Energy infrastructure

josip

Did Derrybrien generate any electricity during its lifetime?

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119553503#Comment_119553503

It's been generating electricity for the last 16 years. It never stopped afaik.

70 turbines. I think it might be the biggest wind farm in the country.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119553916#Comment_119553916

I wonder did it cover its costs (construction, environmental impact, EU fines, deconstruction) while operating?

Also, could someone apply in the future to develop an almost identical windfarm at Derrybrien, reinstating most of the turbines apart from those in places susceptible to landslides and assuming all the necessary boxes were ticked? The location is obviously viable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119553916#Comment_119553916

Its the largest in terms of qty

Also the turbines are 0.85MW versus newer ones which are 3+ so smaller windfarms out-produce it

Offshore, we'll be seeing turbines that are 10-15MW each, so 7-8 of those would output more than Derrybriens 70, especially when you consider the higher, more consistent, wind speeds off the coasts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wind_farms_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119552128#Comment_119552128

The pen is more profitable, and ahell of a lot easier, than a spanner.

The money this country spends on report writing and red tape is depressing.

Pete_Cavan

Surely they just delay the Derrybrien decommissioning for a couple of years while the generation is desperately needed? It would be madness to spend money taking capacity off the grid given thr current circumstances.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119556568#Comment_119556568

FA use if wind conditions aren't right - which is at the core of the current crisis where the need for conventional back up is now getting harder by the day to deny by the industries cheerleaders and fellow travellers in the government

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119553176#Comment_119553176

His article would suggest he knows FA about the relevant EU laws

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119554064#Comment_119554064

Building windfarms on peatlands shouldn't be allowed full stop for a long list of reasons - how many more Derrybreins, Mweenbogs(Donegal and still the subject on investigations both sides of the border) and last months windfarm related land slippage in Kerry does there need to be before that sinks in??

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557635#Comment_119557635

But when conditions are right, it would offset the use of gas (mostly likely) or other fossil fuels, which given present circumstances can only be a good thing. It's existing, available energy generation, it would be mad not to use it, use the energy generated but don't pay the owners so they don't benefit from it. Please dont start with your anti wind crusade and waffling on about other generation which will take decades to develop, it has no relevance here.

is_that_so

Just saw this. How many of these district heating plans are there?

https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/details-of-ban-on-gas-and-oil-home-heating-systems-to-be-known-within-weeks-41954294.html

plodder

Interesting what the ABP inspector concluded about the Derrybrien project in the retention application:

It is considered that subject to compliance with the conditions set out below the windfarm project would accord with European, national, regional, and local planning and related policy. It did not and would not have an unacceptable impact on the landscape or visual amenity, it did not and would not seriously injure the visual or residential amenities of the area or of property in the vicinity, and it was and would be acceptable in terms of traffic safety and convenience. Following the implementation of remedial measures, the windfarm project did not and would not have a long-term impact on ecology and biodiversity. The windfarm project was, and would, therefore, be in accordance with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

Two further reports upheld the same recommendation. The board overturned this on the belief that "exceptional circumstances" did not apply. The reasoning for coming to that conclusion doesn't appear to refer to the climate crisis and puts a lot of weight on the fact that while some of the effects of the peat slide were remediated, not all effects were. I wonder what this actually means. The majority of the peat that moved has stabilised and "naturalised" over the last 15 years. Did the board expect them to move it all back to where it came from?

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/308019

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557932#Comment_119557932

Only one I am aware of that has come to light is AWS in Tallaght, which was piped into the ITT and the hospital as opposed to residential.

However the messaging on this is all wrong - on the one hand Mr Ryan was on various media programmes all week swearing there'd be no power cuts this winter. Yet here he is planning to make it completely unavoidable for households not to lump anything from 4MWh to 6MWh for an average household in additional energy usage onto their bills every year for heating. All the while electricity prices are skyrocketing.

Who would have any faith in being forced to invest in a far more expensive heat pump than a typical oil or gas boiler costs, if we can't keep the lights on and we've no idea what electricity prices will be in a year or two's time?

timmyntc

“And when it comes to existing boilers, that whole fleet of boilers in the 25pc of houses that were built between 2000 and 2010, we have to make sure they switch to heat pumps, not to new gas boilers, not to replace fossil with fossil.”

Replacing oil and gas boilers on older homes with heat pumps is insane - for many houses they arent well insulated enough or airtight enough to work. Heat pumps fitted where they arent suitable uses up massive amounts of electricity as theyll be nearly constantly on due to heat loss in a poorly insulated home

He said a recent Danish study found 90pc of the 1.8m homes connected to district heating systems there were completely insulated from the gas price hikes of recent months.

All those people getting free heating through district heating schemes are insulate from fossil fuel prices, until the factory who supplies the heat gets into trouble. If that factory shuts, you have a very large amount of people with no heating at all. This happened to similar smaller scale schemes around the country in the past ~50 years ago, local factory provides heat to swimming pools and offices. Then the factory shuts and these buildings designed around easy free heat are suddenly not sustainable either and need torn down and replaced with fossil fuel boilers.

With the reports from Germany of certain manufacturing slowing down due to massive energy and gas costs, district heating schemes could well be in danger for some too.

Sam Russell

Why this constant push for heat pumps flies in the face of thermodynamics.

Heat pumps are a system of transferring heat from a cold source to a hot source. This is how a fridge works by taking heat out of the insulated enclosure and transferring it to the radiator grid at the back.

Now the efficiency is a multiplier of energy input to the pump based on the temperature difference between the hot and cold ends - the smaller the difference, the greater the multiplier. This is typically 4 or 5 times for an efficient domestic installation used properly. The domestic property must be well insulated and air tight with a proper ventilation arrangement - as a new build would have if built to current standards. Even so, best results are achieved if the heat pump system and ventilation system are both on all the time controlled by an accurate thermostat.

A typical family that expects a heat pump to replace a gas or oil based boiler and work without insulation or air tight ventilation system will find the cost of running it will be higher. If they try to use it like the old system, they will find it just does not work properly.

That message needs to get out.

This sloganeering that Minister Ryan goes on with (heat pumps good, cycling the only way, recycling very good, etc.) needs to be eradicated and replaced with proper messaging that tells the whole story.

cnocbui

You can't get a leopard to change it's spots, Eamon has to be given the boot for the good of the country, even though that would trigger an election. Better that than more energy stupidity at this critical point in time. ER is a zealot; he's about the worst fit for the portfolios he's got than just about anone else you could think of.

Some while back now, I had to replace my boiler because the hard water killed it, or it had a manufacturing fault. Anyway, the all up cost was about €700. Under Eamon's cunning plan, if it failed now, I'd obvioulsy have to get it repaired because I suspect the cost to upgrade the house to make a heat pump remotely viable would be €40-50 K for external wall insulation and argon tripple glazing and thicker roof cavity insulation, plus the heat pump and new radiators, so another €18,000, at least, given the heat pump, installation and replacement of all radiators. No underfloor heating of course.

So ER wants people to be up for spending around 85 times as much as a replacement boiler. I'd be sooner getting a replacement boiler delivered from the north, hiring a van driving there and buying a new boiler and driving back and paying some lads to heft it or get the old one repaired.

His clever plan would inconveniance people considerably, but no one able to operate a calculator would be giving in to his nonsense and retrofitting a heat pump unless they were minted or their house was already built to a standard way beyond the norm.

ER: “What we need to do now is make it absolutely clear for people that we are switching away from fossil fuels and switching to better alternatives,”

Di​​ck head.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557932#Comment_119557932

I thought they were already banned for new builds? Any new house I've seen recently has a heat pump. But, banning for existing installations is completely unrealistic and won't happen. Reminds me when John Gormley "banned" incandescent light bulbs in 2007. Ireland was the first country to ban them, but I'm fairly sure you can still buy them. And if you can't do it for something simple like light bulbs, with alternative plug in replacements, it's going to be a lot harder for heating systems. It will take decades to upgrade the country's housing stock.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gormley-lights-the-way-with-ban-on-bulbs-26337063.html

specialbyte

They aren't banned from new builds.

It comes as it emerged one in five new homes built last year and one in 12 this year to date have fossil-fuel heating systems despite the introduction of regulations meant to encourage the use of clean energy.

Source: https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/details-of-ban-on-gas-and-oil-home-heating-systems-to-be-known-within-weeks-41954294.html

I was surprised when looking at a new build in 2021 that it had a gas boiler installed in it. The house was well insulated and air tight. The BER was A2. It isn't likely that the gas boiler would run all that often. It was a small 50sqm two bed house so the heating demands would be low enough. I was surprised it was even allowed. Banning gas boilers from new builds is a total no brainer and should be done today.

I'm not convinced about banning gas boilers for retrofits after 2025. More information / grants need to be available otherwise people could be left with no heating option if they can't afford to retrofit to support a heat pump. We need to urgently move that direction but the supports don't seem ready for that decision yet.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119557826#Comment_119557826

Amazing your type continue to leave in a fantasy wind powered world that will never exist - all the grids that went down this route in the EU are now the most dependent on gas, coal etc. to keep the lights on

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119559609#Comment_119559609

Not sure why a graph showing it's not windy on a warm day where you wouldn't have the heat on anyway is relevant.

In the coldest month of the year, February, last year wind was 53% of electricity supply.

If you're worried about electricity in the summer install some solar panels and you'll produce multiplies of what you need in the less windy summer months

MightyMunster

While i agree 💯 in phasing out fossil fuels. What happens if your boiler dies in November (as happened to me once) and your only alternative is a heat pump. You'd have the heat pump running for months before you could get the necessary retrofit completed. And that's assuming you can access the finance to pay for it at short notice.

Won't a lot of the boom houses have boilers approaching end of life in the next few years. These are mostly C rated so would need significant upgrades to insulation and air tightness.

dennis72

Need green nazis out of government and any representation levels

We the eu and especially Germany need our own fossil fuel development policy till other alternatives are ready and not before.

After we can carbon tax

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563153#Comment_119563153

And there's your crusade again, I asked you not to go there but you've got nothing else. Nobody has ever claimed that everything would be 100% wind powered but we do live in a largely wind powered country. That you of all people would accuse others of living in a fantasy powered world that will never exist is beyond trolling. How the mods allow you away with this dismissive, aggressive posting while being completely clueless yourself I'll never understand.

marno21

Wind providing 53% of electricity in February, a month where we could see acute European gas shortages this winter, would be a massive asset to us.

Even more so when you consider that this crisis isn’t going to end next summer. Fully depleted gas storage will have to be filled from empty next summer also with no let up in pricing. Every kWh from wind counts in that regard.

All the same, the marginal pricing system for electricity in that regard needs some examination

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563153#Comment_119563153

This week's big news in renewables is they've figured out how to replace silver in solar panels with copper.

That should lead to 10% drop in prices. It also means a rare metal has been replaced with a more common one. Speaking of which Iron Nitride might be a replacement for rare earth magnets. We are unlikely to run out of either of them anytime soon.

Fuel from energy will be getting cheaper.

Ask the RSPB about fossil fuels. Renewables are the lesser evil.

KildareP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563988#Comment_119563988

Nuclear is down for the same reason we are now facing shortages - aging plant, baseload plants being operated as peaking plants to complement wind which they were never designed to do causing increased wear and tear, and absolute no plans made to match increasing demand with new generation bar wind and solar which are not dispatchable.

You dismiss nuclear as being too costly and needing peaking plants yet still, to this day, no-one can come up with the investment needed to make our grid 100% renewable and wind needs more than just peaking plants to complement extended calm periods, but we should plough on blindly with wind regardless?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563988#Comment_119563988

And yet still, Currently 68% of France's electricity production is from nuclear and only 15% from gas. 5% is from wind.

Whereas here, 68% of our energy is coming from gas and 9.8% from wind. Yet somehow, you manage to concoct some fantasy that nuclear energy is a bad source, while France's low CO2 energy grid continues to make our renewables based fantasy look like a sick joke.

France's nuclear reactors are old and need some maintainance after 30 years of operation, but their long term performance in terms of reducing CO2 over decades of opertion is unquestionable, except by you, of course. If they were wind turbines they would have completely fallen apart and and needed complete replacement a decade prior. The current crop of nuclear builds have design life of 60 years, a wind farm would need all the turbines replaced twice, over the same period.

As I have said before, my Honda is 17 years old. Last year it was in a garage for the first time in it's life for 3 hours getting new front shocks fitted. Your anti nuclear French reactor unreliabilty rant is like piping up during those 3 hours in 17 years and concluding Honda is a terribly unreliable brand of car because my particular one was currently being repaired. The 17 years of not being in the garage wouldn't matter to you.

The intellectual dishonesty you exhibit continues to be jaw dropping. What's the nuclear down time in the US or south Korea, or Sweden? You'd think France was the only country with nuclear reactors they way you cherry pick. Sweden's nuclear plants have a capacity factor of 90%, in the US it's 92%, In south Korea it's 96.5% and you still lie about nuclear being unreliable, when it's the most reliable energy source by a huge margin, just as my Honda is reliable, despite one 3 hour pit stop in 17 years.

Markcheese

Snap shots of any electricity system are of questionable value - ( the key phrase is system by the way )

Nuclear largely fills the same role as coal , so baseload only - and neither are really competing with wind , new batteries flywheels and open cycle gas plants allow more wind onto the system ...

Wind will never be 100 % of the grid , but 80% is possible,and that's the target ,

And it'll still need spinning reserve , as would anything else nuclear included..

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563345#Comment_119563345

Just cos one Feb happened to be windier than average tells us nothing about Feb next year - The coldest winter weather is associated with persistant HP conditions which means FA wind energy production no matter how many windfarms you blaster the place with - btw wind performed poorly for much of last winter

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563552#Comment_119563552

You were the one blathering on about a particular illegal windfarm making some kind of significant difference to the energy mess we are in - clueless indeed!!