DCM 2019 - Mentored Novices Thread

Bananaleaf

I know that last summer was even hotter than this summer. Did the mentors find that training in the heat prepared them any better for the marathon or is it all just the same?

Huzzah!

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I know that last summer was even hotter than this summer. Did the mentors find that training in the heat prepared them any better for the marathon or is it all just the same?

I quite enjoy training in warm weather, provided the humidity is low, and I think a lot of last summer was that rare combination. It did rain for a number of my long runs, though.

This summer, the humidity is quite high, which can happen for DCM, too, even though it's in October, so take confidence that training in all types of weather will prepare you well for the day itself.

Bananaleaf

Huzzah! wrote: »

I quite enjoy training in warm weather, provided the humidity is low, and I think a lot of last summer was that rare combination. It did rain for a number of my long runs, though.

This summer, the humidity is quite high, which can happen for DCM, too, even though it's in October, so take confidence that training in all types of weather will prepare you well for the day itself.

Thank you Huzzah!

Karlos80

Mr. Guappa,
Thank for the reply. I really had no idea how to calculate my MP, even though I have times for 5k and 10k races. How do I do that for future reference? I don't just pick a target that I think is achievable or is there a formula?
I'm really trying to slow it down the last few Runs, and will take the PMP run away from before my long run, all good advice.

Mr. Guappa

Karlos80 wrote: »

Mr. Guappa,
Thank for the reply. I really had no idea how to calculate my MP, even though I have times for 5k and 10k races. How do I do that for future reference? I don't just pick a target that I think is achievable or is there a formula?
I'm really trying to slow it down the last few Runs, and will take the PMP run away from before my long run, all good advice.

There are various calculators out there, such as McMillan or Tinman (runfastcoach), however, both of those tend to be wildly optimistic for marathoners at our level.

This one seems to give a better estimate of what we might expect: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/marathon-calculator/
Or at least give us a good guideline as to what paces to train at for the moment.

You'll read plenty here about the benefits of easy running - it's the key to marathon training. Lots and lots of easy miles will develop our aerobic capacity, which will be a key component of completing the 26.2 miles without falling to bits.

py

Quick question to anyone who's been running these past few days in the heat, have you seen an elevated HR at all? My pace is slower than 2 weeks ago on my midweek runs though my HR has increased ~10 bpm but the only 2 factors that have changed are (1) the accumulative fatigue and (2) increased in outdoor temperature. Only other thing I can think that it could be is that I'm coming down with a cold.

MY BAD

py wrote: »

Quick question to anyone who's been running these past few days in the heat, have you seen an elevated HR at all? My pace is slower than 2 weeks ago on my midweek runs though my HR has increased ~10 bpm but the only 2 factors that have changed are (1) the accumulative fatigue and (2) increased in outdoor temperature. Only other thing I can think that it could be is that I'm coming down with a cold.

The humidity and heat will bring your heart rate up

MY BAD

You'd often hear humidity been called a poor man's altitude training

Comic Book Guy

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote: »

The humidity and heat will bring your heart rate up

I think its something like the increased heat & humidity increase the stress on the body so it follows on that effort involved in a run is raised bringing about the increase in your heart rate.

Irishder

If anyone is interested in stats some good stuff here on the marathon:

https://medium.com/running-with-data/the-dublin-city-marathon-2017-a53fc1f7d572

Huzzah!

py wrote: »

Quick question to anyone who's been running these past few days in the heat, have you seen an elevated HR at all? My pace is slower than 2 weeks ago on my midweek runs though my HR has increased ~10 bpm but the only 2 factors that have changed are (1) the accumulative fatigue and (2) increased in outdoor temperature. Only other thing I can think that it could be is that I'm coming down with a cold.

Effort is king, so if it feels more difficult than usual, feel free to slow down.

py

Irishder wrote: »

If anyone is interested in stats some good stuff here on the marathon:

https://medium.com/running-with-data/the-dublin-city-marathon-2017-a53fc1f7d572

This has some great information in it. The mention of the 20Mile/34Km wall within the article saw me go down a rabbit hole of checking random athletes time on the DCM strava segment. This was probably the wrong thing to do as I don't know how much training they did, how their day was going, did they fuel/hydrate/dress appropriately... still though, that wall! :P

KSU

py wrote: »

This has some great information in it. The mention of the 20Mile/34Km wall within the article saw me go down a rabbit hole of checking random athletes time on the DCM strava segment. This was probably the wrong thing to do as I don't know how much training they did, how their day was going, did they fuel/hydrate/dress appropriately... still though, that wall! :P

Some advice on Dublin marathon. While the 20 mile wall is usually apparent miles 2-11 are usually where your marathon is made or broke IMO. You will not hear people say this because they are fresh and it doesn't feel too bad but here is where you need to have the discipline to not get caught up with the occasion as you won't realise it at the time but it is where you are gonna put the initial sting into your legs and that will only get worse as the fatigue grows.

skyblue46

py wrote: »

This has some great information in it. The mention of the 20Mile/34Km wall within the article saw me go down a rabbit hole of checking random athletes time on the DCM strava segment. This was probably the wrong thing to do as I don't know how much training they did, how their day was going, did they fuel/hydrate/dress appropriately... still though, that wall! :P

I wouldn't be over stressing about the Wall. If you train well over the next number of weeks and set off at a sensible and appropriate pace until you get to the top of St Laurence's Road you'll be in great shape later on to manage the late miles. You'll get plenty of advice on pacing strategy from the mentors in due course. The Wall doesn't claim everybody as a victim! There isn't an inevitability about it. My fastest mile last year was mile 24, second fastest was mile 21.

Fusitive

Comic Book Guy wrote: »

I think its something like the increased heat & humidity increase the stress on the body so it follows on that effort involved in a run is raised bringing about the increase in your heart rate.

Ideally, you should run slower in the heat and humidity as you don't want the stress to be too high. There is a reason that they are called easy runs for instance as intensity is a more accurate measure than pace but that's probably best left for another day. If you feel fatigued, it's scorching out or anything like that, you should probably run slower.

The way training in the heat works is through heat acclimitisation, when you spend time in the heat, your body has to adapt to keep your core tempreture lower so your blood plasma(the liquid part of your blood) has to increase to compensate for the extra sweating needed to cool yourself so blood volume increases. What this does is keeps your core temp low in the presence of heat stress. The benefit of this is that when you go to race in cooler temps, you have a more efficient internal thermostat for coping with the heat you produce when running(you are able to keep your core temp lower under higher stress)I.e you sweat earlier because your blood has more liquid content to get to the skin, your blood has more volume so more blood is circulated faster and easier to the muscles and you run faster because of it.

KSU

skyblue46 wrote: »

I wouldn't be over stressing about the Wall. If you train well over the next number of weeks and set off at a sensible and appropriate pace until you get to the top of St Laurence's Road you'll be in great shape later on to manage the late miles. You'll get plenty of advice on pacing strategy closer from the mentors in due course. The Wall doesn't claim everybody as a victim! There isn't an inevitability about it. My fastest mile last year was mile 24, second fastest was mile 21.

For every good role model there is a tale of caution, HR and pace tell it all

skyblue46

KSU wrote: »

For every good role model there is a tale of caution, HR and pace tell it all

Still a cracking time! The HR is interesting alright. Was it too big a push up to Castleknock College? It increased a lot between mile 4 and mile 8.

Singer

KSU wrote: »

Some advice on Dublin marathon. While the 20 mile wall is usually apparent miles 2-11 are usually where your marathon is made or broke IMO. You will not hear people say this because they are fresh and it doesn't feel too bad but here is where you need to have the discipline to not get caught up with the occasion as you won't realise it at the time but it is where you are gonna put the initial sting into your legs and that will only get worse as the fatigue grows.

There'll be a good bit of pacing chat closer to October, but I think this is utterly true. My two good Dublin marathons involved setting off with the pacers slower than my target time. I left them after Castleknock for the fast miles through the park, then took it very easy up the steep hills out of the Liffey, and ended up with a negative split both times. In the DCM that I didn't finish, I set off with my target time pacers, failed to recover after those hills and then fell apart, and quit at half way. There were other factors too other than pacing, but I left myself with no margin for error and used way too much energy in the silently difficult first part.

A negative split might be difficult to achieve in practice in a first marathon, but the general strategy is a no-brainer for Dublin's course profile.

KSU

skyblue46 wrote: »

Still a cracking time! The HR is interesting alright. Was it too big a push up to Castleknock College? It increased a lot between mile 4 and mile 8.

Some of that was just it settling in after the start but I focused too much on hitting target pace despite the fact you are climbing from mile 3 to mile 7 Felt very good but of course I was gonna it was the 1st third of the race you would expect to feel good at mile 2 in a 10k sure.

Cramped a bit and probably a few factors but this one was definitely something which stood out on reflection. Ultimately it made me learn to respect the first half of the marathon. The race starts at mile 20 but it takes 20 miles of discipline to get to that race.

kyomi

The increase in miles is starting to hit home now. After doing 15 miles at the weekend (and feeling fine during and after) I had a rest day on Monday followed by an easy 5 miles yesterday which didn't feel easy at all. I had sore quads and calves and my legs were stiff and tired. I also got a bit of that "dead legs" feeling for about a mile. For the first time I was relieved to finish an easy run. I did 4 miles at lunchtime today and felt OK, though not entirely back to normal. I get that the marathon training is designed to get you used to running on tired legs, but this is the first time I've really understood what that meant!

eabha19

kyomi wrote: »

The increase in miles is starting to hit home now. After doing 15 miles at the weekend (and feeling fine during and after) I had a rest day on Monday followed by an easy 5 miles yesterday which didn't feel easy at all. I had sore quads and calves and my legs were stiff and tired. I also got a bit of that "dead legs" feeling for about a mile. For the first time I was relieved to finish an easy run. I did 4 miles at lunchtime today and felt OK, though not entirely back to normal. I get that the marathon training is designed to get you used to running on tired legs, but this is the first time I've really understood what that meant!

Snap! My legs felt very heavy tonight and by the time I hit the strides in 5th mile it was tough to push it even just for the 100m. Also the easy pace that I struggled to slow down to last week now feels like my normal pace - can I run faster than that? I passed my club mates doing hills and looked at their pace on strava - I was thinking even if I did join them I'm not sure my legs could have kept up! Slow feels like my new normal and it's slightly worrying!

Treviso

kyomi wrote: »

The increase in miles is starting to hit home now. After doing 15 miles at the weekend (and feeling fine during and after) I had a rest day on Monday followed by an easy 5 miles yesterday which didn't feel easy at all. I had sore quads and calves and my legs were stiff and tired. I also got a bit of that "dead legs" feeling for about a mile. For the first time I was relieved to finish an easy run. I did 4 miles at lunchtime today and felt OK, though not entirely back to normal. I get that the marathon training is designed to get you used to running on tired legs, but this is the first time I've really understood what that meant!

I can totally understand this and its why the mentors here keep going on about easy miles being easy. Are you still following the same plan as before without as many midweek sessions? What was your easy pace today?

I had a tough MP long run at the weekend which had my legs feeling tired too. With a stepback week this week, I'm glad of the recovery & easy miles this week - gives my legs a time to recover. I see that you're also on a stepback week so you should hopefully do the same.

Huzzah!

kyomi wrote: »

The increase in miles is starting to hit home now. After doing 15 miles at the weekend (and feeling fine during and after) I had a rest day on Monday followed by an easy 5 miles yesterday which didn't feel easy at all. I had sore quads and calves and my legs were stiff and tired. I also got a bit of that "dead legs" feeling for about a mile. For the first time I was relieved to finish an easy run. I did 4 miles at lunchtime today and felt OK, though not entirely back to normal. I get that the marathon training is designed to get you used to running on tired legs, but this is the first time I've really understood what that meant!

This is very normal and I think you're ramping up a bit more quickly because you're taking a step back for holidays? I know you're training by HR but don't be afraid to back the pace off even more if required. Also, let's not underestimate how much of an impact the humidity is having on effort levels. I'm just coming back from a lay off but I still think it's tougher than it would ordinarily be.

eabha19 wrote: »

Snap! My legs felt very heavy tonight and by the time I hit the strides in 5th mile it was tough to push it even just for the 100m. Also the easy pace that I struggled to slow down to last week now feels like my normal pace - can I run faster than that? I passed my club mates doing hills and looked at their pace on strava - I was thinking even if I did join them I'm not sure my legs could have kept up! Slow feels like my new normal and it's slightly worrying!

Trust the process More miles mean you will be tired and you will get tireder and some runs will feel like slogs. Imagine if you were trying to cover the miles at your old paces?

Running on tired legs is great practice for the end of the marathon.

You will, of course, be able to go faster. After a lovely taper, your legs will be rearing to go.

Sunday Runner

Some days I feel like i've got this and other days make me query what i'm doing?! I'm still not sure which plan i'm on, i'm falling between the two and I am a bit worried about the amount of miles on the boards plan! Will I not be utterly fatigued by October?

I'm going to push ahead and do a 15 mile run this Saturday, before we head off on holiday. Nice and early and i'll keep it slow and steady.

Prospector1989

Prospector1989 wrote: »

Did you get in all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?

Got out every day excluding the Monday (so counted this as a rest day). For LSR I did parkrun (without pushing it) followed by 5 miles. Won't be doing Parkrun very often so allowed myself this one :P:D

Did you run the easy runs at an appropriate pace?

Struggling with this but gradually slowing down.


Honeymoon for 3 weeks tomorrow. Have Parkrun San Francisco penciled in for Saturday. Other than that I'll be getting out when I can but not going to stress over it. Felt I had a good week and hoping I won't be too long getting back into the swing of things when I get back.

Got back from the honeymoon yesterday. Completed exactly 0 miles in over 3 weeks. Ate and drank terribly for 3 weeks and loved every minute of it!

Before I went to bed last night made the decision to lay out my running gear for a run this morning before work. 4 miles. Was a tough, tough run but glad to get back to it straight away.

Any regrets? None!

ReeReeG

Sunday Runner wrote: »

Some days I feel like i've got this and other days make me query what i'm doing?! I'm still not sure which plan i'm on, i'm falling between the two and I am a bit worried about the amount of miles on the boards plan! Will I not be utterly fatigued by October?

I'm going to push ahead and do a 15 mile run this Saturday, before we head off on holiday. Nice and early and i'll keep it slow and steady.

You're going to have to pick one and stick to it really. You seemed to be leaning towards boards anyway and had no issue with number of days?
You will get fatigued from the training, that's a given, but not utterly so once you're keeping the easy days properly easy. Once you're into mid-October, you'll be tapering and recovering to be ready for the big day.

frash

I didn't do the Clondalkin 10km race last weekend and instead did a LSR of 11.5 miles.

Next week on the HHN1 plan it's a 10 mile LSR but I might push that to 12.

The following weekend it's a 7 mile LSR but I'm running the Dun Laoghaire 10km on the Monday so I might just do 3 or 4 miles that Saturday.
Does the above make sense?

Another question:
Would I be mad to do a 5 mile race on August 11th?
Have just realised a great local race will be on in West Cork when I'm down there. It's a 5 miler from Goleen to Crookhaven.

Sunday Runner - you might be tempted

Sunday Runner

frash wrote: »

I didn't do the Clondalkin 10km race last weekend and instead did a LSR of 11.5 miles.

Next week on the HHN1 plan it's a 10 mile LSR but I might push that to 12.

The following weekend it's a 7 mile LSR but I'm running the Dun Laoghaire 10km on the Monday so I might just do 3 or 4 miles that Saturday.
Does the above make sense?

Another question:
Would I be mad to do a 5 mile race on August 11th?
Have just realised a great local race will be on in West Cork when I'm down there. It's a 5 miler from Goleen to Crookhaven.

Sunday Runner - you might be tempted

I'll be back home on Saturday 10th, as i'm doing the Rock n Roll half as a training run. Two of my kids are doing the family run. Thanks for thinking of me though - that's a nice route for a 5 mile.

I will not be racing it. Promise.

I'll be in Barleycove the week after the bank holiday - are we in the same area that week?

frash

Sunday Runner wrote: »

I'll be in Barleycove the week after the bank holiday - are we in the same area that week?

Think we'll miss each other - I'm there from the 10th until the 16th.
Off to Italy then on the 17th for 2 weeks for some hot weather training

Wombled

Looking for a bit of advise, I may not be able to do Dublin half this year. I really want to do a half to see how my training is going. I am looking at doing a half on the 7 th of September instead ( swooping the Lsr that week to the 21st). I am doing the FD 10 mile as well. Do you think those 2 races will too close together as they are two weeks apart ?. So many decisions and juggling to be made. .