Energy infrastructure

gjim

TimeToShine wrote: »

It won't be low cost forever, remember the treasury are losing a huge amount of tax revenue from declining petrol and diesel use, no government can take that lying down. if EV uptake is as fast as hoped we can expect to see taxes levied on night-time charging or maybe a tax paid per km driven. At the end of the day you'll be on the hook in some way, no such thing as a free lunch.

Taxes on petrol and diesel account for less than 3% of the government budget. It would only require a fairly insignificant bump in taxes elsewhere to make up the loss. In the context of making the country energy independent, carbon free, emissions free and providing almost zero energy cost general transportation, it would be an absolute bargain.

Markcheese

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

Markcheese

If it's just taxes on fuel your worrying over a change in motor tax could sort that ... They changed it in 08 , so that motor tax from 08 cars now is significantly lower than it used to be ,
There could be a flat rate ev motor tax ,to encompass and replace fuel taxes ( great for those doing high mileage) ,
Maybe a weight based ev motor tax ? ( the car not the driver ðŸ˜) ,
Milage based ?
But if youre having to pay very little for the fuel then the fuel tax replacement isn't as big a deal ....

afatbollix

The UK went to value of the car at purchase point a couple of years ago for setting the tax level.

That will be what will happen I'd say.

Markcheese

afatbollix wrote: »

The UK went to value of the car at purchase point a couple of years ago for setting the tax level.

That will be what will happen I'd say.

Fairly equitable really ,
In the uk the road tax drops to a flat rate after so many years of a vehicles life , which keeps up the second hand value ( and keeps vehicles maintained and not scrapped ...)
Anyone want to hazzard a guess as to what the annual road tax would be on a fairly standard id3 / leaf priced vehicle , if you had to include the taxes and excuse that would have been paid had it been an ICE vehicle ...

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

If battery powered cars become ubiquitous, those very batteries could be used as backup storage for the grid. We need a feed-in tariff so that microgenerators can be harnessed by the grid and local storage can also take pressure off the grid when needed. Using 20% to 30% of the battery stored energy will make little difference to the owner in most cases, but cumulatively would be huge for the network in times of shortage when the wind does not blow.

The feed-in tariff would need to be highly intelligent in order to work. This would allow domestic users to allow depletion of their stored energy at a premium price, and replenished at a lower price. [I would anticipate that the difference in price would be less than 10% to 15% but would be an attractive proposition to many by reducing the energy bill].

Yep, they could be the alternative to pumped storage eg turlough hill.

The only problem is the existing distribution network may struggle to physically carry the ampage required to charge all the cars at night.
Also if the cars are charged at night, that takes care of the excess electricity that is being created, the person that owns the car then gets up and drives to work and back thus using the majority of the excess electricity that was created the previous night.
When they get home at 6 they turn on the cooker, shower, heating, lights and plug in the car (to feed back into the grid whatever they haven’t used), would the amount in the evs battery even cover the amount they are using in the house?
If not the idea wouldn’t work as the ev would have to be a net exporter at peak demand to cover the overall need.

riddlinrussell

tom1ie wrote: »

Yep, they could be the alternative to pumped storage eg turlough hill.

The only problem is the existing distribution network may struggle to physically carry the ampage required to charge all the cars at night.
Also if the cars are charged at night, that takes care of the excess electricity that is being created, the person that owns the car then gets up and drives to work and back thus using the majority of the excess electricity that was created the previous night.
When they get home at 6 they turn on the cooker, shower, heating, lights and plug in the car (to feed back into the grid whatever they haven’t used), would the amount in the evs battery even cover the amount they are using in the house?
If not the idea wouldn’t work as the ev would have to be a net exporter at peak demand to cover the overall need.

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

In this day and age, having smart technology is not really a problem.

There is the day to day cycle of energy demand and supply where, as you say, charge EV overnight, dive to work, charge at work, drive home, use excess charge to help match peak, and so on.

Then there is the weather variation where the renewables do not arrive because there is a high pressure zone over Ireland just sitting there for days. Then if that happens in November, we have below zero temperatures, and no wind.

Obviously, these types of scenarios need to be catered for, but EV batteries are a significant resource that should be built into the grid, but a feed in tariff needs to be applied, and a very intelligent tariff that causes users to modify their behaviour in a significant way to even out supply and demand.

Now that requires not just smart meters but smart users.

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

In this day and age, having smart technology is not really a problem.

There is the day to day cycle of energy demand and supply where, as you say, charge EV overnight, dive to work, charge at work, drive home, use excess charge to help match peak, and so on.

Then there is the weather variation where the renewables do not arrive because there is a high pressure zone over Ireland just sitting there for days. Then if that happens in November, we have below zero temperatures, and no wind.

Obviously, these types of scenarios need to be catered for, but EV batteries are a significant resource that should be built into the grid, but a feed in tariff needs to be applied, and a very intelligent tariff that causes users to modify their behaviour in a significant way to even out supply and demand.

Now that requires not just smart meters but smart users.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the technology didn't exist, more that it needs to be something ESB are looking into very seriously. Smart Users aren't 'strictly' required, the system just needs to be good at advertising when they can save/make the most money (when their battery is most useful to the grid)

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the technology didn't exist, more that it needs to be something ESB are looking into very seriously. Smart Users aren't 'strictly' required, the system just needs to be good at advertising when they can save/make the most money (when their battery is most useful to the grid)

That is where the smart user comes in.

Most users do not switch suppliers to avail of lower prices, so now you expect the same users to modify their behaviour to save money.

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is where the smart user comes in.

Most users do not switch suppliers to avail of lower prices, so now you expect the same users to modify their behaviour to save money.

I'm not sure if the development of smart energy users strictly fits the definition of Infrastructure... I'm hoping education would be the fix there...

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I'm not sure if the development of smart energy users strictly fits the definition of Infrastructure... I'm hoping education would be the fix there...

I would think it is equivalent to water conservation by users. Now that definitely affects infrastructure.

cgcsb

A switch to combining gas and better storage in one plant could be another carbon saving. The ramp up time of gas could be covered by batteries.

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

A switch to combining gas and better storage in one plant could be another carbon saving. The ramp up time of gas could be covered by batteries.

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable

Well..Ok. I mean nobody is talking about 100% renewable electricity. At the minute we have a lofty goal of 70% by 2030.

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

There is the proposed interconnector to France. That would be a nuclear source for the most part.

Pete_Cavan

riddlinrussell wrote: »

In a mostly EV scenario wouldn't there be some level of charging happening during the day while they are at work? Think the issue would need a very smart system that factored in usage patterns to balance battery loads and charging during a day/night cycle

How would charging at work work? Your employer would need to deduct the cost of electricity used from your wages or it is a BIK and subject to tax.

A similar scenario is that people store what they generate and use it themselves as and when they need it. PV and battery means people would charge a battery during the day and use it to charge their EV at night. There is already a grant for domestic batteries. With widespread EVs, there would likely still be plenty of demand for power from the grid over night. Its easier than a constantly changing due to multiple factors FIT, the more successful it is it could undermine commercial producers and make electricity more expensive. I can't see how it would be economical for anyone but the customer to allow people buy electricity cheap at night and have them selling into the grid for more during the day. How reliable would micro producers be and how fast would they react when needed?

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is the proposed interconnector to France. That would be a nuclear source for the most part.

Yeah the Celtic interconnector.
We have uk nuclear getting imported here via the other interconnectors anyway.

medoc

Offaly Battery storage plant due to be energised by December.

https://www.offalyexpress.ie/news/home/579091/enormous-150m-energy-project-in-offaly-at-an-advanced-stage.html

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

There are proposals to use carbon capture storage (CCS) technology to allow gas stations to be continue to be used, but to get to net zero emissions by capturing and storing the released carbon from the plants.

I remain open minded on it, but after the BS of "clean coal" and "clean diesel", I remain sceptical.

bk

BTW another very interesting potential storage technology is liquid air storage. They claim that it has capacities and costs in line with pumped hydro, but without the need for specific geography.

tom1ie

bk wrote: »

BTW another very interesting potential storage technology is liquid air storage. They claim that it has capacities and costs in line with pumped hydro, but without the need for specific geography.

Never heard of this.
Something along the lines of compressing the air and making it more energy dense (thus converting into liquid) using the excess renewable energy when available, and then the reverse when electricity is needed?

gjim

tom1ie wrote: »

If gas was (and is) included in the energy mix the grid wouldn’t be 100% renewable though.

To get to 100% renewable we need some way of storing the excess energy we create.

Another option of course is nuclear, which we import from the uk anyway.

It's not really the big problem it seems.

The LCOE measures the full cost of producing electricity - the capital cost, fuel cost, operating/maintenance costs, decommissioning costs, etc.

On this basis wind and solar already beat the traditional generation methods for most places on the planet. Also since renewables are relatively new to the scene and are in a growth phase, it's likely that there are more efficiencies/technical improvement coming down the road while I imagine the mature generation technologies have little room for improvement. The fall in price of PV panels and LI batteries over the last decade is simply incredible.

The important point is that the cost advantages of renewables is significant enough that you can simply over-provision production. For example - again using LCOE - the cheapest on-shore wind is under a third the price of the cheapest nuclear. So even if you have to leave the turbines idle for 65% of the time, you're still ahead over the lifetime of a wind farm vs that of a coal burning or nuclear power station.

But in actually fact you probably won't need to turn off the turbines - if you can even get 1c or 2c per KWh retail for the power it'll make sense to keep them running so the obvious thing would be to charge the national fleet of battery powered vehicles at such times.

So yeah gas will be in the mix for the foreseeable future but its overall contribution to electricity production will become very small. I'd hope for something like under 20%.

Perfection is the enemy of progress as they say. Deciding we have to plan for 100% renewables would be crazy in my opinion when there is a relatively straightforward and economic path to somewhere around 80% renewable. This would still be an amazing achievement given that 95% of the country's electricity was produced by burning oil, gas, coal or peat just 15 years ago.

Sam Russell

gjim wrote: »

It's not really the big problem it seems.

......
So yeah gas will be in the mix for the foreseeable future but its overall contribution to electricity production will become very small. I'd hope for something like under 20%.

Perfection is the enemy of progress as they say. Deciding we have to plan for 100% renewables would be crazy in my opinion when there is a relatively straightforward and economic path to somewhere around 80% renewable. This would still be an amazing achievement given that 95% of the country's electricity was produced by burning oil, gas, coal or peat just 15 years ago.

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

tom1ie

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

I really do see hydrogen or as (I think it was bk?) said liquid air being the storage future.
Evs are a great idea for storage but you still have to distribute the electricity to the evs via the distribution lv network which may not be able to handle a massive amount of evs charging at the same time.

If the excess electricity generated is kept on the transmission network and stored commercially in the form of hydrogen or liquid air, you get rid of that issue.

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

Never heard of this.
Something along the lines of compressing the air and making it more energy dense (thus converting into liquid) using the excess renewable energy when available, and then the reverse when electricity is needed?

Yep, pretty much it, interesting video on it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb1Nuk3_t_4

gjim

Sam Russell wrote: »

Of course, remember, that gas can be from renewable sources as well. Hydrogen can be produced by electrolysis from renewable electricity. Biogas is produced by fermenting biomass. It is likely that hydrogen could become an important source of energy for some uses.

Wave and tide will be harnessed eventually.

I agree on renewable sources of gas but it's not there yet.

Not sure about wave and tide - the idea has been on the go for a century by now and it's still always been just promising.

While it's interesting to hear about future and potential technical/engineering developments in the area, I also worry that such talk creates an impression that we're slightly helpless at the moment until some big technology breakthrough arrives. The opposite is the case - we don't have to wait to build for a carbon-free (or nearly free) energy future.

The tools are already there: develop and over-provision on-shore wind generation. It's unsightly in the countryside but it's the most economic for Ireland. It will mean a big excess of generation capacity but that capacity is not completely wasted if you actively encourage the adoption of BEVs. There may also be a market for excess electricity abroad via interconnectors. Turn off dirty power generation sources as soon as is possible except for combined cycle gas. Ensure a competitive supply of natural gas.

None of this effort will be wasted if there's a big breakthrough in the next decades in grid scale storage or other renewable sources.