DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Doc76

So I’ve decided to sign up to the race series south dublin 10k... did anyone do it last year? What’s the course like and the parking situation (still not over missing the race series 1/2 a few years back due to the traffic debacle ) I loved the Fingal 10k course just wondering how it compares. Thanks!

Huzzah!

mister paul wrote: »

A quick question for those more experienced than I with this whole marathon thing, I'm following the meno plan after talking to people from these parts who've used it before and reckon I'll be able for it. Just starting week 2 now.

My 5k PB (May '19) is 19:44 (also ran 19:46 in the same month)

Based on the "more accurate" marathon calculator (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/) and a plan that should average 44 miles per week during marathon training, I should be able to run a 3:24 marathon. That's a pace of about 7:47 per mile.

The general consensus seems to be that other calculators are relatively accurate for every distance up to and including half-marathon but they have me running about 3:10 for the marathon (not a snowballs hope in hell of hitting that).

So my question, should my 10k, 10m and HM target paces be derived using my 5k time on the tinman calculator, or should I enter the project 538 marathon time into tinman and use that as a basis to get the other paces?

Or is there a third way of calculating them that I haven't considered?

There's a fairly big difference between working up from 5k and down from marathon (Project 538 estimate).

Distance|Project 538|Pace|Tinman|Pace
26.2|3:23:59|7:47|3:09:59|7:15
13.1|1:37:57|7:28|1:31:14|6:57
10m|1:13:19|7:19|1:08:18|6:49
10k|44:08|7:06|41:06|6:36

Hope the question makes sense to someone...

I’d be interested to hear from those who’ve done the Meno plan to see what they did. I’d a quick look at Murph D’s old log and it seems he used McMillan for a guide for the FD10 mile using his 5 mile PB. I’m not sure what his training paces were based on.

You could plug in a few of your more recent PBs into a calculator and take an average? You could also do the sessions using the HR guidance given by Meno but I appreciate that’s not for everyone.

mister paul

Huzzah! wrote: »

I’d be interested to hear from those who’ve done the Meno plan to see what they did. I’d a quick look at Murphy’s D’s old log and it seems he used McMillan for a guide for the FD10 mile using his 5 mile PB. I’m not sure what his training paces were based on.

You could plug in a few of your more recent PBs into a calculator and take an average? You could also do the sessions using the HR guidance given by Meno but I appreciate that’s not for everyone.

Thanks E.

The only races I have this year since coming back to full fitness are 5k's. I did run the GIR 10k in just over 43 on a tough, windy day, but wouldn't have said I was up to full fitness at that stage and had only started running interval sessions two week prior to it. I'll get a better idea of correct race paces after the South Dublin 10k in a few weeks.

This Wednesday's session is a progression from steady (MP +15-30 secs) to MP, HMP and 10k paces. Going from an MP of 7:47 to a McMillan HMP estimate of 6:57 seems like a huge leap within a run, which is what really sparked the question in my mind.

Running it based on HR might be an idea. I'll try to read up on Meno's HR guidance this evening.

cumminsciaran

[So I’ve decided to sign up to the race series south dublin 10k... did anyone do it last year? What’s the course like and the parking situation (still not over missing the race series 1/2 a few years back due to the traffic debacle ) I loved the Fingal 10k course just wondering how it compares. Thanks!

I enjoyed the course, not sure on parking as I used my work carpark on the day and walked but I didn't hear any complaints over it. Well organised and marked out, started in Grange castle and headed out onto the duel carriageway up towards corcaigh park, it's a slight uphill like swords. Then into the park, seems tight on Google maps but it was well strung out by that point.out of the park at the far side and down through clondakin for a water stop. Turn left onto the canal path, I found this the hardest part as it's just a long straight. Under the bridge at Grange castle and it's about 800 m to the finish then. I really enjoyed it for a change,but like you I loved the swords route, I'm local so probably a bias ��

Doc76

cumminsciaran wrote: »

[So I’ve decided to sign up to the race series south dublin 10k... did anyone do it last year? What’s the course like and the parking situation (still not over missing the race series 1/2 a few years back due to the traffic debacle ) I loved the Fingal 10k course just wondering how it compares. Thanks!

I enjoyed the course, not sure on parking as I used my work carpark on the day and walked but I didn't hear any complaints over it. Well organised and marked out, started in Grange castle and headed out onto the duel carriageway up towards corcaigh park, it's a slight uphill like swords. Then into the park, seems tight on Google maps but it was well strung out by that point.out of the park at the far side and down through clondakin for a water stop. Turn left onto the canal path, I found this the hardest part as it's just a long straight. Under the bridge at Grange castle and it's about 800 m to the finish then. I really enjoyed it for a change,but like you I loved the swords route, I'm local so probably a bias ��

Good to hear thanks!

Unknownability

I've downloaded strava now, what information do you need to join the group?

Bananaleaf

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Are you seeing this on strava? I think endurance runs are featured in Pfitzinger's Faster Road Running plans, so perhaps whoever you are looking at is following one of those plans.

Yes Mr Guappa, I saw it on Strava. I was just curious as to what was meant by the term. Is it another way of saying 'aerobic'?

Can I also ask - is the infamous 'Heartbreak Hill' at Roebuck? I'm thinking of making next weeks Thursday 4mile the Clonskeagh - Merrion section. Is that section 'runnable' when the roads haven't been closed off and it's business as usual?

Does anyone know if there are any sections of the DCM route that you just couldn't run safely outside of race day?

Thank you

Doc76

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yes Mr Guappa, I saw it on Strava. I was just curious as to what was meant by the term. Is it another way of saying 'aerobic'?

Can I also ask - is the infamous 'Heartbreak Hill' at Roebuck? I'm thinking of making next weeks Thursday 4mile the Clonskeagh - Merrion section. Is that section 'runnable' when the roads haven't been closed off and it's business as usual?

Does anyone know if there are any sections of the DCM route that you just couldn't run safely outside of race day?

Thank you

That area is runnable but it will be stop and go with traffic at certain points as it’s a fairly congested area but the footpaths are wide! If you go up clonskeagh rd to Roebuck Rd and down fosters ave onto the stillorgan rd I usually cross the N11 at the pedestrian bridge by RTE going towards Vincent’s so I’m not stuck waiting for the pedestrian lights for too long.

Mr. Guappa

Unknownability wrote: »

I've downloaded strava now, what information do you need to join the group?

https://www.strava.com/clubs/523351 - just apply there to join and drop me a PM with your Strava name.

Mr. Guappa

cumminsciaran wrote: »

Late to the party so hope its ok posting this now?

•Have you raced before?
I have done various race distances mainly 5Km and 10Km (Raheny 5mile is my favourite) and I completed the DCM 1/2 marathon last year, my longest race but I have completed this distance during training a few times.
Recent PBs are as follows 5Km 20:58 2018 (21:16 May19)
10Km 46:54 2018
1/2 Marathon 01:47:18(Date and distance please!)

•Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
No
•I'm training anywhere between 2 and 5 times a week. I'm working shift and find it very hard on nights to get motivated to do anything. I run anything from 3 miles to 10 miles at present at varied paces. Tempos are usually 3 to 5 miles @ 7:30-8:00 Min/Mile, LSR done @ 8:30-9:00 Min/Mile, Hills done at 6 Min/Mile and 400s @ 1 min:20secs. Cross training is non existent, and on my long weeks working motivation is very low. I think I could be preforming a lot better than I am with the right mindset.
• I would love to hit 3:30:00 but realistically I'm probably looking at 4 hours or sub 4, third goal if all goes horribly wrong is to just finish.
•Realistically 4 days but I can push that to 5 on my short weeks if not six and then 3 on my long week working. Looking at the Intermediate plan so far but as I have never tackled this sort of training it is very hard to make your mind up as not every plan will suit everyone.
•My biggest fear is not finishing. Or making a bags of my training and feeling like I could have given/done more
•I used to follow my dad around the road running circuit when we were kids and after giving up athletics in my early teens I though now was as good a time as any to get back into it and do some of the races my dad did

Welcome along cumminsciaran, it's never too late to get in on the act over here!

I think 4 hours seems like a realistic target for you, with the right training. You are running all your runs far too fast - I'd recommend something like 10:00min/mile for easy runs and slightly slower for LSR.

Take a look at the boards plan here and see what you think. I work shift (a mix of days and nights) and this time last year I couldn't dream that I'd squeeze in a run while in the middle of a set of night shifts, but once I tried it I found that I actually really enjoy it - it helps me get around the general fog that descends when I'm on nights.

Mr. Guappa

kemcloughlin wrote: »

Wondering if you can help answer wondering thoughts... I am following the DCM advanced plan... this week it’s

Monday rest
Tuesday 4-6 miles
Weds 4-6 miles + 5x50 strides
Thursday 4-6 miles
Friday rest
Saturday 4 miles
Sunday 8-10 miles

The problem is - I have booked a sports deep tissue massage for Friday night and on Saturday I have the Roscommon 10 mile race.

Questions: How best should I rejig my week? Is it ok to proceed with the massage the night before the 10 miler? I am guessing I just swop Sat and Sun around? And I know you are going to tell me that Roscommon should be done 1 min per mile slower than PMP?

Hi kemcloughlin!

I have a couple of general observations based on your posts so far and your Strava history:

You are running far too fast on ALL your runs, you can afford to take it much, much easier. You are also racing far too regularly - the marathon is a goal that you need to fully commit to. Do you have many more races planned after the weekend?

I also worry that you may have been overly ambitious with your choice of plan. It has a lot of miles for someone relatively new to running - would you consider taking a look at the two plans in the first post if this thread? Both have less miles than the plan you are following.

As regards your question on the sports massage, KSU posted this on the subject last week:

To be honest you can schedule a massage at any stage however if the body isn't used to it it can take up to 48-72 hours for the legs to come back to life (not sore per say just feeling fairly flat) something to note if you don't get them too often and are planning on getting them of a race week.

Best of luck with the training - you've come such a long way in the past few months. Train smart (and easy) between now and DCM and you'll have a day to cherish.

Singer

mister paul wrote: »

A quick question for those more experienced than I with this whole marathon thing

...

Hope the question makes sense to someone...

3:24 sounds reasonable for now as your MP, factoring in general novice-ness and endurance being a minor weakness. From then I'd apply a sliding scale of paces down to your relatively strong 5k time, so something like:

MP: 7:45
Tempo: 7:05
10k: 6:50
5k: 6:20

TillyDcm

Week 1 report:
Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
- Yes, week 1 of the HH plan fully complete!

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?
Monday 3 miles @ avg 11:11/mi
Tuesday 3 miles @ avg 11:06/mi
Wednesday 3 miles @ avg 10:38/mi
Saturday 6 miles (5k + parkrun) @ avg 10:38/mi
Sunday 30 minute leisurely cycle

I can see that my LSR wasn't slow enough, as my shorter runs were at a slower pace. Should I slow my long runs down significantly, or should I speed up my shorter runs?
Any advice is much appreciated.
Thank you.

Soulsun

would regular legs massage be of any benefit?

Fraggle07

Week 1:
Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
-Yes, week 1 complete (didn't do any rec runs though)

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?
Did 3rd one too fast. Targeting 10:30 - 10:40.
LSR needs to be slower. Will try do 11:15 this week.
Any feedback welcome if these times aren't hitting the mark.


For week 2 in Boards plan what is w/u and c/d ?

The Black Oil

Fraggle07 wrote: »

For week 2 in Boards plan what is w/u and c/d ?

Warm up and cool down.

Fraggle07

The Black Oil wrote: »

Warm up and cool down.

Thanks!

ReeReeG

Soulsun wrote:

would regular legs massage be of any benefit?

Up to yourself really. Some people get them once a month, others never! If you've niggles at all, then might be no harm to go for one but otherwise no need for one right now.
Personally I get them a fair bit but really because one of my besties is a physio and I get a nice mates rate

rizzee

Week 2 HH, didn't want a rest today so got out for a nice easy 6km in the sunset. Great evening for a run! Really enjoying it lately (probably wont be saying that in a few weeks ).

kemcloughlin

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Hi kemcloughlin!

I have a couple of general observations based on your posts so far and your Strava history:

You are running far too fast on ALL your runs, you can afford to take it much, much easier. You are also racing far too regularly - the marathon is a goal that you need to fully commit to. Do you have many more races planned after the weekend?

I also worry that you may have been overly ambitious with your choice of plan. It has a lot of miles for someone relatively new to running - would you consider taking a look at the two plans in the first post if this thread? Both have less miles than the plan you are following.

Mr Guappa, thank you for investing time in us! This running too fast things makes me smile - as everyone is faster than me - but I understand the benefit of running slow, having read the posts. The race thing is an addiction I have developed - trying to prove to myself I am getting better - but as you say my goal now as to be DCM and I tear around the park in the winter.

I am confused though. I have looked at the different prediction time pages and every page I go to is different - some times by an hour. So its impossible for me to know what I am supposed to be aiming for pace wise. Is a sub 5 hour marathon realistic for someone with a 5K time of 31:31 and a 10K time of 1:05:33 or am I fooling myself?

I think I will go with the HHN1 plan from now on - but I need to be able to work out the paces for the LSR and the Easy ones. confused? very.

clickhere

Week 1 Report. I decided to give the Boards plan a go after your advice Mr Guappa. I have done all the runs in the plan with a few extra kilometers. I am enjoying doing the slow runs and know I need to slow it down more. I'm away the last 2 weeks of July and will do my best to get as many runs in as possible. The longer ones might be a bit difficult in the heat. I am only entered in the Rock and roll half marathon in August. If you think I should enter some others let me know and I will. Thanks to yourself and your wonderful team for all the advice so far. It's only 1 week in and It's like a family already. I'll take all your advice and be as blunt as you want. Thanks.

Mr. Guappa

TillyDcm wrote: »

Week 1 report:
Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
- Yes, week 1 of the HH plan fully complete!

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?
Monday 3 miles @ avg 11:11/mi
Tuesday 3 miles @ avg 11:06/mi
Wednesday 3 miles @ avg 10:38/mi
Saturday 6 miles (5k + parkrun) @ avg 10:38/mi
Sunday 30 minute leisurely cycle

I can see that my LSR wasn't slow enough, as my shorter runs were at a slower pace. Should I slow my long runs down significantly, or should I speed up my shorter runs?
Any advice is much appreciated.
Thank you.

Hi Tilly.. that's a good first week, well done. To be honest, all of your runs can be slower. A 4:50 marathon would see you running at an average pace of 11:00 mins/mile. You can keep easy pace at 11:45-12:00 per mile.

ligerdub

Doc76 wrote: »

So I’ve decided to sign up to the race series south dublin 10k... did anyone do it last year? What’s the course like and the parking situation (still not over missing the race series 1/2 a few years back due to the traffic debacle ) I loved the Fingal 10k course just wondering how it compares. Thanks!

I did it last year, it was a great race in my opinion. It's a very flat track and has a decent bit of support in the village. The run goes down the dual carriageway and through Corkagh park and goes down the canal after going through Clondalkin. For the most part the road surface is very even and there's a good bit of room for runners to spread out without needing to zig-zag around swathes of runners at the start. The narrowest sections tend to be well into the race.

There is plenty of parking and it's very well organised. There's going to be plenty of cars there though so you might have some slight delays when you finish.

Having said that I left fairly sharpish after I finished the race and had pretty much no problems with traffic.

ReeReeG

clickhere wrote:

Week 1 Report. I decided to give the Boards plan a go after your advice Mr Guappa. I have done all the runs in the plan with a few extra kilometers. I am enjoying doing the slow runs and know I need to slow it down more. I'm away the last 2 weeks of July and will do my best to get as many runs in as possible. The longer ones might be a bit difficult in the heat. I am only entered in the Rock and roll half marathon in August. If you think I should enter some others let me know and I will. Thanks to yourself and your wonderful team for all the advice so far. It's only 1 week in and It's like a family already. I'll take all your advice and be as blunt as you want. Thanks.

No need to enter any more if you don't feel like racing more than that. The race entries can add up too! A half marathon will be good to give you a sense of where you're at and an idea of a target time for DCM.

Doc76

ligerdub wrote: »

I did it last year, it was a great race in my opinion. It's a very flat track and has a decent bit of support in the village. The run goes down the dual carriageway and through Corkagh park and goes down the canal after going through Clondalkin. For the most part the road surface is very even and there's a good bit of room for runners to spread out without needing to zig-zag around swathes of runners at the start. The narrowest sections tend to be well into the race.

There is plenty of parking and it's very well organised. There's going to be plenty of cars there though so you might have some slight delays when you finish.

Having said that I left fairly sharpish after I finished the race and had pretty much no problems with traffic.

Looking forward to it now! Thanks.

Mr. Guappa

Fraggle07 wrote: »

Week 1:
Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
-Yes, week 1 complete (didn't do any rec runs though)

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?
Did 3rd one too fast. Targeting 10:30 - 10:40.
LSR needs to be slower. Will try do 11:15 this week.
Any feedback welcome if these times aren't hitting the mark.


For week 2 in Boards plan what is w/u and c/d ?

I would slow the easy runs down to 11:30/mi, and the long runs a touch easier again.

ariana`

kemcloughlin wrote: »

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Hi kemcloughlin!

I have a couple of general observations based on your posts so far and your Strava history:

You are running far too fast on ALL your runs, you can afford to take it much, much easier. You are also racing far too regularly - the marathon is a goal that you need to fully commit to. Do you have many more races planned after the weekend?

I also worry that you may have been overly ambitious with your choice of plan. It has a lot of miles for someone relatively new to running - would you consider taking a look at the two plans in the first post if this thread? Both have less miles than the plan you are following.

Mr Guappa, thank you for investing time in us! This running too fast things makes me smile - as everyone is faster than me - but I understand the benefit of running slow, having read the posts. The race thing is an addiction I have developed - trying to prove to myself I am getting better - but as you say my goal now as to be DCM and I tear around the park in the winter.

I am confused though. I have looked at the different prediction time pages and every page I go to is different - some times by an hour. So its impossible for me to know what I am supposed to be aiming for pace wise. Is a sub 5 hour marathon realistic for someone with a 5K time of 31:31 and a 10K time of 1:05:33 or am I fooling myself?

I think I will go with the HHN1 plan from now on - but I need to be able to work out the paces for the LSR and the Easy ones. confused? very.

Instead of worrying about a finishing time you'd be better off to train off your current fitness for now. Plug your most recent time into the McMillan Calculator to get your LSR and easy pace for training and take it from there. You don't need to pin down a target time until much later on when you're starting to think about how to pace your race.

Bananaleaf

Quick question on PMP calculation.

2 weeks ago I got a predicted time of 4:48 based on a 10k race from Feb and a half marathon from March.

I reviewed it yesterday after my 5km race from Friday and kept the half marathon time (as I thought it is prob a better indicator, it being a longer race) and I got 4:46.

I know it's only 2mins, but still ... yahoo!!

Juat wondering two things:

1. Is it better to use longer races to calculate marathon time, ie: the 10km and half rather than the 5k and half as I'll obviously never sustain my 5km effort in the marathon?

2. My plan is to review my PMP after every race. Is that the right idea?

Thank you

aquinn

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Quick question on PMP calculation.

2 weeks ago I got a predicted time of 4:48 based on a 10k race from Feb and a half marathon from March.

I reviewed it yesterday after my 5km race from Friday and kept the half marathon time (as I thought it is prob a better indicator, it being a longer race) and I got 4:46.

I know it's only 2mins, but still ... yahoo!!

Juat wondering two things:

1. Is it better to use longer races to calculate marathon time, ie: the 10km and half rather than the 5k and half as I'll obviously never sustain my 5km effort in the marathon?

2. My plan is to review my PMP after every race. Is that the right idea?

Thank you

Yes, I would use 10 m - Half for calculating paces as 5km is a good indicator but as you train and follow the plan it will build your endurance and so if you're giving the race series a lash, as that's what they are there for, I would adjust times accordingly.

Not sure what happenes with a bad race result, ignore a move on? Yes.

passinginterest

Looking for a bit of advice, or reassurance I suppose. Clontarf half is on Saturday, I had been following a plan specifically for it, but then opted to take a bit of a break and switch to DCM plan instead. Plan now is to run it as a relatively quick training run. I think I’ll aim to run with the 2hour pace group. If I was racing it I’d be aiming for 1.47 I think, so 2 seems like reasonable compromise. If it feels like too much effort I won’t have a problem slowing down. 2 hour pace would be 9.09/mile, and I’ve got a pretty decent base built up. It’s within the lsr pace from McMillan (8:21-9:38) based on my 5k (I used 22.20 which is actually a bit slower). I do usually run my long runs a bit slower though. I think running with the group will help with effort levels and it’s a very flat course so I’m thinking the benefits could outweigh the possibility of working a bit harder than normal and maybe needing a bit more recovery? I feel like if I can run a comfortable 2hr half at this stage it’ll be a good confidence boost for the rest of training. Any views welcome!