DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Mr. Guappa

Unknownability wrote: »

Thanks sorry, the colour confused me.

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Me too, I would have done them marathon pace

This came up last year too I think, so I've modified the colours and wording in the plan to hopefully clear up any confusion.

Mr. Guappa

Arsenium wrote: »

Hi everyone, I’ve followed this thread for the last few years and reckoned that I would contribute to it if I ever decided to do the marathon again.

I did DCM in 2015 so I’m not a total novice. I presume this is ok (see below).

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

5K – May 2019 – 20:00,
10K Dunshaughlin 10K 44:30,
Mullingar Half 17/03 – 1:42.
DCM 2015 – 4:31. Targetted 4:20 and was on target but cramped badly near the end. Lost the group and struggled to get going again after stopping to free the cramp.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do) No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level. 4 -5 a week. Between cycling and running and swimming it could be 6 – 7. At the moment I'd be running maybe 25 miles a week.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time? 3:50 ideally. Sub 4:00.

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? 6. Boards plan

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? Sacrificing other training. Losing speed built up through training over shorter distances.

Why are you running this marathon? Running has come back onto my radar this year. I decided to step back from running and focussing more on multi sport / adventure racing / triathlon in the last few years. That got my love for running back and now I want to finally tick this marathon box and finish it happy.

Looking forward to all the information on here and all the advice on offer. 18 weeks...well 17 weeks and 5 days :-)

Thanks everyone for giving up your time to help out here.

Hello Arsenium, and welcome to the thread.

Those are some very impressive race times and suggest that, with the right training, your goal times are pretty realistic. I wouldn't worry about losing speed - many runners find that the aerobic improvements built up during a marathon training block lead to faster times at all distances post-marathon. Keep the training paces nice and easy and you'll reap the benefits in the marathon and beyond. Check out the McMillan calculator to determine appropriate training paces - you can keep towards the upper (slower) end of the ranges provided.

I'm not sure how much cycling and swimming you do, but you will possibly need to scale back a touch, especially as the training distances increase. Cross-training is an important element of the training, but so too is rest!

Mr. Guappa

Rojo wrote: »

•Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)

5k Marlay Parkrun - 21:32
10k Run in The Dark - 46:37
HM Amsterdam - 01:54:20

•Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?

No, unless I'm running too quick!!

•How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.

Cycle at least 11km per day during the week for my commute. Only one or two runs per week currently so I'm jumping up a bit with my weekly mileage on this plan.

•What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?

I'd love to just finish the bloody thing without killing myself ha. I'd be over the moon with a sub 4 finish.

•How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow?

I'm going to follow the HH novice 1 plan.

•What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?

Injury and not being able to finish.

•Why are you running this marathon?

I'd love to get one under my belt and I'd be delighted to do it in my hometown of Dublin. I think it's a huge challenge but I'd love to tick this one off.

Hi Rojo, and welcome

Those are some pretty impressive times off a low mileage base! It might be worth spending a week or two running three times per week and build up to the four days running - just to get your body gradually used to more frequent running. Your commute seems like the perfect distance to runmute - some people like to cycle in, run home, then the following day run in and cycle home. Not sure if that's an option for you though.

Mr. Guappa

KGC wrote: »

Cheers for that Mr. Guappa. Really good article. Have read lots of stuff on nutrition that seem overly complicated (or else I'm a bit slow!!!!). That kept it nice and simple.

Do people find getting into the habit of slowing down hard? Have been adding 30 - 60s/km to long runs. People give you strange looks when you tell them that your trying to slow down!!!!!

Most people find it difficult to slow down at first, and find themselves speeding up if they stop concentrating on it. Keep at it, and easy will become easier :pac:

I get the same looks from people all the time - I sometimes run at lunchtime at work and they never cease to be amazed that it takes me an hour to run 5.5 miles.

KGC wrote: »

If not using the boards is it a good idea to do strides or intervals every so often? Even just as a way of adding something different to training runs?

It's probably best to stick with what's on your chosen plan, but I was looking back over your initial posts and was wondering if you would consider the boards plan? You did mention adding extra miles to the HHN1 anyway - the boards plan has extra miles - but you'd be well able for it given your recent training base. You're asking about adding strides too, so it seems like you're halfway there already! The boards plan does have one extra run per week, but it's just a 2 or 3 mile recovery (very easy pace) run following the LSR.

Mr. Guappa

With the temperatures rising this week the effort level is going to be higher due to the heat - don't stick rigidly to a prescribed pace, everyone should be taking the paces handier to ensure that the effort remains easy.

It's also important to hydrate well throughout the day with plenty of water, and electrolytes. Now is the time to pick up some Zero tablets (or similar electrolyte product). When we sweat, we lose electrolytes, that’s why your sweat is salty. It's important to replace lost electrolytes.

Looking ahead to the longer runs at the weekend - think about how you are going to hydrate during the run. Maybe you will carry a bottle, or have a running belt that can hold a bottle, or bring €2 with you and chose a route that passes a shop. Some people chose a loop that means they will pass by their house or car a couple of times to grab a drink, or others even stash a drink somewhere on their route in advance!

Have a think about it and see what works for you. I have a running belt which holds my water bottle (amongst other things) and I bring €2 with me as well. I also bring a zero tablet with me and pop that in my water. This will become more and more important as the distances increase and the weather (hopefully) gets warmer.

positron

One of the other annoying side effects of the warm spell would be lack of quality sleep - let it from enjoying one beer too many outside, or from others doing the same and keeping you awake, or general stuffiness even with windows open.

I struggled running a simple 7k last night and I think that was due to lack of sleep I got the night before (due to bad habits rather than heat, but anyway). Funnily enough, Garmin Training Effect now shows "Unproductive", which is such a demoralizing thing to see. I am yet to google to find out what that actually means but I hope it's complaining about lack of sleep & recovery, rather than lack of speed.

py

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Looking ahead to the longer runs at the weekend - think about how you are going to hydrate during the run.

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

jackc101

py wrote: »

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

I used one on some of my prior training runs - not a specific hydration backpack but a small backpack with a 2 L platypus inside it. Went well until I took it on a 15 mile lsr and got the strapping wrong and got two bleeding nips
Never again...
So I carried a bottle / looped past the house depending on the distance

rainbow kirby

py wrote: »

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

There's always quite a few people around me (5 hrs +/- a bit) at marathons who do - the cheap Aonijie ones from Amazon are very popular as are the Decathlon ones. I wouldn't race with one but training is a different story.

Kellygirl

py wrote: »

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

I have one that I used for training for my first 2-3 marathons. I found it brilliant as used about 1.5litres with a zero tablet into it and off I’d go. I never bothered for a marathon as they are handing out water so often anywayand wouldn’t want any extra weight - it never bothered me in terms of weight when training though and all the straps were adjustable so it didn’t bounce or anything. I got more relaxed with later marathons and tended to maybe carry one or two small 250ml bottle of waters and buy another en route.

Dealerz2.0

py wrote: »

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

I used one for recent marathon in May, no issues, weight on the back or shoulders wasn't a factor. Never used one for half marathons and only used it in training for the "big" long runs- 18 miles or more.

......cleaning and drying them out after use can be a pain!

KGC

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

It's probably best to stick with what's on your chosen plan, but I was looking back over your initial posts and was wondering if you would consider the boards plan? You did mention adding extra miles to the HHN1 anyway - the boards plan has extra miles - but you'd be well able for it given your recent training base. You're asking about adding strides too, so it seems like you're halfway there already! The boards plan does have one extra run per week, but it's just a 2 or 3 mile recovery (very easy pace) run following the LSR.

I did think about trying the boards plan but was sure that some weeks I wouldnt get to do all the days. I thought best to stick to a plan that I knew I would do rather than feeling that I was missing days. I did intervals one day last week just out of curiosity and to add a bit of variety. Dont want to increase risk of injury though I will just stick to the plan from now on though.

Bananaleaf

I missed today's run. Something very upsetting happened to me on Tuesday evening and I got zero sleep Tuesday night. Most of today was spent dealing with the fallout from it and I got back home 25mins ago. Was determined to get the 4m done as I sort of wanted to be able to say that this thing didn't get in the way of my plan, so I got into my running gear at 5mins to midnight, but I just burst into tears once I got ready to leave the house.

I know it's not the end of the world but feel bad about missing a run so early in the plan. Kind of partly due to the circumstances too.

Posting here to (1) explain to mentors why I've no run logged for today and (2) this is the only place where I'm likely to be sympathised with for missing a run :pac:

On the plus side, my legs will be fresher than fresh for my club race on Friday now.

Mr. Guappa

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I missed today's run. Something very upsetting happened to me on Tuesday evening and I got zero sleep Tuesday night. Most of today was spent dealing with the fallout from it and I got back home 25mins ago. Was determined to get the 4m done as I sort of wanted to be able to say that this thing didn't get in the way of my plan, so I got into my running gear at 5mins to midnight, but I just burst into tears once I got ready to leave the house.

I know it's not the end of the world but feel bad about missing a run so early in the plan. Kind of partly due to the circumstances too.

Posting here to (1) explain to mentors why I've no run logged for today and (2) this is the only place where I'm likely to be sympathised with for missing a run :pac:

On the plus side, my legs will be fresher than fresh for my club race on Friday now.

Sorry to hear about that Bananaleaf, sounds pretty distressing. Hope all is ok now. Unforeseen events will always get in the way of a run or two, so don't worry about the missed run.

I can definitely sympathise with the feeling of missing a run - I've been on the shelf 4 days due to a badly cut foot and I'm climbing the walls Should be good to go tomorrow though.

If it helps to clear your head, two or three easy miles tomorrow with a few strides would be fine as a bit of pre-race preparation before Friday. Rest is equally fine though - whatever suits.

coogy

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I missed today's run. Something very upsetting happened to me on Tuesday evening and I got zero sleep Tuesday night. Most of today was spent dealing with the fallout from it and I got back home 25mins ago. Was determined to get the 4m done as I sort of wanted to be able to say that this thing didn't get in the way of my plan, so I got into my running gear at 5mins to midnight, but I just burst into tears once I got ready to leave the house.

I know it's not the end of the world but feel bad about missing a run so early in the plan. Kind of partly due to the circumstances too.

Posting here to (1) explain to mentors why I've no run logged for today and (2) this is the only place where I'm likely to be sympathised with for missing a run :pac:

On the plus side, my legs will be fresher than fresh for my club race on Friday now.

Hey Bananaleaf, I'm sorry to hear about what you're going through and I know how frustrating is feels when you miss a training run, especially so early on in the plan. As Mr. Guappa said, life can get in the way which can be expected from from time to time so don't beat yourself up about it!

Hopefully, you can put it all behind you once you get back out there again!

Arsenium

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Hello Arsenium, and welcome to the thread.

Those are some very impressive race times and suggest that, with the right training, your goal times are pretty realistic. I wouldn't worry about losing speed - many runners find that the aerobic improvements built up during a marathon training block lead to faster times at all distances post-marathon. Keep the training paces nice and easy and you'll reap the benefits in the marathon and beyond. Check out the McMillan calculator to determine appropriate training paces - you can keep towards the upper (slower) end of the ranges provided.

I'm not sure how much cycling and swimming you do, but you will possibly need to scale back a touch, especially as the training distances increase. Cross-training is an important element of the training, but so too is rest!

Thanks for the reply Mr Guappa!



I was hoping to maybe swap one of the rest or recovery days to maybe an easy cycle or swim, just to shake things up a bit if that's reasonable.



One thing I often wondered about, the DCHM is on the schedule of build up races (for example). Is it realistic to think that you should be able to run that half marathon (or any half) in Sept as fast as say a half you would have targetted and trained for pre marathon training? So at the end of Sept we will be most of the way through the training programme for DCM, should the DCHM be run at normal HM pace or used as a part of training. I know this is a long way out from here.



Also, those paces in the McMillan calculator seem a bit strange. For an 8:47 per mile target (3:50), it has the easy runs at 8:12 - 9:13 and long runs at 8:17 to 9:34 ???


Sorry for all the questions :-)

Singer

Arsenium wrote: »

One thing I often wondered about, the DCHM is on the schedule of build up races (for example). Is it realistic to think that you should be able to run that half marathon (or any half) in Sept as fast as say a half you would have targetted and trained for pre marathon training? So at the end of Sept we will be most of the way through the training programme for DCM, should the DCHM be run at normal HM pace or used as a part of training. I know this is a long way out from here.

Race the races. Run them as hard as you can. That'll give you the most insight as to where your fitness is at before the marathon, is a great workout and allows you to partially cash in on all that training you'll have been doing.

Mr. Guappa

Arsenium wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Mr Guappa!



I was hoping to maybe swap one of the rest or recovery days to maybe an easy cycle or swim, just to shake things up a bit if that's reasonable.



One thing I often wondered about, the DCHM is on the schedule of build up races (for example). Is it realistic to think that you should be able to run that half marathon (or any half) in Sept as fast as say a half you would have targetted and trained for pre marathon training? So at the end of Sept we will be most of the way through the training programme for DCM, should the DCHM be run at normal HM pace or used as a part of training. I know this is a long way out from here.


Also, those paces in the McMillan calculator seem a bit strange. For an 8:47 per mile target (3:50), it has the easy runs at 8:12 - 9:13 and long runs at 8:17 to 9:34 ???


Sorry for all the questions :-)

I'd keep the 5 days running, a sixth day for swim or cycle and one day of complete rest. If you wanted to add in another easy swim or cycle on occasion, you could do so on an easy running day.

We won't be tapering for the HM, and we'll be in the middle of the training block, so the legs won't be the freshest. As Singer says, race the races.

3:50 seems like a reasonable goal target for you at present, and we can round PMP to 8:45. On the excel doc containing the plans, to the side there is a legend, and it says easy runs should 45-60s/mile slower than PMP. LSR can be slower again. So easy at 9:30-9:45 and LSR at 9:45-10:00. I'd use that rule of thumb ahead of what McMillan is giving you. The easier the better.

Keep the questions coming. That goes for everyone - if you think it, ask it.

rizzee

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Keep the questions coming. That goes for everyone - if you think it, ask it.

What's the general rule if you're going to miss a day regarding making up milage etc?

I'm doing the HH plan, was planning on starting Tuesday as per the spreadsheet but got a last minute call Monday to head to the UK all day Tuesday for work, did my 5km Monday instead, had a 6 hour wait on flight tuesday evening so did a 14km walk (in shoes!) , feet were blistered and sore yesterday so rested, am I good for 5km today and tomorrow, then my 10km on Saturday or Sunday? (Sorry for the KMS I have my spreadsheet changed to them so the 3M I've rounded to 5km and so on)

Mr. Guappa

rizzee wrote: »

What's the general rule if you're going to miss a day regarding making up milage etc?

I'm doing the HH plan, was planning on starting Tuesday as per the spreadsheet but got a last minute call Monday to head to the UK all day Tuesday for work, did my 5km Monday instead, had a 6 hour wait on flight tuesday evening so did a 14km walk (in shoes!) , feet were blistered and sore yesterday so rested, am I good for 5km today and tomorrow, then my 10km on Saturday or Sunday? (Sorry for the KMS I have my spreadsheet changed to them so the 3M I've rounded to 5km and so on)

The general rule is not to chase lost mileage. But there has to be a degree if flexibility too. I'd push the 10k to Sunday, and do a 5k today and tomorrow/Saturday. That's providing the feet are ok of course - do nothing today if they are still sore.

pd79

I'm doing Clonee 10k this evening , going to take it easy as I'm not good with heat. Did 5k Tuesday and will do 10k lsr on Saturday. Looking forward to race, had horrific race at this last year , was so warm and I hadn't drank any water 🙄

rizzee

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

The general rule is not to chase lost mileage. But there has to be a degree if flexibility too. I'd push the 10k to Sunday, and do a 5k today and tomorrow/Saturday. That's providing the feet are ok of course - do nothing today if they are still sore.

Thanks a mil, I'll stick with the 5km today and tomorrow and 10km Sunday so I'll get the 4 days done anyway.

Mr. Guappa

pd79 wrote: »

I'm doing Clonee 10k this evening , going to take it easy as I'm not good with heat. Did 5k Tuesday and will do 10k lsr on Saturday. Looking forward to race, had horrific race at this last year , was so warm and I hadn't drank any water 🙄

Enjoy the race - good call to take it easy, it's so warm out!

Baby75

py wrote: »

Has/does anyone used/use a hydration pack for their half/full marathons before? Interested to hear experiences.

I do, I have a running vest I use on training runs and I used one back in 2017 when I ran DCM

I found it fine and worked no problems at all never really noticed it either on my back.

This year though I am using two small bottles 250/500ml with tailwind for my long runs.

Doc76

Hi just wondering best place price/variety-wise to get zero tabs, tailwind, isogels? I haven’t run over a half-marathon distance in ages and have only relied on water for the past few years to get me through my runs. I think Gu was the only thing readily available when I ran longer distances in the past (showing my age here!) Thanks!

passinginterest

Doc76 wrote: »

Hi just wondering best place price/variety-wise to get zero tabs, tailwind, isogels? I haven’t run over a half-marathon distance in ages and have only relied on water for the past few years to get me through my runs. I think Gu was the only thing readily available when I ran longer distances in the past (showing my age here!) Thanks!

Elevery’s seem to almost always have a buy one, get one half price on zero tabs and high5 gels. I haven’t priced around an awful lot though, their full price is probably not the cheapest.

Doc76

passinginterest wrote: »

Doc76 wrote: »

Hi just wondering best place price/variety-wise to get zero tabs, tailwind, isogels? I haven’t run over a half-marathon distance in ages and have only relied on water for the past few years to get me through my runs. I think Gu was the only thing readily available when I ran longer distances in the past (showing my age here!) Thanks!

Elevery’s seem to almost always have a buy one, get one half price on zero tabs and high5 gels. I haven’t priced around an awful lot though, their full price is probably not the cheapest.

Thanks will take a look there!

marathon19

Doc76 wrote: »

Hi just wondering best place price/variety-wise to get zero tabs, tailwind, isogels? I haven’t run over a half-marathon distance in ages and have only relied on water for the past few years to get me through my runs. I think Gu was the only thing readily available when I ran longer distances in the past (showing my age here!) Thanks!

I take the zero tabs and gels(never get to take them) in Holland and Barrett. Just remember thinking they were cheap, can remember the price

rainbow kirby

Amazon, or look direct from the manufacturer. A lot of 40% deals around.

py

Legs were tired/heavy today after the 3 back to back runs and the cycle commuting. No running/cycling today and then LSR in the morning. Hope first week is going well for everyone.