Energy infrastructure

MightyMunster · 10-02-2023 10:11am

The problem with 20% hydrogen is the other 80%. If this is to be fossil gas it's only a short term use of hydrogen so mightn't be worth spending huge money on

bk · 10-02-2023 12:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222865#Comment_120222865

As mentioned above, the last 80% can be biogas and syngas.

What the actual percentage mix of hydrogen/biogas/syngas will be will likely come down to what is most economic overall.

“For those concerned with NOx emissions an incentive program to replace gas hobs with induction hobs should be looked at. NOx indoors in your face is potentially more risk than being generated at a power plant.”

Yes, I’ve got to say open gas hobs and fires in homes is complete madness. They produce a massive amount of NOX right in your home. Lot of evidence that it is linked to increased asthma levels, etc. I suspect that in future we will look back at it in the same way as we look at cigarette’s today or lead in Diesel or asbestos.

If you have one, do yourself a favour and replace it with an induction hob.

“Concerning adding hydrogen to the gas network to get a 5% CO2 reduction, the other side of the coin reducing heat demand of existing housing stock. One Stop Shop is great in theory but a tiny portion of the population have the money for it and it's very heat pump focused. A zero up front cost scheme could be implemented that focuses on getting building fabric improvements done rather than that and heating system replacement. Doing this without corruption/moral hazard would prove difficult, this must be acknowledged.”

I think about this a lot for myself. I live in an apartment, it is a pretty nice BER B3 or so with natural gas heating.

How can I really improve this though, I don’t think I can improve the insulation without losing more interior space which is already not great in an apartment. I also can’t see what I can do with the boiler. Heat pump is not an option as where do you put it?

I suppose ideally my building should be hooked up to a district heating system or the building itself could do a building wide one. But no sign of anything like that from DCC and good luck getting the building management to do anything like that!

I do wonder if biogas might just be easier given our countries rural industry and the need to decarbonise farm waste anyway.

Markcheese · 10-02-2023 1:05pm

The problem with bio-gas is how much fossil fuel energy it takes to produce the nice green clean bio-gas .

Or to put it another way if you powered the whole process with bio-gas ( including fertilizer) would there be any net gain ?

To have any chance of an energy "gain " you need to be using animal waste in the process ( slurry basically ) , so growing harvesting and transporting and ensiling maize / grass clover ect to an A/D plant , and transporting slurry to the plant , and then transporting digestate back to the farm for storage / spreading

All that equipment ,process already exists and is in place.

The A/D plants aren't particularly complicated ,or novel either

Siting them is going to be a nightmare , small plants in every village ? Individual planning applications and local protests

Large regional plants mean much more road haulage, positioned near towns( road hubs ) , but more efficient operation, and easier for gas injection or storage ..

In a way the ideal would be on farm , with one farmer building and operating the plant and neighbouring farmers supplying crops and waste,and receiving the waste back

Markcheese · 10-02-2023 2:23pm

Isn't Nox a serious greenhouse gas ? (Directly or indirectly )

Capt'n Midnight · 10-02-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223667#Comment_120223667

Depends on how you do it. Sewage farms are frequently powered by electricity produced from the methane coming off the anaerobiotic digesters.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224000#Comment_120224000

Not sure. Lightning produced NOX makes up about 1% of nitrogen fixation in the nitrogen cycle so there will always be some in the atmosphere.

Markcheese · 10-02-2023 10:49pm

Isn't that the point ? There's no point in setting up a system that produces only enough power to run the system

You need a net gain in energy, ( including the diesel for tilling,fertillizing harvest,and transport ,

There's also a lot of Nox from nitrogen fertilizer .. ( I think )

cnocbui · 10-02-2023 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223418#Comment_120223418

I have a hob that is both gas and induction. I can assure you from experience that having a gas hob and a wood burning stove has been useful during extended power cuts on several occasions.

NOX is 298 times more potent a GHG than CO2 by weight.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 11-02-2023 2:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222865#Comment_120222865

80% natural fossil gas mix is totally fine so long as the whole grid is not on it. If the grid gets up toward 75% renewables there is less issue using fossil gas for the thin end of the wedge. Don't fight the diminishing return with taxpayers money.

Gas turbine plants will probably be around for another century if green hydrogen production doesn't get off the ground.

Capt'n Midnight · 11-02-2023 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226601#Comment_120226601

A wood burning stove would emit hundreds of times more PM 2.5 particulates than a gas boiler so not ideal for continuous use in a city unless something like an internal gasifier was used which essentially converts it to a gas burner. Might be interesting for the future.

I've no idea where cheapo Chinese Diesel Heaters using biodiesel would fall on the NOX or particulates or Carbon Monoxide scale when used as a backup heater.

For commercial power exhaust NOX is measured in parts per million, exhaust CO2 is measured in % , it's not a major contributor to greenhouse emissions but it's nasty stuff to breath in. Clean burn or scrubbing with things like AdBlue will reduce it , but jet engines on airliners would still be a problem.

MightyMunster · 11-02-2023 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120227270#Comment_120227270

If it's only being used for power plants is there any reason not to just have 100% green hydrogen? I thought the 20% max hydrogen was for the gas grid

11-02-2023 2:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221049#Comment_120221049

Well, the Moneypoint Offshore Wind "proposal" is still going, whether anything comes from it is anyone's guess.

Early days. Over a year since Foreshore Licence application submitted, nothing unusual there, in Ireland they can take years, but have heard no more to be issues for the moment, until then ESB can't even have a site investigation survey done. Licences issued on the east coast were given to legacy projects that have been in the pipeline for over 15 years. Going forward all to be handled by the new Maritime Area Regulatory Authority (MARA), whenever they get up and functioning.

Little wonder Equinor (and others) have pulled out of Ireland, leaving ESB with basically zero knowledge about how to even begin to tackle a project like this.

cnocbui · 11-02-2023 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228364#Comment_120228364

Burning hydrogen in a gas turbine generates 3 times the NOX emissions compared to NG. This can be reduced significantly through water injection, but doing that significantly lowers the efficiency and amount of energy generated. The round trip efficiency of hydrogen as an energy storage medium and underpinning of a net zero grid strategy - Such as the ESB's plan for Ireland, really looks questionable.

Water injection sounds simple but it isn't remotely, requiring vast quantities of distilled water, not tap water or that from a river, and it reduces the lifespan of the turbines and the efficiency of the turbine as the water reduces the compbustion temperature and so reduces the effiiciency and amount of electricity generated. There is another technique being trialled so as to avoid water injection, but it looks to be 25% less efficient than a conventional NG powered turbine.

Busman Paddy Lasty · 11-02-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228364#Comment_120228364

As mentioned the hardware isn't there yet to burn only hydrogen while maintaining the same NOx emissions as natural gas.

cnocbui · 11-02-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228416#Comment_120228416

15 years for a bike lane, 30 years to build a children's hospital. What a great planning system and culture. That's Ireland, for you.

In Oct 2016, in South Australia, the grid suffered a catastrophic failure as it was over reliant on wind generation, and when a big storm hit, wind farms feathered the blades and stopped generating, leading to a sudden huge demand on an interconnector which caused that to shutdown also.

By Dec 2017, they commissioned the worlds largest grid storage battery to solve the problem - 14 months.

14-02-2023 5:45pm

36 offshore wind farms are going through various stages of development and planning at the moment.

7 are likely to be in place before 2030 (one hopes) but planning delays at ABP may scupper timelines

https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/energy-firms-have-sights-on-developing-36-wind-farms-off-irelands-coasts-42341739.html

cnocbui · 14-02-2023 6:15pm

I am eagerly awaiting the details on financing of these.

14-02-2023 9:20pm

If anyone is bored, throw a vote into this poll, I'm curious to see how it might stack up against the WEI survey on the same topic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058284296/would-you-support-a-windfarm-in-your-area

Markcheese · 14-02-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240636#Comment_120240636

Honestly it's going to be interesting,

Even small changes in intrest rates will make a huge difference especially on a capital heavy project ..

josip · 14-02-2023 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241614#Comment_120241614

Most of the finance wouldn't have to be drawn down though until the construction phase though? Which is quite short relative to other capital heavy projects...

Capt'n Midnight · 15-02-2023 12:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058282407/eirgrid-to-demerge-soni

From Politics - not sure what this would mean to the single energy market given that there's a few big power plants up there that have seen better days.

Birdnuts · 15-02-2023 1:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120240524#Comment_120240524

Government seem to have handed over energy and planning polices to WEI. Would explain the many and ongoing attempts by them to butcher the Aahaus Directive and other citizen environmental rights in this space

eire4 · 15-02-2023 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241337#Comment_120241337

Seems to be pretty closely correlated. 76% in favour after I voted.

DumbBrunette · 17-02-2023 4:50pm

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/02/17/multi-million-euro-mayo-gas-peaking-power-plant-plans-before-council/

Planning application for a part hydrogen fuelled 114MW peaker plant in Mayo.

Apogee · 17-02-2023 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120253873#Comment_120253873

Constant Energy are also behind the hydrogen project. Above potentially addresses some of MCC concerns about the lack of access for the hydrogen onto GNI network and provides an alternative outlet. It also avoids transport via road, which was another of their concerns.

Planning files/drawings are here. Revised layout shows electrolysis plant (electrolysers 29 and storage 34) and OCGT (14)

20-02-2023 6:34pm

The seabed survey for phase 2 of the offshore Arklow Wind Park has been completed

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/02/20/sse-completes-key-seabed-survey/

Apogee · 22-02-2023 9:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221049#Comment_120221049

Some slides from the webinar. The full video is due to be posted on the moneypoint website.

24-02-2023 7:01pm

Public consultation launched on the draft second Offshore Renewable Energy Development Plan (OREDP II)

Press release

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/87c19-minister-ryan-launches-consultation-on-the-next-phase-of-offshore-renewable-energy-in-ireland/#

And the link to the consultation, full plan and supporting materials at the link below

https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/7ad6f-the-second-offshore-renewable-energy-development-plan-oredp-ii-public-consultation/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/OffshoreEnergyPlan/

SeanW · 25-02-2023 12:15am

Regarding the poll referenced above showing a supermajority support for wind farms, I guess it just goes to prove the old saying from WWII to be painfully accurate "tell a lie, make it big and keep repeating it." This is the only logical explanation for support for expensive, unreliable, ugly, bat killing, bird chomping monstrosities. I still have no idea why the eco types want to drive all the bats and large birds to extinction, or why it's supposedly "green" to industrialise the landscape on a scale literally unprecedented in human history. Nevertheless, it seems, here we are.