as there's a wired/interconnected smoke alarm it would mitigate some of the risk.

I think the lesson is to use a reputable builder if you're doing an attic conversion. If it's an old house in a bad state of repair and a botch job is done of an attic conversion you're looking for trouble.

Gumbo

jasper100 wrote: »

Its almost always the smoke that kills, not the flames.

True.
This is why fire doors and self closing devices keep the escape stairs clear of smoke and flame long enough for occupants to escape.

jasper100 wrote: »

A raging fire downstairs and it takes time for the smoke to trigger the upstairs smoke alarm.

Incorrect, the smoke alarm downstairs is required to be interlinked with the smoke alarm upstairs so they all go off at the same time. Either way, a single smoke alarm down stairs activated should be enough to wake a person sleeping upstairs but I personally wouldn't rely on this.

jasper100 wrote: »

Bear in mind though that you spend 8ish hours asleep. In our house the last goes to bed around 12pm and the first rises 6am. So it there is a fire there is a 1 in 4 chance we are all asleep.
In addition to that there is less risk during the night as most appliances are turned off, not in use. IE washing machine, dryer, toaster etc.
So in the unlikely event of a fire chances are there will be somebody awake to deal with it, total wipeout fires are rare in this country.
You are at far more risk every time you are driving your car, I would think!

I would disagree with all of this to be honest.
When you are in bed asleep, its the most risk for a fire. You are asleep, not alert, you don't know what room the fire is in. You may have to travel to other rooms to pick up kids.

1 in 4 chance....id like to see how you worked out that probability ratio.

awec wrote: »

Are you saying in houses with attic conversions the doors on the first floor need to be self-closing?

Yes, existing doors have to be retrofitted with self closing devices if they are part of a habitable room, so bedrooms, living rooms etc or if you are replacing the doors, then full fire door sets need to be fitted.

Gumbo

antix80 wrote: »

I got some work done on my house recently and while I was at it I got the attic floored, plastered, plumbed, electrified.. it looks class. I don't use it as a bedroom but it wouldn't be too much of a stretch. I just didn't go to the expense of putting a proper stairway or windows in it.

If the house was engulfed in flames it wouldn't be the safest room due to lack of an emergency exit-not to mention the fold-down stairs would block half the hallway. But as there's a wired/interconnected smoke alarm it would mitigate some of the risk.

I think the lesson is to use a reputable builder if you're doing an attic conversion. If it's an old house in a bad state of repair and a botch job is done of an attic conversion you're looking for trouble.

What you have is a storage space. No fire alarm mitigates the risk of the fold down stairs blocking the first floor landing and other occupants not being able to scape or hindered. It breaches every means of escape regulation out there.

jasper100

kceire wrote: »

True.
This is why fire doors and self closing devices keep the escape stairs clear of smoke and flame long enough for occupants to escape.



Incorrect, the smoke alarm downstairs is required to be interlinked with the smoke alarm upstairs so they all go off at the same time. Either way, a single smoke alarm down stairs activated should be enough to wake a person sleeping upstairs but I personally wouldn't rely on this.



I would disagree with all of this to be honest.
When you are in bed asleep, its the most risk for a fire. You are asleep, not alert, you don't know what room the fire is in. You may have to travel to other rooms to pick up kids.

1 in 4 chance....id like to see how you worked out that probability ratio.



Yes, existing doors have to be retrofitted with self closing devices if they are part of a habitable room, so bedrooms, living rooms etc or if you are replacing the doors, then full fire door sets need to be fitted.

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Didn't realise smoke connectors need to be interconnected. Maybe in modern houses where regulations have changed, but in older houses presumably just battery operated independent alarms?


As regards 1 in 4 my point is there are 24 hours in a day and only 6 of which we are all asleep. So if a fire starts there is a 3 in 4 change somebody would be awake, active and able to respond quicker.


In addition to this most appliances will be out of use during the night reducing the risk.

jasper100

kceire wrote: »

What you have is a storage space. No fire alarm mitigates the risk of the fold down stairs blocking the first floor landing and other occupants not being able to scape or hindered. It breaches every means of escape regulation out there.

I very much doubt the fold down stairs would be so wide, and the hallway so narrow, that other occupants couldn't get past it.

antix80

kceire wrote: »

What you have is a storage space. No fire alarm mitigates the risk of the fold down stairs blocking the first floor landing and other occupants not being able to scape or hindered. It breaches every means of escape regulation out there.

Yup, and I don't use it as a bedroom. But if I sold the house tomorrow I'm sure the temptation would be there for someone to use it as a bedroom without spending what's required to bring it up to standard.

antix80

jasper100 wrote: »

I very much doubt the fold down stairs would be so wide, and the hallway so narrow, that other occupants couldn't get past it.

You'd be surprised how much room it takes up in the hallway. Able-bodied adults shouldn't have a problem but carrying a child out of a smoking hallway in the dark mightn't be so easy.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

I'm thinking of buying a 2 bed house (all I can afford) but if I had 2 kids further down the line (5/10 years). I would need to convert the attic...is it possible to check if this is possible before purchasing?

Woshy

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I'm thinking of buying a 2 bed house (all I can afford) but if I had 2 kids further down the line (5/10 years). I would need to convert the attic...is it possible to check if this is possible before purchasing?

Some attic companies will give you an idea by looking at google maps and/or looking at similar houses they have worked on in the area. It's not foolproof but it will give you an idea.

We're living in a house that we will be buying shortly so I was able to get them to come in and look at our attic but before I did I sent them the address and they looked it up online and gave me a decent idea of what we could do (e.g. we knew before they came out to view the house that the roof on the house is quite low so to do the conversion properly and be able to get a proper stairs and landing up to the room it will require alterations and getting planning permission - which we're happy to do). The problem is if you need planning to do it you can't guarantee you will get it before purchasing the house. Although you can see what houses in your area have had similar done as a guide (there are three in our estate that have done it).

You can also check google maps yourself or drive around and see what houses have attic windows to give you an idea of how many neighbours have had it done.

Gumbo

jasper100 wrote: »

I very much doubt the fold down stairs would be so wide, and the hallway so narrow, that other occupants couldn't get past it.

I very much think it will.
That's based on 100's of fire based inspections on properties.

Victor

whatever76 wrote: »

I heard somewhere that if you build an attic stairs for an extension that there is a required height between that stairs and the original stairs of house is that true ? if so what are ths issues if the height disatance is not compliant ?

Do you mean horizontal distance between the top of the lower stairs and the bottom of the upper stairs? I don't think there is a specific rule, but you do need to consider the overall distance from every point in the building to final escape point.

Regarding height, you need a minimum of 2 metres clear space above any stairs. Diagram 3 here: https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C37830%2Cen.pdf

antix80 wrote: »

If the house was engulfed in flames it wouldn't be the safest room due to lack of an emergency exit-not to mention the fold-down stairs would block half the hallway. But as there's a wired/interconnected smoke alarm it would mitigate some of the risk.

Relying on a folding stairs for escape is a fools game. What happens if someone closes the stairs with someone in the attic ... and then someone leave the laundry basket or some other large object under the stairs?