Energy infrastructure

Capt'n Midnight

Over supply of turbines could double the time we get wind power if I've read it right. In the real world you'd export or store or use the excess power.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55279337

It's a lawful practice called derating - for example taking a 900kW turbine and restricting its output to 250kW to qualify for the most generous band.

Even with its output restricted, a derated turbine with bigger blades spins at the maximum capacity for longer than a 250kW turbine, earning more money.

Cloughmills businessmen Brian and Liam McGuckian have replaced two 250kW turbines with 900kW turbines which have been derated.

Their architects believed that their clients could double their income in ROCs by doing so.

Sam Russell

Derating makes sense.

For example if a wind produces full power, and a half that wind produces half power, and the price is determined by notional power declared, then if the turbine is de-rated by 50%, it will be paid full price when the wind blows full or half speed, and it blows half speed more of the time.

So de-rated gives better return. That is engineering.

Cash-for-ash v2.0

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Cash-for-ash v2.0

Well, it could be, but not really.

If I run a big car with a little engine with a tiny output, I need to run the engine at maximum power to just move along, and when I hit a hill, I would find it tricky to get to the top, and I might not make it. Think Citroen 2CV, fully loaded with a few heavy rugby players, screaming trying to get up a hill in first gear. On the other hand, a car with loads of spare power barely gets above tick over on the level and has no problem at any stage, no matter the load. The engine is only overtaxed by the Government Motor Tax.

It is a design equation - you design a turbine to be able to give max power at anything above a zephyr, but stop it exceeding its max power even in a gale. This gives the best result for the grid. No extra cash for ash, but maybe an extra win for less spin.

The turbine operator has designed its output to get more operational power output for the given wind profile.

sweet_trip

My power cut last night for about 15 minutes and when I looked at the ESB outage map there was a number of other powercuts around the country that happened in or around the same time as mine. between 17:00 and 21:00.

Is this related to the amber alert we heard about last week?

According to this Irish examiner article it says the amber alert was issued due to the highest power consumption since 2010.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40188786.html

Eirgrid, the company which runs Ireland's national grid says electricity Consumption levels climbed to 5,357 Megawatts - a 245 MW increase on the previous record set last Thursday

When I looked at eirgrid last night it said we peaked at 6509 MW.





Could this the start of rolling blackouts or am I misinterpreting this?

gjim

Sam Russell wrote: »

Derating makes sense.

For example if a wind produces full power, and a half that wind produces half power, and the price is determined by notional power declared, then if the turbine is de-rated by 50%, it will be paid full price when the wind blows full or half speed, and it blows half speed more of the time.

So de-rated gives better return. That is engineering.

Yep, it's good for everyone - it encourages more smoother supply which puts less demand on the grid in terms of capacity and storage.

It helps provide less volatile electricity prices which is good for consumers.

It also works for the generating companies because the wear on the turbine is in proportion to the amount of electricity generated - so over the lifetime of the turbine they're not losing anything by capping output during times when electricity is in least demand and thus demands the least price. The saved wear and tear can be "used" later when demand is higher.

antoinolachtnai

sweet_trip wrote: »

My power cut last night for about 15 minutes and when I looked at the ESB outage map there was a number of other powercuts around the country that happened in or around the same time as mine. between 17:00 and 21:00.

Is this related to the amber alert we heard about last week?

According to this Irish examiner article it says the amber alert was issued due to the highest power consumption since 2010.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40188786.html


When I looked at eirgrid last night it said we peaked at 6509 MW.

Could this the start of rolling blackouts or am I misinterpreting this?

There was no amber alert at that time.

https://www.sem-o.com/market-messages/message/index.xml?message=2890

These alerts only last for a short time, a matter of hours. An amber alert doesn’t entail blackouts. That would happen in context of a red alert.

The core of the Irish grid has a lot of capacity. We got through the winter in 18-19 without the biggest station (Moneypoint).

That said the local distribution grid is not very dense because of the very spread out settlement pattern. A weather event or some other disruption can certainly cause outages at the local level.

Poulgorm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There was no amber alert at that time.

https://www.sem-o.com/market-messages/message/index.xml?message=2890

The core of the Irish grid has a lot of capacity. We got through the winter in 18-19 without the biggest station (Moneypoint).

That said the local distribution grid is not very dense because of the very spread out settlement pattern. A weather event or some other disruption can certainly cause outages at the local level.

Charging electric cars will put a huge demand on the grid - coming at us in a few years time. This will cause problems, particularly when any reinforcement of the transmission grid takes about 10 years, from conception to commencement of construction - due to our planning appeals system.

Sam Russell

Poulgorm wrote: »

Charging electric cars will put a huge demand on the grid - coming at us in a few years time. This will cause problems, particularly when any reinforcement of the transmission grid takes about 10 years, from conception to commencement of construction - due to our planning appeals system.

Smart meters might take the strain off the grid as it will allow users to elect to shed load at times of high demand for a price benefit. Industrial users would be the first call, but domestic users could also benefit. Obviously a feed in tariff would also be part of the solution.

Poulgorm

Poulgorm wrote: »

Charging electric cars will put a huge demand on the grid - coming at us in a few years time. This will cause problems, particularly when any reinforcement of the transmission grid takes about 10 years, from conception to commencement of construction - due to our planning appeals system.

The network and generation scales to demand, always has, always will.

Electric cars, data centers, factories, population growth etc won't change that

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The network and generation scales to demand, always has, always will.

Electric cars, data centers, factories, population growth etc won't change that

Lead time is the only fly in that ointment.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Lead time is the only fly in that ointment.

That's what IROPI is for

Markcheese

Electric cars in themselves aren't likely to cause massive grid problems ,especially since peak charging is probably going to at night which is also lowest demand ,
Some form of smart meter and variable pricing system is probably necessary just to prevent people getting home at 6 ' o clock on a December evening plugging the car in to charge , putting the Christmas lights on , and switching on every appliance In the house .,
Even basic night rate electricity would do it ..
Plus not everyone is going to go out tomorrow and buy electric cars , it's coming soon but not overnight ..

Banana Republic 1

Markcheese wrote: »

Electric cars in themselves aren't likely to cause massive grid problems ,especially since peak charging is probably going to at night which is also lowest demand ,
Some form of smart meter and variable pricing system is probably necessary just to prevent people getting home at 6 ' o clock on a December evening plugging the car in to charge , putting the Christmas lights on , and switching on every appliance In the house .,
Even basic night rate electricity would do it ..
Plus not everyone is going to go out tomorrow and buy electric cars , it's coming soon but not overnight ..

What does a household do if their on 24hr urban rate. It cost to get the esb to install a night rate meter.

Markcheese

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

What does a household do if their on 24hr urban rate. It cost to get the esb to install a night rate meter.

Yeah it does , and there'll probably be cost to convert to smart meters when they finally roll out in a big way, I don't know wether you'll be able to put that cost on your bill over a couple of years , there's obviously a cost for the electric car too , hopefully you'll save money between no petrol / diesel bill and the night rate electricity ..

Cookiemunster

Markcheese wrote: »

Yeah it does , and there'll probably be cost to convert to smart meters when they finally roll out in a big way, I don't know wether you'll be able to put that cost on your bill over a couple of years , there's obviously a cost for the electric car too , hopefully you'll save money between no petrol / diesel bill and the night rate electricity ..

Aren't the ESB installing smart meters free of charge to all homes? I know I got a letter recently retelling me that they'd be changing out my meter in the next few months.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/existing-connection/meters-readings/smart-meter-upgrade/background

blindsider

Smart meters are free - had one installed recently and I got a letter to confirm €0.

Sam Russell

blindsider wrote: »

Smart meters are free - had one installed recently and I got a letter to confirm €0.

Did you apply for it, or was it offered, or just installed?

I had a new gas meter installed a few years ago, and the new one is not smart in any meaning on the word. It is installed under the stairs in a very dark place with a tiny tiny LCD screen that is next to impossible to read. It could be remote read with the appropriate little add on - but it does not have it. The old one was a large analogue dial that could be read no bother. Now they meter readers do not bother even ringing the door bell. I have not had it read in nearly a year, and no idea what the reading is. As I said, not smart at all.

hans aus dtschl

Sam Russell wrote: »

Did you apply for it, or was it offered, or just installed?

I had a new gas meter installed a few years ago, and the new one is not smart in any meaning on the word. It is installed under the stairs in a very dark place with a tiny tiny LCD screen that is next to impossible to read. It could be remote read with the appropriate little add on - but it does not have it. The old one was a large analogue dial that could be read no bother. Now they meter readers do not bother even ringing the door bell. I have not had it read in nearly a year, and no idea what the reading is. As I said, not smart at all.

They're rolling them out for everyone. No request or cost, just installed.
There are no screen readings, it's just meter that's read by remote scan without opening the meter-box door. They hope in the future to have more real-time information, so I presume something like a wifi connection or something like that, but that's not available yet.

Sam Russell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

They're rolling them out for everyone. No request or cost, just installed.
There are no screen readings, it's just meter that's read by remote scan without opening the meter-box door. They hope in the future to have more real-time information, so I presume something like a wifi connection or something like that, but that's not available yet.

I think that is just remote reading.

Smart meters will be far more active. They should be able to shed load if instructed to do so, for example delaying night rate which will delay charging your EV for example. It could get much more sophisticated - such as feeding your EV power back into the grid, reducing your range, but also reducing your bill. Clearly this would be elective as most EVs have more range than they need every day, but less than they need for a long journey that is seldom taken.

Here's one that might be of interest to folks on this thread.

Banana Republic 1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Aren't the ESB installing smart meters free of charge to all homes? I know I got a letter recently retelling me that they'd be changing out my meter in the next few months.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/existing-connection/meters-readings/smart-meter-upgrade/background

Do you have to be an electric Ireland customer ?

RandomViewer

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Do you have to be an electric Ireland customer ?

Meter belongs to ESB networks, wouldn't matter who you get your bill from

tom1ie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here's one that might be of interest to folks on this thread.

Great video thanks.

tom1ie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's what IROPI is for

What’s IROPI?

IROPI stands for imperative reasons of overriding public interest

IROPI include situations where there is no alternative solution or where there are reasons of a social or economic nature for the project to proceed. If there are such reasons then the proposed development can be allowed so long as compensatory measures are taken to ensure the overall coherence of Natura 2000 is protected (Article 6(4) of the Habitats Directive).

Compensation is covered here

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/nature/natura2000/management/docs/art6/guidance_art6_4_en.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi8wZ-C0dztAhUGURUIHVP_AykQFjAOegQIExAB&usg=AOvVaw1xgVa3Q_PpdFIKLGaWqfDk&cshid=1608470204534

There's a load more on Google if you want to know more but that's the jist of it

Apogee

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/eu-uk_trade_and_cooperation_agreement-a_new_relationship_with_big_changes-overview_of_consequences_and_benefits.pdf

antoinolachtnai

Worth reading in conjunction with this.

https://www.sem-o.com/market-messages/message/index.xml?message=2941

CatInABox

ESB rapid-response gas plants will back up renewables

Paywall, but here's the highlights:

The ESB is to begin construction of a new gas-fuelled power plant near Blanchardstown in west Dublin in the summer, as it seeks planning permission for two other gas generators in the capital.

The new 75 MW gas peaking plant in Corduff, just north of Blanchardstown, is being developed by the ESB in response to a multi-year capacity programme by Eirgrid called DS3.

“Construction is due to start in summer 2021, and the plant is expected to be operational by the end of 2022.”

The ESB told this newspaper it was also embarking on its first major battery projects at existing ESB sites at Inchicore in Dublin 8 and Aghada in Co Cork. Battery energy storage systems will deliver 60MW at Inchicore and 38MW at Aghada generating station, supporting the national grid in providing storage capacity and stability for times of low wind.

tom1ie

This seems interesting:

https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/90483-hydrogen-storage-goes-solidstate
Website:

https://www.h2gopower.com/

Eu backed project which allows excess electricity generated from renewables to be converted to hydrogen via electrolysis and then stored in a solid state at 70 bar. (Pressure of a coffee machine!)
The solid Hydrogen is easily converted back to electricity via a coupled fuel cell.
This could be the future and seems to make a lot of sense.