Energy infrastructure

richie123

roadmaster wrote: »

We start growing it and give the farmers a guarantee price so they will commit

Planning failed to convert to biomass because of the huge quantities needed would have required imported product which obviously was completely out of the question.
I wonder was the option of converting to gas turbines considered does anyone know ?

Banana Republic 1

roadmaster wrote: »

We start growing it and give the farmers a guarantee price so they will commit

The problem with that is farmers like everyone follow the money and land is then used to grow stuff for these plants reducing the usage for food.

In Germany many family farms are being bought up by corporates who also want to cash in, if that happened in Ireland then society would be changed.

Sam Russell

richie123 wrote: »

Planning failed to convert to biomass because of the huge quantities needed would have required imported product which obviously was completely out of the question.
I wonder was the option of converting to gas turbines considered does anyone know ?

The turbines are not close to the gas pipes. Small problem.

richie123

Sam Russell wrote: »

The turbines are not close to the gas pipes. Small problem.

Ah I see there always a simple explanation.

Pete_Cavan

Given the turf plants are located beside cut away bogs, could they grow short rotation coppice or the like there? I'm sure there wouldn't be enough to sustain a plant on a constant basis but they could stockpile it and only fire up the plant for a few months over winter each year.

Probably not economical to do so but surely it is a decent solution to hold us over for a short time for a few years given the plants are already there. Growing the coppice offsets some of the carbon too.

tabby aspreme

Farmers will be slow to plant biomass in the future, unless there is a solid price guarantee for it, as currently the market for biomass is very unstable, despite all the hype when it was first introduced as a viable alternative crop.

medoc

As part of the original planning permission the plants gave to be demolished soon after closure. Hopefully sense prevails and they alter that permission to allow time to see what alternative uses might be possible on site. The days of peat there are gone but who knows what uses might be possible. It has a turbine, cooling equipment, control equipment, transformers and grid connections ready to go which might have uses. Gas is in Athlone, Tullamore or Ballinasloe. Edenderry have plans to go 100% biomas in 2024 if they secure planning permission. It’s already over 50% co fired.

medoc

medoc wrote: »

Hopefully sense prevails and they alter that permission to allow time to see what alternative uses might be possible on site.

Unlikely to be any change to the plans. These plants make no sense anymore no matter which heading you assess them under.

Interconnectors and renewables, with a small amount of gas thrown in for the short term. That's it. With the way costs for renewable (solar/wind) production have dropped off a cliff, I don't see any long term investment in anything that is not an interconnector or associated with renewable (production and/or storage).

richie123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unlikely to be any change to the plans. These plants make no sense anymore no matter which heading you assess them under.

Interconnectors and renewables, with a small amount of gas thrown in for the short term. That's it. With the way costs for renewable (solar/wind) production have dropped off a cliff, I don't see any long term investment in anything that is not an interconnector or associated with renewable (production and/or storage).

Interconnector?? So now we're depended on the British and french for our power supply.
This will end in disaster.
Renewables as a solution ?
Completely disagree.
I've said it already and I'll say it again
We could double our wind output in the morning
And if we get a cold shock for a period of weeks over the European area like we did in 2010 we well have outages like never seen before.
Eirgrid has warned about this only just yesterday.
Never a good idea to depend on anyone else for something as important as an electricity supply!!

Sam Russell

richie123 wrote: »

Interconnector?? So now we're depended on the British and french for our power supply.
This will end in disaster.
Renewables as a solution ?
Completely disagree.
I've said it already and I'll say it again
We could double our wind output in the morning
And if we get a cold shock for a period of weeks over the European area like we did in 2010 we well have outages like never seen before.
Eirgrid has warned about this only just yesterday.
Never a good idea to depend on anyone else for something as important as an electricity supply!!

There is a third solution.

If there was a feed-in tariff, plus smart meters, Eirgrid could reduce demand through the smart meters turning off unnecessary demand during tight supply times. With the feed-in tariff, small generators such as PV arrays, or biogas powered generators, and the use of EV batteries to feed power back into the grid.

Now if EV vehicles are 50% of the stock of vehicles, then that is a lot of stored energy. Remember, not all EVs are domestic cars. Now the take up of EVs will increase in the next 5 years, but will not reach 50% within a decade, but still.

The big problem is the closing down of nuclear plant in Europe as it ages out and is not replaced. The UK will be out of nuclear in a decade if they continue to upset the Chinese.

Of course, we could insulate our houses better and use public transport and bikes more.

richie123

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a third solution.

If there was a feed-in tariff, plus smart meters, Eirgrid could reduce demand through the smart meters turning off unnecessary demand during tight supply times. With the feed-in tariff, small generators such as PV arrays, or biogas powered generators, and the use of EV batteries to feed power back into the grid.

Now if EV vehicles are 50% of the stock of vehicles, then that is a lot of stored energy. Remember, not all EVs are domestic cars. Now the take up of EVs will increase in the next 5 years, but will not reach 50% within a decade, but still.

The big problem is the closing down of nuclear plant in Europe as it ages out and is not replaced. The UK will be out of nuclear in a decade if they continue to upset the Chinese.

Of course, we could insulate our houses better and use public transport and bikes more.

Part of the solution yes I would agree with you.
One problem though if we have 500000 electric cars on the road in 10 years time we'll need an extra 30000 mw of extra power to cater to those extra cars.
I'm all for wind turbines and renewables but we need a way to store it and store in huge volumes.
Pump hydro though expensive as in turlough hill and the oncoming project in silvermines we need a lot more of them types of projects.
We should not be relying on Boris Johnson or Macroon through interconnectors.

tom1ie

richie123 wrote: »

Part of the solution yes I would agree with you.
One problem though if we have 500000 electric cars on the road in 10 years time we'll need an extra 30000 mw of extra power to cater to those extra cars.
I'm all for wind turbines and renewables but we need a way to store it and store in huge volumes.
Pump hydro though expensive as in turlough hill and the oncoming project in silvermines we need a lot more of them types of projects.
We should not be relying on Boris Johnson or Macroon through interconnectors.

The interconnectors are also a way of exporting energy when we have an excess.
We have masses amounts of wind energy that we should, and will be harnessing.
The interconnectors allow us to sell this excess when it comes on stream, it will also act as a backup when we don’t have enough power generated.

But your also correct. We need to solve the storage issue big time.

richie123

tom1ie wrote: »

The interconnectors are also a way of exporting energy when we have an excess.
We have masses amounts of wind energy that we should, and will be harnessing.
The interconnectors allow us to sell this excess when it comes on stream, it will also act as a backup when we don’t have enough power generated.

But your also correct. We need to solve the storage issue big time.

True but knowing our luck we'll be screwed for any excess we have to export it's usually at off peak times when power is worth far less ..
I'm not against interconnectors per se
Just it nots a complete solution

Sam Russell

richie123 wrote: »

Part of the solution yes I would agree with you.
One problem though if we have 500000 electric cars on the road in 10 years time we'll need an extra 30000 mw of extra power to cater to those extra cars.
I'm all for wind turbines and renewables but we need a way to store it and store in huge volumes.
Pump hydro though expensive as in turlough hill and the oncoming project in silvermines we need a lot more of them types of projects.
We should not be relying on Boris Johnson or Macroon through interconnectors.

We will build more capacity, but yes, it will be tricky if it all must be zero carbon. We cannot rely solely on wind, though off-shore would increase our reach, so we need more conservation of energy, and other renewables, plus more storage.

richie123

richie123 wrote: »

True but knowing our luck we'll be screwed for any excess we have to export it's usually at off peak times when power is worth far less ..
I'm not against interconnectors per se
Just it nots a complete solution

Who said it was?

Sam Russell

Interconnectors are essential as part of renewables.

If there is a high pressure area stuck over Ireland in November with clear air and no cloud, we will have no wind and minus a lot temperatures. This causes zero wind energy and high electricity demand.

We would need power from somewhere.

antoinolachtnai

https://eaireland.com/our-zero-e-mission-future-report-published-today/

This is quite an interesting report on the topic.

Deleted User

From the main page

In summary the key findings were:

• The all-island electricity System in 2030 will be different in scale and configuration from the system we see on the Island today.
• The system will be 40% larger in capacity and will emit half of the carbon emissions of today.
• In 2030 we will need all planned electricity interconnectors: North-South, Ireland-UK and Ireland-France in place. Back-up generation fuelled by natural gas will be essential but used less.
• In cold, windless and cloudy conditions where electricity demand is high but weather dependant generation is low we will need all back-up generation to be available and all storage and system flexibility to be maximised.
• A much more flexible and agile electricity grid will be needed to absorb the projected level of weather dependant generation.

Reaffirms what I said in an earlier post

Deleted User wrote: »

Unlikely to be any change to the plans. These plants make no sense anymore no matter which heading you assess them under.

Interconnectors and renewables, with a small amount of gas thrown in for the short term. That's it. With the way costs for renewable (solar/wind) production have dropped off a cliff, I don't see any long term investment in anything that is not an interconnector or associated with renewable (production and/or storage).

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Interconnectors are essential as part of renewables.

If there is a high pressure area stuck over Ireland in November with clear air and no cloud, we will have no wind and minus a lot temperatures. This causes zero wind energy and high electricity demand.

We would need power from somewhere.

Just wondering if we build the floating turbines in the north Atlantic, i presume even with a low pressure period there is still a certain amount of wind there all the time?
how much that is I've no idea?

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

Just wondering if we build the floating turbines in the north Atlantic, i presume even with a low pressure period there is still a certain amount of wind there all the time?
how much that is I've no idea?

If there is no wind on land due to a high pressure area over Ireland, then it will extend over much of what we could reach by off shore turbines. To combat this we need storage, interconnector, or gas.

Insulation is also a solution - if homes are insulated to BER of B, then we will not get cold inside when it is cold outside. I include heat recover ventilation in the term insulation, as the higher the insulation, the more important efficient ventilation becomes.

Heat pumps also improve heating efficiency, and are particularly suited to the Irish climate because we do not suffer very low mean temperatures in the winter.

Maybe we should go back to wearing Aran sweaters in the winter.

roadmaster

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is no wind on land due to a high pressure area over Ireland, then it will extend over much of what we could reach by off shore turbines. To combat this we need storage, interconnector, or gas.

Insulation is also a solution - if homes are insulated to BER of B, then we will not get cold inside when it is cold outside. I include heat recover ventilation in the term insulation, as the higher the insulation, the more important efficient ventilation becomes.

Heat pumps also improve heating efficiency, and are particularly suited to the Irish climate because we do not suffer very low mean temperatures in the winter.

Maybe we should go back to wearing Aran sweaters in the winter.

Also i would say in the 10/20 years PV Panels will make massive strides in there development and will help supply the energy needs of households

Sam Russell

roadmaster wrote: »

Also i would say in the 10/20 years PV Panels will make massive strides in there development and will help supply the energy needs of households

I agree, but they do not help on a very cold and windless winter night. A feed-in tariff, and the use of the battery in the domestic EV fed back into the grid would go a long way to mitigate those shortages. Charge the EV during the day, and feed the grid at night. EVs do not need to have 100% range at all times - or even at all for some users.

Using electricity directly for heating should be outlawed.*

*[Obviously, heat pumps are a different solution - a heat pump can deliver 3 or 4 time the efficiency of resistive heating].

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there is no wind on land due to a high pressure area over Ireland, then it will extend over much of what we could reach by off shore turbines. To combat this we need storage, interconnector, or gas.

Insulation is also a solution - if homes are insulated to BER of B, then we will not get cold inside when it is cold outside. I include heat recover ventilation in the term insulation, as the higher the insulation, the more important efficient ventilation becomes.

Heat pumps also improve heating efficiency, and are particularly suited to the Irish climate because we do not suffer very low mean temperatures in the winter.

Maybe we should go back to wearing Aran sweaters in the winter.

Yeah i agree we need storage and interconnectors, for sure.

Question I'm asking though is there a constant level of wind offshore even with high pressure zones that could generate a certain min MW all the time?

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

Yeah i agree we need storage and interconnectors, for sure.

Question I'm asking though is there a constant level of wind offshore even with high pressure zones that could generate a certain min MW all the time?

Look at any weather chart when there is such a condition. There have been examples were the calm was spread over the whole of the British Isles and far out, way beyond how far an off shore turbine could function.

It is all a question of how often this occurs. That is the problem with wind - it is unreliable but it is cheap but needs back up from somewhere.

Amirani

richie123 wrote: »

Esb warning of future supply shocks and shortages today.
All we need now is a prolonged cold spell and all the hundreds of millions invested in turbines producing little to nothing will be enlightening.
Shannon bridge closed today.
Not 15 years built and it's closed.
absolute maddness.
Timeline was too quick should have ran another 5 year at the least.

The absolute madness was building the thing in the first place.

bk

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look at any weather chart when there is such a condition. There have been examples were the calm was spread over the whole of the British Isles and far out, way beyond how far an off shore turbine could function.

It is all a question of how often this occurs. That is the problem with wind - it is unreliable but it is cheap but needs back up from somewhere.

That doesn't really answer his question. Just because there is an area of high pressure, doesn't mean there is no wind, in particular out to sea and as high up as the big offshore turbines.

Of course output can vary greatly depending on wind speed, but I think it is very seldom that there is no wind at all or no wind generation.

If I'm not mistaken the bigger problem tends to be big storms, when the turbines need to be shutdown or they can be damaged due to winds being too high.

I'd be interested to read a report into wind power around Ireland and what the minimums and max's are.

BTW I find it very interesting that the warning from Eirgrid wasn't so much about wind power, it was due to a number of thermal plants (gas, etc.) being offline due to maintenance.

A good reminder that traditional thermal gas/coal/peat plants suffer from reliability and maintenance issues all the time too.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

That doesn't really answer his question. Just because there is an area of high pressure, doesn't mean there is no wind, in particular out to sea and as high up as the big offshore turbines.

Of course output can vary greatly depending on wind speed, but I think it is very seldom that there is no wind at all or no wind generation.

If I'm not mistaken the bigger problem tends to be big storms, when the turbines need to be shutdown or they can be damaged due to winds being too high.

I'd be interested to read a report into wind power around Ireland and what the minimums and max's are.

BTW I find it very interesting that the warning from Eirgrid wasn't so much about wind power, it was due to a number of thermal plants (gas, etc.) being offline due to maintenance.

A good reminder that traditional thermal gas/coal/peat plants suffer from reliability and maintenance issues all the time too.

Storms tend to be short lived - maybe 12 to 15 hrs at most, but they can be very damaging and dangerous. These are the result of deep low pressure.

However a calm high pressure event can last for a week if it is a blocking high. I am not sure how high the calm reaches but it is probably many times the highest turbine. As a side effect, if there is no cloud, then the ground temperature drops a lot, and that in turn increases energy demand.

Everything needs maintenance - even a Port Tunnel.

[I am not a meteorologist].

richie123

Amirani wrote: »

The absolute madness was building the thing in the first place.

The absolute maddness was building a peat instead of a gas plant.

bk

bk wrote: »

I'd be interested to read a report into wind power around Ireland and what the minimums and max's are.

Lots of info related to energy generation in all forms here

https://www.seai.ie/data-and-insights/seai-statistics/key-publications/

Report specific to renewables - https://www.seai.ie/resources/publications/Renewable-Energy-in-Ireland-2019.pdf

Sam Russell

richie123 wrote: »

The absolute maddness was building a peat instead of a gas plant.

There was lots of peat there and no gas. There was employment required which a peat fire would generate, while gas would just generate electricity.

Politically, peat it was.