Energy infrastructure

MAULBROOK

Markcheese wrote: »

I assume if we as nation move to more evs , and more electric heating ,( water and space ),and then use smart metering the grid utilization should increase -which should help keep electricity costs down , even with more use of hydrogen ,and batteries ect
( And I know there'll be massive grid investment, but spread out over the whole population and time )

Not a hope in power prices coming down, someone needs to pay for the loss in Petrol, Diesel taxes and the missive investment in our grid infrastructure upgrade needed.

Markcheese

MAULBROOK wrote: »

Not a hope in power prices coming down, someone needs to pay for the loss in Petrol, Diesel taxes and the missive investment in our grid infrastructure upgrade needed.

Hahahah, I said keep them down , as in lower than they could be otherwise ..
i assume the fuel taxes will be replaced by motor tax/ road tax of some sort ,
Wether that gets based on the value of the vehicle / size of the battery/ weight of the car - or just milage done - who knows ,
Home heating oil and gas ?? Well there'll still be vat , but it'd be tricky to put excise duty on electricity , although some kind of extra levy will probably be added ..

MAULBROOK

Markcheese wrote: »

Hahahah, I said keep them down , as in lower than they could be otherwise ..
i assume the fuel taxes will be replaced by motor tax/ road tax of some sort ,
Wether that gets based on the value of the vehicle / size of the battery/ weight of the car - or just milage done - who knows ,
Home heating oil and gas ?? Well there'll still be vat , but it'd be tricky to put excise duty on electricity , although some kind of extra levy will probably be added ..

Oh God not another fuxking levy.

Sam Russell

Markcheese wrote: »

Hahahah, I said keep them down , as in lower than they could be otherwise ..
i assume the fuel taxes will be replaced by motor tax/ road tax of some sort ,
Wether that gets based on the value of the vehicle / size of the battery/ weight of the car - or just mileage done - who knows ,
Home heating oil and gas ?? Well there'll still be vat , but it'd be tricky to put excise duty on electricity , although some kind of extra levy will probably be added ..

Weight of the vehicle might be a good one, or the mileage driven but expect a lot of clocking if it is introduced. Size of battery might be a useful one as well, but that might be part of weight.

I can imagine a few candles being wasted in the ERSI and the Dept of Finance thinking out all this extra tax that will be needed.

We were broke before, are broke now, and will be broke for ever more, Amen.

cnocbui

Road tax should always have been weight based. The damage/wear done to a road isn't even as low as exponential - it's a fourth power relationship. A large 18 wheel semi does the same damage as 160,000 cars. a Tesla M3 vs a petrol hatch back does about 7 times as much wear and damage.

Roads will be falling apart when EV's become the majority.

Weight seems like a good option for EV's

Looking back at pre-2008 when the tax was based on engine size, what would something like that look like for EV's? Is it even a comparable measure?

Alternatively we could go the route of the state of Victoria in Australia where they will be charged 2.5 cents a kilometre for EVs and hydrogen fuel cell cars and 2 cents for hybrids. The rate will increase with the consumer price index.

tDw6u1bj

cnocbui wrote: »

Road tax should always have been weight based. The damage/wear done to a road isn't even as low as exponential - it's a fourth power relationship. A large 18 wheel semi does the same damage as 160,000 cars. a Tesla M3 vs a petrol hatch back does about 7 times as much wear and damage.

Roads will be falling apart when EV's become the majority.

Your whole argument is based on it being a road tax, which it isn't.

It's motor tax, and yes that is a meaningful difference.

Sam Russell

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

Your whole argument is based on it being a road tax, which it isn't.

It's motor tax, and yes that is a meaningful difference.

It is a tax primarily raising revenue, just as the excise taxes on alcohol and tobacco. It raises tax. It is not ringfenced, and even if it was, it is not enough to cover the cost of the roads. Should we include the cost of Gardai that do the Roads Policing? Or the health service sticking back together the unfortunate victims of road traffic accidents?

It is a tax - call it whatever you like.

tDw6u1bj

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is a tax primarily raising revenue, just as the excise taxes on alcohol and tobacco. It raises tax. It is not ringfenced, and even if it was, it is not enough to cover the cost of the roads. Should we include the cost of Gardai that do the Roads Policing? Or the health service sticking back together the unfortunate victims of road traffic accidents?

It is a tax - call it whatever you like.

I'm well aware it's a tax and how necessary taxes are. It's not a bad word in my book.

I was just pointing out that the logic doesn't hold. The significance of the motor tax (other than adding to government coffers) is it provides disincentive to the greatest polluters. You could have a road tax too, but it would be a whole other thing.

To get back to the question, something like cross-sectional area or a new aerodynamic efficiency rating for vehicles would be a more like-for-like replacement. Failing that you could use rated power output

cnocbui

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

Your whole argument is based on it being a road tax, which it isn't.

It's motor tax, and yes that is a meaningful difference.

Well that was a predictable response I was anticipating. The motor tax is predicated on a supposed user pays for environmental impact model. First it was CO2, now it's N ₂O. The idea being a punative incentive to choose a vehicle with a lower societal cost. Motor tax by weight would be following this established principle as road provision and maintainance is a cost.

Sam Russell

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

I'm well aware it's a tax and how necessary taxes are. It's not a bad word in my book.

I was just pointing out that the logic doesn't hold. The significance of the motor tax (other than adding to government coffers) is it provides disincentive to the greatest polluters. You could have a road tax too, but it would be a whole other thing.

To get back to the question, something like cross-sectional area or a new aerodynamic efficiency rating for vehicles would be a more like-for-like replacement. Failing that you could use rated power output

At the moment, far from taxing the EV, they are giving grants and tax breaks.

Once they get to critical numbers, that will change and then the inventive tax masters will declare their plans.

Banana Republic 1

Markcheese wrote: »

Hahahah, I said keep them down , as in lower than they could be otherwise ..
i assume the fuel taxes will be replaced by motor tax/ road tax of some sort ,
Wether that gets based on the value of the vehicle / size of the battery/ weight of the car - or just milage done - who knows ,
Home heating oil and gas ?? Well there'll still be vat , but it'd be tricky to put excise duty on electricity , although some kind of extra levy will probably be added ..

Is called the PSO levy…

dubhthach

Easiest way to raise tax in event of collapse of fuel excise duty would be to bring our Local Property Tax (LPT) into line with rates charged in other European countries. Bringing us up to 1% (like in Denmark and LA by coincidence) would raise about 5billion/year. I don't expect to see any politicians flying that kite anytime soon.

Sam Russell

Mod: General taxation is not on topic.

Regards

afatbollix

Anyone watch the documentary on Hinkley point C power plant that has been on BBC recently?

Crazy money, £23 billion to build but will have 3.2 gigawatt generators for at least 35 years.

They have secured a fee of £92.50 per MW, How much is that compare to Ireland?

Capt'n Midnight

afatbollix wrote: »

Anyone watch the documentary on Hinkley point C power plant that has been on BBC recently?

Crazy money, £23 billion to build but will have 3.2 gigawatt generators for at least 35 years.

They have secured a fee of £92.50 per MW, How much is that compare to Ireland?

First of all that price is index linked and it's already started to go up

second https://www.semopx.com/#dayAhead or dig around on https://www.sem-o.com/

Capt'n Midnight

afatbollix wrote: »

Anyone watch the documentary on Hinkley point C power plant that has been on BBC recently?

Crazy money, £23 billion to build but will have 3.2 gigawatt generators for at least 35 years.

http://www.tidallagoonpower.com/projects/swansea-bay/ Project cancelled.

For £13 they could have gotten 10 tidal projects totalling 3.2 gigawatt for the next 120 years. Predictable power.

cnocbui

Predictably intermittent. The grid doesn't need more intermittent sources. I wouldn't let the Chinese build a bus shelter.

gjim

afatbollix wrote: »

Anyone watch the documentary on Hinkley point C power plant that has been on BBC recently?

Crazy money, £23 billion to build but will have 3.2 gigawatt generators for at least 35 years.

They have secured a fee of £92.50 per MW, How much is that compare to Ireland?

It doesn't actually make any financial sense the more you read about it. The National Audit Office calculated the cost to consumers (of the guaranteed strike price to justify its build) at 50B.

This thing was planned more than 10 years ago when the electricity generation scene was very different. Renewables have dropped in price by 80-90% in the last ten years. The electricity generation world has been transformed by this.

For example, looking at the LCOE here - https://www.lazard.com/perspective/lcoe2020 - you can see that the middle of the LCOE price band for Nuclear (in 2020) is about $170/MWh while that for onshore wind is about $40. And wind generation costs are predicted to continue to drop. In contrast the LCOE for nuclear has been rising for decades - the gap is only going to get wider and wider.

For 20B pounds you could install 25GW of onshore wind and probably have it running in a year. And that's using 2020 prices. In ten years, the same amount of money will buy you double that. My prediction is that in 2030 years, Hinkley C will look like an expensive dinosaur and a huge mistake.

And yes nuclear isn't intermittent but neither can it's output be quickly adjusted to fluctuating demand which creates its own difficulties in matching grid demand and supply. While the incredible cheapness of wind means the intermittency isn't as big a deal as some predicted - using derating for example sounds crazy but is financially viable.

And in the near future after the world has switched to BEVs, the intermittency will be even less of an issue. And we have falls in grid-scale battery storage costs to look forward to - the cost has fallen by 98% in the last 12 years - it's starting to actually look viable. Who knows what the future will bring in terms of technology - there are so many promising fronts being explored at the moment - backed by big money - that committing to a 25B fission nuclear plant for 60 years is nuts.

loyatemu

interesting idea here - wind energy using "kites"

https://www.kitemill.com/

josip

loyatemu wrote: »

interesting idea here - wind energy using "kites"

https://www.kitemill.com/

Interesting yes, but it seems like it's being run from someone's attic.
https://www.kitemill.com/page/43/History

Capt'n Midnight

josip wrote: »

Interesting yes, but it seems like it's being run from someone's attic.
https://www.kitemill.com/page/43/History

The problem with kites is that while the best, most reliable wind is higher up , the problem is how to get the power down. Any project that doesn't directly address the weight of the conductors or the problems of keeping very high voltages apart is vapourware. You can save weight by using high temperature aluminium alloys but you still need strength.


To bypass the conductors a I saw a project with kites or parachutes on a cable running through a generator on the ground. Wind pulls the kite out and you get electricity. When you reach the limit the kite collapses and you reel back in for the next cycle. Or have it balanced so each kite pulls the other one alternatively.

loyatemu

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

To bypass the conductors a I saw a project with kites or parachutes on a cable running through a generator on the ground. Wind pulls the kite out and you get electricity.

that is literally how their system works; the generator is on the ground.

Capt'n Midnight

loyatemu wrote: »

that is literally how their system works; the generator is on the ground.

cnocbui

loyatemu wrote: »

that is literally how their system works; the generator is on the ground.

Until the lightning hits.

cnocbui

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The problem with kites is that while the best, most reliable wind is higher up , the problem is how to get the power down. Any project that doesn't directly address the weight of the conductors or the problems of keeping very high voltages apart is vapourware. You can save weight by using high temperature aluminium alloys but you still need strength.


To bypass the conductors a I saw a project with kites or parachutes on a cable running through a generator on the ground. Wind pulls the kite out and you get electricity. When you reach the limit the kite collapses and you reel back in for the next cycle. Or have it balanced so each kite pulls the other one alternatively.

"Reel it back in"; using horses, I presume?

Carbon fibre conducts electricity, while being a fraction of the weight of aluminium. It's not the greatest of conductors though.

The whole thing is just incredibly stupid, IMO.

dubhthach

Not sure if this was discuss back in February but NTR bought the following

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/ntr_acquires_54mw_of_co_located_solar_and_storage_in_wexford

Investor and asset manager NTR has acquired a 54MW portfolio of co-located solar and storage projects in Co. Wexford, Ireland from RES.

It is made up of two battery storage projects with a combined capacity of 25MW along with 29MW of solar PV. The solar projects were awarded 16-year Contracts for Difference (CfD) tariffs within Ireland’s first Renewable Electricity Support Scheme (RESS) auction in August 2020.

(could do with better graphic artist )

as it's been award contract under the DS3 scheme they are guaranteed a specific tarrif rate for next 16 years.

Interesting there is a pipeline of close to 2.5GW of storage in the works at the moment:
https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/blogs/gigawatts_of_utility_scale_battery_storage_projects_in_ireland_set_to_drive

cnocbui

Are there any large scale solar installations in Ireland? I have seen a lot of mention of them being proposed but not a single photo of one actually up and running.

dubhthach

cnocbui wrote: »

Are there any large scale solar installations in Ireland? I have seen a lot of mention of them being proposed but not a single photo of one actually up and running.

At the moment I believe there are none that have completed construction. The largest solar installation in the country is I believe a rooftop 1.5MW install in Dublin.



Title: Ireland’s largest rooftop solar system installed in Dublin

Ireland’s largest rooftop solar PV array of 1.5MW was installed at Sam Denningan and Company’s national distribution centre in north Co Dublin.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/ireland-s-largest-rooftop-solar-system-installed-in-dublin-591037

In this case like most roof-top installs it's about offsetting the specific companies power usage and meeting reduced CO2 output.

With regards to Grid generation (eg. non industrial usage) Scotland has about 372MW of installed solar plant. The rest of the UK has about 13GW of Solar installed, so it shows there is potential there.

This article from 2020 (pre-pandemic) mentioned a 5 year pipeline of 500MW of solar projects:

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/01/09/ireland-set-for-a-500-mw-five-year-solar-pipeline/

MAULBROOK

dubhthach wrote: »

At the moment I believe there are none that have completed construction. The largest solar installation in the country is I believe a rooftop 1.5MW install in Dublin.



Title: Ireland’s largest rooftop solar system installed in Dublin



https://www.farmersjournal.ie/ireland-s-largest-rooftop-solar-system-installed-in-dublin-591037

In this case like most roof-top installs it's about offsetting the specific companies power usage and meeting reduced CO2 output.

With regards to Grid generation (eg. non industrial usage) Scotland has about 372MW of installed solar plant. The rest of the UK has about 13GW of Solar installed, so it shows there is potential there.

This article from 2020 (pre-pandemic) mentioned a 5 year pipeline of 500MW of solar projects:

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/01/09/ireland-set-for-a-500-mw-five-year-solar-pipeline/

Now that's impressive. I thought I was doing well with 6.2kw.