VW ID.3

BigAl81

Yeah I was working out that logic on a recent trip but it doesn't really work out.

If the WLTP range of yh ID is 420, after 100kms driving you'd be at about 75 to 80% of your battery so you'd be getting much slower charging speed as rapid charging tapers off over 80%. Not sure 10 minutes would get you what your expecting in that case?

I'll also literally eat my hat if there are multiple ESB rapid charger sites by end of next year, I wouldn't be buying a car if I was depending on that.

The example above I was replying to was a 390km trip with no time to stop, with kids in the car, so was just pointing out you won't get the 420 started range in that driving scenario eg: 80% motorway driving.

If you regularly (daily?) must use public charging to get your kids to school I wouldn't recommend any EV

Lumen

BigAl81 wrote: »

The example above I was trying to was a 390km trip with no time to stop, with kids in the car, so was just pointing out you won't get the 420 started range in that driving scenario eg: 80% motorway driving.

If you regularly (daily?) must use public charging to get your kids to school I wouldn't recommend any EV

How far away from the school do you live?

BigAl81

drunkmonkey wrote:

What's the odds of getting the claimed 450km mileage, let's say on a day like today, radio on, satnav, maybe an hour massage, driving lights on for the 400km, good majority of the drive cruise set to 120km for 80% of the time, literally picked up the kids with 10 minutes to spare so no time to be messing around getting a top up charge. 390km clocked up....I'm thinking it won't get anywhere near 450km...what do the EV guys reckon...

This is what I was replying to. The ID looks like a great car, but not for the use case asked above.

It's important to get the right tool for the job. I'd suggest EVs suit more people than people think, but they don't suit everyone. You really don't want to spend 40 grand on a car that isn't suitable for your needs.

liamog

BigAl81 wrote: »

I'll also literally eat my hat if there are multiple ESB rapid charger sites by end of next year, I wouldn't be buying a car if I was depending on that.

The first one has already opened, so far we have 4 operators in Ireland with multi charger sites. Ionity (all), ESB Circle K M9, Applegreen Birdhill, EasyGo Kinnegad.

Those sites have pretty much all come online in the last 12 months. I honestly think you'd be mad to avoid purchasing an EV due to needing to fast charge twice twice a month on longer journeys. Especially given an ID.3 isn't available until summer next year. We'll probably have even more sites with multiple chargers by then.

unkel

Might as wel start eating that hat, BigAl81 :pac:

BigAl81

Ha ha

That site on the M9 is two chargers with just 3 parking spaces. I mentioned ESB hubs, which ESB define as 4 to 10 cars at a time. Also that M9 rapid charger is the first new location to get a rapid charger in years so they move very slowly.

Not much use telling someone in Mayo to divert to Naas to top up their car

Again, I answered the specific use case asked above about the ID doing a specific trip.

I think alot of people will buy the ID expecting 420kms range, so just pointing out they won't get it in many use cases. The more you know.

KCross

You can live watch the start of production on Monday...
https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/id3-start-of-production-in-zwickau-5514

drunkmonkey

BigAl81 wrote: »

I think alot of people will buy the ID expecting 420kms range, so just pointing out they won't get it in many use cases. The more you know.

I thought this WTLP was meant to reflect real word, if we can't come close to it in ireland what's it going to be like in Germany when people are hopping off the 100mph limit of the ID on the autobahn.

I know with a petrol I can do a constant 120km/h for 420km using 30 liters of fuel or roughly 42 euro.
What is the same calculation in an EV.

KCross

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I thought this WTLP was meant to reflect real word, if we can't come close to it in ireland what's it going to be like in Germany when people are hopping off the 100mph limit of the ID on the autobahn.

I know with a petrol I can do a constant 120km/h for 420km using 30 liters of fuel or roughly 42 euro.
What is the same calculation in an EV.

Different for every EV, of course, but something like 18-25kWh/100km @120km/h and then divide that into the size of your usable battery capacity and leave a bit of buffer as you dont want to arrive at a rapid with 0%.

Kramer

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What is the same calculation in an EV.

Charged at home on inexpensive night rate electricity - €7 odd.

Factor in saving a polar bear or even helping to prevent a child developing severe respiratory illness & the EV is a no brainer .

drunkmonkey

KCross wrote: »

Different for every EV, of course, but something like 18-25kWh/100km @120km/h and then divide that into the size of your usable battery capacity and leave a bit of buffer as you dont want to arrive at a rapid with 0%.

So in the id3 first with the 58kw battery that would be around 10km?

25/100 = 4, multiply that by 120 and divide by 58?

stesaurus

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So in the id3 first with the 58kw battery that would be around 10km?

25/100 = 4, multiply that by 120 and divide by 58?

It's 25kWh per 100km and that's a lot. I'd say closer to 20 for the ID3.
So say using 55kWh then you'd manage 225km

KCross

drunkmonkey wrote: »

So in the id3 first with the 58kw battery that would be around 10km?

25/100 = 4, multiply that by 120 and divide by 58?

So, 58kWh usable and assuming you dont want to arrive at 0% lets say its really 55kWh usable and assuming it can do 18kWh/100km @ 120km/h(big assumption since we dont know yet)....

55/18=300km.

stesaurus

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I thought this WTLP was meant to reflect real word, if we can't come close to it in ireland what's it going to be like in Germany when people are hopping off the 100mph limit of the ID on the autobahn.

I know with a petrol I can do a constant 120km/h for 420km using 30 liters of fuel or roughly 42 euro.
What is the same calculation in an EV.

WLTP is real world. Nobody gets out of their garden and straight onto a motorway for 200km+. It's a mix of driving and WLTP is based in this.
Of course there's some weird edge cases that will do things differently and they all seem to frequent here regularly!

drunkmonkey

How are you turning 55/18 into 300?

KCross

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How are you turning 55/18 into 300?

55kWh usable
18kWh/100km

55/18=3.05 x 100km --> 300km

drunkmonkey

Ah I get you now, do we know that's what the ID uses yet 18kw?

So the 73kw should do about 380km under a long quick drive.

Last question, Is the air con, radio with beats whoofer, massage seats, wipers and lights included in the 18kw?

KCross

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Ah I get you now, do we know that's what the ID uses yet 18kw?

No, we dont know what the ID.3 will manage in relation to kWh/100km. We can make educated guesses but thats all it is until we see some reviews.

It wont be wildly wrong though.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Last question, Is the air con, radio with beats whoofer, massage seats, wipers and lights included in the 18kw?

Yes, sort of. Most of those make little or no difference to the range. Not sure about massage seats... cant imagine they would use much.

A/C and particularly heating would be the ones that would affect it.

Note that whatever figure the ID.3 will have its not a set figure... it depends on driving conditions, outside temperature and gradient as well so it will have some variability in it... its just an approximation really.

samih

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Last question, Is the air con, radio with beats whoofer, massage seats, wipers and lights included in the 18kw?

All of the above uses no more than 1kW combined with heating being the biggest consumer. Wipers 0.1 kW, lights another 0.1 kW, Radio 0.05 kW and so on. Heating can use several kilowatts of power but ramps down to a few hundred watts on average after a few minutes when the car has heated up.

McGiver

Lumen wrote:

Even it was possible, someone would come along and say they wanted to do Dublin-Waterford return without recharging and so needed 520km range at motorway speeds in the wet and sometimes they're late for a flight so need to go faster and what if they don't want to deplete the battery below 10% and what about if Sentry Mode is on for a few hours or what if they park at the airport for a week and suffer phantom drain and what about when the battery degrades by 15% cos they're doing a lot of miles and charging to 100% regularly.

Exactly, the EV opponents/sceptics always raise the bar, it's a never-ending story and they basically ever cannot be satisfied. When range was 100km they said it must be at least 200km, when range got to 200km they said it must be 300km, now the range is 300km+, they are saying it must be 500km. Now we're getting into 300-400km territory and it's still not enough. In Ireland, for common men, I believe that 300km range at 120kph in winter is the range suitable for mass adoption. Are we there yet?

KCross

McGiver wrote: »

In Ireland, for common men, I believe that 300km range at 120kph in winter is the range suitable for mass adoption. Are we there yet?

We are, just that it costs €40k+ and the choice is poor!

McGiver

KCross wrote:

Note that whatever figure the ID.3 will have its not a set figure... it depends on driving conditions, outside temperature and gradient as well so it will have some variability in it... its just an approximation really.

Also dry vs wet road....

I admit its somewhat less consumer friendly, EV range isn't set like the ICE range, it's variable based on several factors - speed, road conditions, wind direction, gradient, amount of heating or AC, driving style (harsh accelerating and breaking), amount of regen (automatic order manual). It's not easy as ICE for sure.

drunkmonkey

McGiver wrote: »

Exactly, the EV opponents/sceptics always raise the bar, it's a never-ending story and they basically ever cannot be satisfied. When range was 100km they said it must be at least 200km, when range got to 200km they said it must be 300km, now the range is 300km+, they are saying it must be 500km. Now we're getting into 300-400km territory and it's still not enough. In Ireland, for common men, I believe that 300km range at 120kph in winter is the range suitable for mass adoption. Are we there yet?

The range needs to be around 500km with the boot down to elevate and worries people have about range and charge anxiety.
It doesn't seem to be there yet at any cost and when your in a price bracket with some really good fun cars you need to be as good or better to win people over.
The id3 Max is priced like a Golf R, there is absolutely no question if there was no government incentives you'd be picking the R unless your name is Greta.

BigAl81

McGiver wrote:

I admit its somewhat less consumer friendly, EV range isn't set like the ICE range, it's variable based on several factors - speed, road conditions, wind direction, gradient, amount of heating or AC, driving style (harsh accelerating and breaking), amount of regen (automatic order manual). It's not easy as ICE for sure.

Exactly this. I think there will be a lot of new EV drivers disappointed with the range they get.

I was chatting to a dealer this week and he said someone brought the car back to "be fixed" because they weren't getting the range they expected! I foresee a lot more of this.

I think they should sell the cars with 4 advertised range numbers...

1) Summer suburban
2) Summer motorway
3) Winter suburban
4) Winter motorway

They'd be four very different numbers! For example, anyone looking at the ID range, for scenario 1 and 4 above the cars range would be different by up to 30%+

In my experience of 20,000 EV Kms driven this year I get 230kms in scenario 1, but just 165kms in scenario 4 on a bad day!!

drunkmonkey

It should be advertised at the minium range. We know from above that id3 is probably going to get you at least 300km. Well then that's the range, they've had to reign in broadband providers with their "up to" speeds same should apply to cars. The WLTP figure seems to be not real world for everyone.
I pay eircom for broadband up to 100mb, I only get 30mb. It's alright it works but I'm not depending on it to get me home on a winter's night.

Lumen

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It should be advertised at the minium range. We know from above that id3 is probably going to get you at least 300km. Well then that's the range, they've had to reign in broadband providers with their "up to" speeds same should apply to cars. The WLTP figure seems to be not real world for everyone.
I pay eircom for broadband up to 100mb, I only get 30mb. It's alright it works but I'm not depending on it to get me home on a winter's night.

I don't think you've thought this through. It is not as simple as broadband.

What testing procedure would you use for this worldwide "minimum" standard? 250kph on the autobahn in the wet at -10C with a 100kph headwind?

JPA

McGiver wrote: »

Also dry vs wet road....

I admit its somewhat less consumer friendly, EV range isn't set like the ICE range, it's variable based on several factors - speed, road conditions, wind direction, gradient, amount of heating or AC, driving style (harsh accelerating and breaking), amount of regen (automatic order manual). It's not easy as ICE for sure.

ICE range is dependent on all those factors as well just not so noticeable.

JohnC.

Maybe in the not too distant future there may come a day where they won't feel the need to advertise range, just like ICE don't.

McGiver

drunkmonkey wrote:

The range needs to be around 500km with the boot down to elevate and worries people have about range and charge anxiety.

Here we go, 500km. Then then goalpost will shift to 500 miles.... There's no end to this.

What you describe is "range anxiety anxiety" not range anxiety.

McGiver

BigAl81 wrote:

They'd be four very different numbers! For example, anyone looking at the ID range, for scenario 1 and 4 above the cars range would be different by up to 30%+

Funnily enough and to disappoint hydrogen believers - HFCV range can drop by 50%+ in winter. BEV at 25% is not too bad after all!

I've read a review written by a fella who drove and tested both BEV and HFCV. Can't find it, so won't link.