Energy infrastructure

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119521189#Comment_119521189

The non floating Scottish WF's have a capacity factor maxing at about 47%. That article says "for as little as £37.35 per megawatt hour" Which sounds great (what is the non-little cost?), until you realize that for the first 47% of your MW are paying a rate of £37.35, but for the remaining 53% of your MW you are paying at a rate of £450, because that's gas. So one MW is costing you £256. The MW strike price for the exorbitantly costly Hinkley C - compared with what South Koreans can build them for in SK - is now £106.12 per MW.

That's well less than half, and that's with what has been criticised as the world's most expensive and insane nuclear contract in history.

bk

“That's well less than half, and that's with what has been criticised as the world's most expensive and insane nuclear contract in history.”

Sure, it is easy to hit that cheaper price point when you put fake parts in your Nuclear power plant and fake safety documentation!

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119520739#Comment_119520739

Again Hywind's capacity factor during winter when power was needed most was 65%, getting less power in summer isn't a biggie especially when solar can get up to 18 hours of diffuse light.

IIRC Slovenia shares it's one reactor with another country. That guarantees month long outages with ZERO power every 18 month or so. Like I keep saying the issue with nuclear is not the uptime, it's the downtime. Even predicated shutdowns can extend far longer than intended.

To get 1GWh of power out you'd need to put 2.5GWh in, but not necessarily at the same rate. If you had 2.5 times as much wind as peak capacity then you'd be storing power over a much longer time than you'd be using it for peaking. Back of envelope says you'd be able to use 1GW of hydrolyses for 50% of the time to produce enough hydrogen to produce 1GW for 20% of the time. Hydrolysers cost £150M/100MW and until you exceed 7% of energy content of mains gas you can dump the hydrogen into the gas mains so no need for big infrastructure changes.

NOX problem is an issue that's largely been solved as it's combustion temperature related. If the environmental law changed and there was an insane target for NOX then water/steam could be used to dilute/cool the incoming air or you could use the oxygen liberated during hydrolysis for zero NOX or you could use the exhaust gases as the input stream for nitrogen fixation to capture it. If environmental laws change for nuclear to a similar degree then it's game over.

Stored hydrogen would use surplus power so should come in below strike price then again it would get peaking plant price when used as it's dispatchable.

There's 500MW of storage already on our grid, planned to grow to 800MW by the end of next year with a total of 2,500MW by 2030.

I honestly didn't realise there was that much. Granted most of it is short duration, a few hours, but it's not a bad start.

RTE news : Storage key to Ireland's energy security and transition

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0824/1318569-is-battery-storage-key-in-irelands-energy-transition/

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523504#Comment_119523504

How long does that storage keep the lights on for if gas supplies are constrained and we get a low wind event in winter?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523811#Comment_119523811

It will offer a few hours of additional power to the grid.

Obviously won't be able to sustain the grid beyond that though but then that's, well, obvious.

But then there is no solution that will be in place before the winter that could do more than that as far as I know.

But let me throw it back to you. Keeping in mind the planning system, environmental legislation, existing facilities and market prices of both raw materials and fuel availability,what do you think they should do, that is feasible to actually get done in the time frame available? Like an actual realistic proposal,not pie in the sky stuff or stuff that would require us to contravene legislation or infringe on rights. Is there anything?

Maybe there is and I'm just not seeing it

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523811#Comment_119523811

All the planned storage on the grid won't last long ,even if the silver mines pumped storage gets built .. but it does allow you to depend on wind turbines a lot more , it "smoothes " out the supply ... So less gas is burnt...

We need gas storage as well .. irrelevant of wind power ...

And I wouldn't be decommissioning money point or tarbert either , it's 2 gw of of power with it's own fuel reserve ..

Incidentally at least some of the gas power stations ( aghada and whitegate and I assume others ) can run on diesel and have to be able to run on that for at least 10 days ... )

How long the diesel in the country would last if all the power stations had to swap to diesel I don't know ...

Apogee

NFE are apparently in discussion with other companies to develop the Shannon LNG site for hydrogen

Developers of the Shannon liquefied natural gas (LNG) site have told Taoiseach Micheál Martin they are in discussions with renewable companies to develop the site for hydrogen and to connect offshore renewables to the electricity grid.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2022/08/26/shannon-lng-site-developers-in-discussion-with-renewable-energy-companies/

Varadkar tells FG party members that he could support the project on condition it uses non-fracked gas:

He argued that technological advancements to avoid using natural gas are decades away and warned that if something went wrong with the UK interconnector from which Ireland imports 75pc of its natural gas, there would be no other way to get gas into the country.

The Fine Gael leader said that while he opposed using LNG terminals to import fracked gas – a controversial drilling method opposed by environmentalists – there was a case for them if only non-fracked gas was imported.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/tanaiste-leo-varadkar-backs-controversial-gas-terminals-opposed-by-greens-eamon-ryan-41933096.html

Markcheese

Once it's built no one would worry too much about fracked or non fracked - especially if the lights were going to go off - there'd need to be availability of liquified gas and tankers too . All of which are in short supply at the moment ..

Incidentally ,is most of the fracked gas from the US a by product of the shale oil industry ? So if it's not piped it's flared ?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523959#Comment_119523959

Oh there’s very little they can do about it now, but if Richard Bruton or ER had of read and taken onboard Eirgrids report from 2017 and engineers irelands report from 2018 maybe we would have CNG storage and an LNG facility in place.

Well we wouldn’t have an LNG terminal as ER won’t even entertain the thoughts of it.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523985#Comment_119523985

They can also run on oil distillate (is that the same as pure diesel?)

we have 90 days supply of oil on whiddy island but we have no direct connection from whiddy to the rest of Ireland and as far as I know- we’ve no tanker dedicated to move it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119524660#Comment_119524660

They can say they don't want fracked gas, but couldn't stop anyone importing it, best they can do is ask suppliers to prove its not from a fracked source but a supplier would not be prevented from offloading regardless

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/comment-shannon-lng-terminal-could-alleviate-eu-energy-crisis-675776

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525053#Comment_119525053

No ,but there are coastal tankers serving Irish oil depot's all the time , they're in and out of whitegate all the time , and most Irish cities/ ports have some sort of oil depot - obviously it'd have to get road tankered from there to individual power stations ..

bk

"we have 90 days supply of oil on whiddy island but we have no direct connection from whiddy to the rest of Ireland and as far as I know- we’ve no tanker dedicated to move it."

Short of a Zombie Apocalypse, there wouldn't be any difficulty securing tankers to transfer the oil to the mainland if there was an issue with the gas interconnectors. Plus there are facilities at Dublin Port and the other ports to import more oil if needed. There is also the ability to increase output from Corrib.

Sure, we'd end up paying more for all the above in such an emergency, but the lights wouldn't be going out.

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119523504#Comment_119523504

I've been thinking a lot about short duration (<4 hour) battery storage technology and how it really should be the key focus over the next 18 months.

We have two problems:

• A lack of dispatch-able energy production. Demand has increased. We shut down the old peat plants. Contracts to build new gas plants fell through.
• There's a shortage of affordable gas for our gas power plants

I'm much more worried about the lack of energy production gather than the lack of gas supply. I think we should be looking at demand reduction through consumer and industrial behaviour change but there will likely still be an energy production problem.

The graph above is the typical winter energy demand in Ireland. The hardest / most expensive problem has always been providing enough power during peak demand around 5pm - 7pm. There is a 2-3 hour window where peaker plants come online to meet the demand of people coming home, turning on the heating, starting the oven, turning on the dishwasher etc.

The most likely time for load shredding / brownouts / blackouts is during this time window. We will likely be running close to the danger zone on windless winter evenings. If even a few power plants are down for maintenance / trip from the grid we could see issues.

The 500MW of battery storage we have now in aggregate is similar to our largest gas power plants. The saga of securing new emergency 200MW gas power plants in Dublin has been immense with legal actions, EPA licenses, planning permission all delaying / scuppering the plans. Could 400MW of new battery energy be delivered instead. There's 1 GW worth of battery energy storage in Ireland with planning permission that hasn't been built yet (Source).

Should battery energy storage be our focus to cover the 2-3 hour peak demand instead of trying to fruitlessly secure new emergency gas generators?

I'm personally praying for a mild and windy winter this year. While hoping for the best I'm planning for the worst by stocking up on fuel and attempting to complete a few home energy projects before this winter. One thing I'm convinced about is that this winter isn't going to be fun in Europe.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525250#Comment_119525250

Which to keep the power stations going would take half the tankers in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525031#Comment_119525031

Just to put some historical info here for context

In March 2008, the Shannon LNG terminal was given ten-year planning permission. However it hadn’t been completed in 2018 and An Bord Pleanála granted it a five-year extension.

Friends of the Irish Environment (FIE), challenged that extension. The environmental advocacy group argued that both the Irish state and the European Union did not conduct independent sustainability, climate and cost-benefit analyses of the terminal before it was added to the EU’s fourth Project of Common Interest (PCI) list. PCIs are key cross-border infrastructure projects linking energy systems in EU countries.

Although FIE had challenged the 2008 planning permission approval and lost, this time it won its case. In 2020, the High Court made formal orders overturning An Bord Pleanála’s extension of planning permission for the Shannon LNG terminal.

https://www.buzz.ie/news/irish-news/shannon-lng-gas-planning-permission-24839547

So it was ok to build from 2008-2018 but never was, so they asked for 5 more years got the ok but that ok was quashed in Nov 2020

They applied for new permission in Sept 2021 (maybe Aug, not sure) and this is currently with ABP (but a decision is not likely until 2023).

So, regardless of Bruton, Ryan or anyone else, the actual holders of the permission choose to never build the thing when they had permission.....for 10 years.

If they don't use the permission they have I'm not sure what you expect a minister to do? Hold a gun to their heads and force them to build it? If Naughten, Bruton or Ryan read the report you are referring to it would make zero difference if the company holding the permission choose not to do anything.

You can blame the respective ministers all you want but at the end of the day there was permission there for a decade that wasn't used.

Looking into the future, lets say ABP give approval, its virtually guaranteed that it will be challenged in the courts and you can toss a coin as to its chances of winning as the longer it takes, the more environmental considerations are stacked against it.

To be honest, I think its missed its window and from this point on will likely never be able to get funding from investors as its going to end up as a stranded asset because of how long its going to take for it to be operational.

In terms of timelines, it might end up something like this

• 2023 - ABP approves it but it ends up in the High Court
• 2024 - HC hearings, result and appeal to the SC (regardless of the winner)
• 2026 - SC hearings, result and potential appeal to the CJEU
• 2028 - CJEU result (lets say LNG wins)
• 2029 - back to SC for final judgement
• 2030 - Ready to start construction

Now, by 2030, forgetting what we have now, we're going have an additional 7GW of offshore wind, 5.5GW of solar, another 1-2 GW of onshore wind, 2.5GW of battery backup, possibly Silvermines, the 500MW Greenlink interconnector to Wales, the 700MW Celtic interconnector.

Through the retrofitting program we're also going to have a sizable chunk of gas heating removed from homes, not forgetting none will be allowed to be installed in new builds from 2025 onwards.

So the market for gas in 2030 and onwards is going to look vastly different to what it is today. Maybe there'll still be a place for it, but honestly I think it will really, REALLY struggle to get investors post 2030 so its time may well be past

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525385#Comment_119525385

Why can’t the government get a state asset to build an LNG terminal then?

cnocbui

I find it endlessly weird that people in Ireland and Europe are supposed to be so concerned about the environment in the US. If a Democrat run government in the US, with huge numbers of scientists employed throught it's public bodies and government, is happy with fracked gas, why the f*** are people who live on the other sideof the Atlantic of the opinion they should care or dictate to the US government what it's internal domestic concerns should be?

Fracking is just yet another bogeyman the green movement has seized upon as a lever of stupidity they hope to use to stymie anything that isn't powered by the wind, sun or running water, to a soundtrack of cute little birds chirping in a virgin forrest.

I got news for you greenies, Norway will drill and pipe every last erg of energy they can discover under their territory, and gleefully export it to other countries for immediate conversion to NOX and CO2. Worrying about fracking in the face of Norway's eco friendly carry on is laughable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525483#Comment_119525483

Who would you suggest?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525569#Comment_119525569

Why could ESB not do it? They’re semi state aren’t they?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525634#Comment_119525634

Its possible, but the next thing needed would be the site, feasibility study for the site, EIS, NIA (location dependent), then cabinet approval, then design, then planning permission, the various legal challenges and finally construction.

And thats a very short summary, in reality there'd be a lot more steps

So really, whether its private or state built, it would have all the same hoops to go through, well actually more, if it was to be done at a different site, so could potentially take longer. In addition as we'd be talking a semi-state, you'd likely see a lot of political interference and delays at all stages (National Childrens Hospital anyone)

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525836#Comment_119525836

So esb is one of the largest land holders in Ireland just with the amount of area taken up with substations yards etc, so an LNG plant on existing land where for example a power station is already built with a ready made connection to the gas grid would probably be ideal.

ESB build and act as clients in a huge amount of projects throughout Ireland and the world (as ESBI) so I really don’t see that as a problem.

Political will is the big stumbling block as we have already seen with ER actively blocking and discouraging the LNG terminal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119525896#Comment_119525896

So esb is one of the largest land holders in Ireland just with the amount of area taken up with substations yards etc, so an LNG plant on existing land where for example a power station is already built with a ready made connection to the gas grid would probably be ideal.

ESB build and act as clients in a huge amount of projects throughout Ireland and the world (as ESBI) so I really don’t see that as a problem.

No argument there, but it would still be the far side of 2030 before it would be in operation

Political will is the big stumbling block as we have already seen with ER actively blocking and discouraging the LNG terminal.

There was nothing stopping it from being built from 2008-2018 when it had permission and its back pending approval with ABP now so 🤷‍♀️

Apogee

There was a previous proposal to use floating storage in Cork harbour, but it came to nothing.

It is proposed that NextDecade will ship in LNG into the Whitegate terminal and transfer it onto the floating storage unit.

It will then be turned into natural gas and pumped onto the main gas line from the Kinsale gas fields which run onshore in the Whitegate area.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20455405.html

Banana Republic 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119526091#Comment_119526091

Can’t foresee any disaster happening there 👀

Banana Republic 1

BBC podcast about fusion power.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-inquiry/id932499233?i=1000577297265

roadmaster

Pat McDonagh suggesting we reopen Lanesbourgh and Shannonbridge power stations. Leaving a side the eco reasons why they closed I presume there two major issues stopping them reopening thst would be no milled peat left to burn and BNM have sold a lot of there equipment

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0826/1318973-supermacs-urges-more-action-on-energy/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119530580#Comment_119530580

The most important reason they closed, the planning permission for them expired and the renewal was rejected

plodder

One of the most disingenuous things I've ever read. It's like he has only just discovered that wind power is intermittent and he feels deceived, but then forgets again when he writes this (about data centres):

Ryan and others conveniently forget to mention that sector’s enormous and growing privately funded investment in self-supply of wind energy — currently estimated to be more than 450MW of electricity.

The LNG terminal could have been built years ago, but government inaction when Eamon Ryan wasn't in power, delayed it. The potential disruption to our electricity supply has been predicted for years, but the government has done nothing about it. This is a government failure pure and simple.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/renewable-energy-wont-stop-the-lights-going-out-this-winter-41942139.html