Energy infrastructure

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819071#Comment_118819071

Only defenders being auctioned, ESB reader drives their own car.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819741#Comment_118819741

Just because they auctioning off Defenders, it doesn't mean it has anything to do with them buying NV200's to replace similar small vans.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1124/1094891-esb-networks-small-van-fleet-goes-electric/

"The vehicles will be used all over the country by ESB Networks staff working in metering and stores.

They will eventually replace the company's current stock of small diesel vans through this year and next."

BTW ESB has auctioned off Defenders and lots of other fleet vehicles all the time over the years, nothing new about that.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819815#Comment_118819815

5 year old ones with 48000kms on them would question why they should have half the vehicles they have, if we are being expected to pay through the nose for power some level of financial caution by the ESB would be the least I'd expect, Power companies need to make adjustments to pass on savings to customers, if this involves less staff and vehicles and paycuts for executives then let it be so,

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819836#Comment_118819836

Looking at the auction they appear to be selling just 4 defenders. Plus a bunch of other vans, etc.

This seems to be much ado about nothing and nothing to do with their EV vans.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819849#Comment_118819849

Those vehicles should be good for 10years minimum, theres been ones popping up since before Christmas, If they are only getting 5 years and less than 50k kms out of vehicles that would have cost around €70,000 new surely questions need to be as k ed, cant be preaching at people when semi-states basically building money bonfires

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819021#Comment_118819021

Dunno to be honest. I just had a look at Landrover's site and they're investing heavily in an electric future. They currently offer a range of PHEVs but are launching an "all electric" range of 6 vehicles in 2024 - https://www.landrover.com/electric/sustainability.html - not sure if the Defender is among them. Jeep in the US expect 70% of sales to be EV by 2025.

Globally EV sales are constrained by production capacity given the exponential growth. So it's not too surprising the EV revolution is lagging for niche vehicle types like the Defender.

But even ICE niches won't escape what's happening. Many don't have a good intuition for exponential growth - they look at the current 9% of global sales being EVs as being relatively insignificant but don't realise that this will translate to complete dominance (> 75% of sales) in under 6 years at current growth rates (50% per year).

The ones that suddenly do understand are the existing auto manufactures. Many have resisted and dissed EVs for years but have now realised the existential threat they face. Even if you use half the current EV sales growth rate, you're talking about more than halving of global ICE vehicle sales within 6 or 7 years. Given the margins in this industry, how would any ICE vehicle manufacturer hope to survive such a market shrinkage?

This explains the mad scramble of all the manufactures into EV. Even Toyota realise they have completely screwed things up - dissing EVs for the last decade, investing in nonsensical Hydrogen power trains - and have hastily arranged to sell rebadged EVs from a Chinese manufacture, to try to buy them some time before the ICE market crashes. Whether this will save them from going bust in 5 or 6 years, is hard to say.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818110#Comment_118818110

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818815#Comment_118818815

These Nissans are NOT a direct replacement for the land rovers.

The Nissans will more than likely be used for stations work, networks around town and rural work that doesn’t require going off road.

Diesel ford rangers and diesel Mercedes’ unimogs plus to a lesser extent diesel Mitsubishi canters (although theyd get stuck on a cow Shite!) are what do the off road work in the ESB.

Regarding the ESB EV purchases, it should be noted that while the majority of govt vehicle purchases are EV's right now, from 2023 all purchases must be EV only.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-bodies-must-buy-only-fully-electric-cars-by-2023-41249723.html

There will be exceptions made where no suitable EV equivalent is available, but as time progresses there will be fewer and fewer niches that remain unfilled by EV's.

L1011

An Post urban last mile is nearly all electric now - small vans and electric assist cargo bikes. They have a small number of breadvan sized electrics also, I would presume for depot to depot stuff in Dublin.

https://www.anpost.com/Sustainability/Climate-Action/transport-fleet-feature-story

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815838#Comment_118815838

You are not taking into account the CO2 produced in the manufacture of the EV. Also, if the use of the car was reduced, that would also reduce the CO2 emissions - this would be possible for many but not all.

The reduction of Data centres would be a good contribution to reducing CO2 emissions as well.

There lots of ways of reducing CO2 emissions, but getting everyone to spend €50,000 on an EV and scrapping a serviceable ICE is not the best use of resources. If Covid has taught us one thing, it is how easily the average office worker was able to work from home and save the commute in their single occupant diesel SUV. A bit more of that would be a good contribution to the required climate change effort.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820740#Comment_118820740

What EV 4x4s will be available next year?

More importantly what EV hiabs (the backbone of ESB networks) will be available next year?

Does this apply to the army, seen as the army will be getting an increase in spending. Will they have to buy EV 4x4’s.

This doesn’t sound like the best idea tbh.

Replace where possible yes, but let’s not be silly about it and leave ourselves stuck.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820844#Comment_118820844

Couldn't tell you, I don't follow the EV market that closely but to give you an idea of the rate of growth of EV variants, take a look at the vid below which goes through vans/commercial vehicle variants. Go back 24 months and there were many 3-4 EV variants available, now there's a buttload, the same will be the case as time goes on for most other vehicle types but obviously not all. Once you get into heavier equipment the future is less clear as its possible these will utilise hydrogen or something else rather than ICE or EV, watch this space basically.

https://youtu.be/vXa7OgLud8I

So much for nuclear, Russia are threatening to block enriched uranium exports

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russias-Proposed-Ban-On-Uranium-Exports-Sends-Stocks-Soaring.html

bk

Ironically it also turns out that the coal we use at Moneypoint power plant comes from Russia too! 🙄

This is why we need to go all in on wind + hydrogen (+ EV's and electric home heating), that will give us true security of supply. Now it isn't just about the environment, but being truly independent of insane despots sitting on oil and gas.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823214#Comment_118823214

Do we not have viable gas deposits yet to be tapped?

We do not yet have any renewable dispatchable method of generation for the times when wind/solar output is low - hydrogen has not yet been proven at grid scale (electrolysis/storage/transport and generation) and battery production wont be able to meet the demand needed for some time.

Also in other news, a possible 200k Ukrainian refugees due to be kept in Ireland in the near future - how will our grid cope with that extra demand?

bk

"What EV 4x4s will be available next year?"

Well the Ford F150 Lightning has just launched in the US, it is a 4x4 truck.

Lots of more launching this year and next from all the big US truck companies + new company Rivian. Plus lots of trucks going PHEV over there.

Of course that is in the US, it will take a while before they get to Europe, where these are a much more niche product.

"More importantly what EV hiabs (the backbone of ESB networks) will be available next year?"

Well Mercedes and Volvo are releasing EV and hydrogen truck chassis that will make the structure of vehicles like this in future.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you are saying, there aren't many options yet in these niches. I suspect the ESB will just buy whatever Diesel vehicles they need for off road work this year. That would give them a good 10+ years before they would have to consider replacing them with EV/hydrogen models. I suspect the market will be much more mature then. If no option is available, then they can get an exception.

BTW PHEV's might be a good stopgap for some of these and hydrogen might be an option for the heavier vehicles.

"Does this apply to the army, seen as the army will be getting an increase in spending. Will they have to buy EV 4x4’s."

I don't know about the Irish Army, but interestingly the US military is doing exactly that! They have a massive fleet of civilian, think administrative vehicles driving Generals around bases in the US, that they are planning to switch to EV.

Even for tactical vehicles, they seem to be very enthusiastic about PHEV's. Armour vehicles engines are extremely noisy and ineffecient, being able to run on battery for short distances or when idle can be a serious tactical advantage.

In some ways this isn't anything new. Diesel-Electric battery submarines have been around since WW1.

bk

"Do we not have viable gas deposits yet to be tapped?"

We do, we have significant fields near both Kinsale and Corrib and probably a lot more, but those would be the easiest to tap given the existing infrastructure.

"We do not yet have any renewable dispatchable method of generation for the times when wind/solar output is low - hydrogen has not yet been proven at grid scale (electrolysis/storage/transport and generation) and battery production wont be able to meet the demand needed for some time."

Another option, is that we just build way more wind then we need. Like 200%, 300% maybe even 400% of out normal daily peak. What that would mean is that even when the wind is relatively low, we could still produce 100% of our power (or near to it) by wind. This would be especially the case if we build West coast floating farms which have higher utility.

Yes, we would need to keep our gas plants on hand, plus enough supply for the odd truly windless days. But our usage would drop to a tiny percent of our current needs.

The question then becomes, what do we do with all that excess wind power on windy days? Worst case scenario, you just curtail it, wasteful, but if security of supply is paramount, then could be done. Ideally you export it over interconnectors, produce green hydrogen/ammonia, plus smart meters that heat water in homes and fill EV batteries when their is excess wind.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we leave the 4 by 4 vehicles to the motor thread.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823308#Comment_118823308

EV F150 would be a lorry licence here, too heavy

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823214#Comment_118823214

By the time we've paid for that "experiment" with our grid most of us will be reduced to living in caves with candles - as it is the amount of price gouging by energy providers(some of the worst offenders being those claiming to provide "100% Green energy" is becoming so outrageous that it has finally started to come to the attention of the those dopes in the Dail with increasing calls for the Energy Regulator to do something for the consumer instead of constant price hikes via standing charges etc. for wind developers etc.

Birdnuts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823388#Comment_118823388

Christ - I suggest you look up the definition of "insanity" if you think building more of these white elephants is a cure for any of the energy issues we are dealing with. The likes of Germany have carpeted land and Sea with them and are more reliant on imported energy than ever before

BKtje

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827072#Comment_118827072

What do you mean more reliant than ever? If they have carpeted the country with these white elephants then each should be reducing the amount of energy needed to be imported. Every KW generated by renewables is a KW less that needs to be imported and surely means that each advances the goal to energy independence. Whether the cost is worth it is another question and much more political. If you mean that their energy consumption is increasing faster than what their energy generation from renewables is would be another matter however but I don't see the evidence for that. Could you provide a source for your claim, I am honestly curious.

The following site has some interesting graphs: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts

marno21

For all the praise she gets, the decision by Angela Merkel to shut down German nuclear power plants and in the process sign over German energy security to Russia starts to look more and more demented by the day. Russia already launched military operations in Ukraine in 2014 so there is plenty of red flags there.

What have renewables got to do with this? There was no reduction in gas supply in order to facilitate renewables. Renewables have zero impact on the price of gas (unless you could the actions of authoritarian states in retaliation to Western decisions to decarbonise)

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118805695#Comment_118805695

But can you safely pull enough current from the battery at a rate that would meet peak demand? ON: Lights, TV, xbox, boiler, hob, oven, extractor. A Tesla powerwall seems to have a continuous max constant power delivery of 5Kw, which isn't enough for a power shower.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818686#Comment_118818686

"The big prize, Mr Ryan predicted, would come in the 2030s, “when we are generating the likes of 30 gigawatts of offshore wind..."

That's likely to cost around €126 billion, going by the project cost of Scotttishpower's East Anglia One project.

Glad I'm not paying that for a resource with only 52% availability - oh, wait...

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828339#Comment_118828339

A power shower is not really compatible with the scene I would encourage if power supply certainty was a goal. In fact, hot water storage should be part of any solution as it is a good sink for surplus energy from, say, PV.

In my case, no electricity is used for space heating or water heating (except the kettle). However, I do use gas for both of those - so I am not sure how I would manage without gas unless I went full-on with an overlarge PV installation with a 10Kw battery - or larger.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828339#Comment_118828339

Yeah actually that’s a good point.

Considering the main fuse in a house is 63A and has 16sqmm T+E from the ESB meter to the main fuse unit in the house I imagine the lead from the EV to the wall charger and from the wall charger to the fuse board is nowhere near that.

Sam Russell

I think that if you want to power a home with a battery installation, be it a stand alone battery or one in an EV, it needs to be planned with an installation designed to work. That is not a simple DIY job - nor is it to be taken lightly.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118829308#Comment_118829308

I assume similar principles would apply for ideas like electric car batteries feeding back into the grid when necessary - its talked about as a great utopian style solution for energy storage/dispatch, but the practicalities of it are something else.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828171#Comment_118828171

It had nothing to do with Merkel specifically - Energiewende predates her by decades. It wasn't really her decision - it was the decision of the German people who have been massively anti-nuclear since the 1980s and have voted for politicians accordingly.

The dependence on gas has nothing to do with the existence of nuclear electricity plants - most of the gas used in Europe is for domestic heating and industrial processes, not electricity generation. If anything gas displaced coal (domestic and electricity), not nuclear. If you eliminated gas from electricity production completely (15% of German electricity, just under 20% for the whole EU), regardless of how, you still have half the homes in Europe dependent on natural gas for heating.

The reduction in German nuclear capacity is a red herring - the amounts are tiny in the context of Germany electricity production (17GW retired over THREE DECADES both due to end-of-life and early retirement) compared to over 100GW of other generation capacity ADDED in the last 2 decades. Even if they had been kept going, the big batch shuttered early in 2011 would all have reached end-of-life before 2022 anyway and there's no economic justification for building replacements. To put it into perspective, contrast the 17GW over 3 decades with the 15GW of renewable capacity being added EVERY YEAR on average for the last 6 or 7 years.

And your wrong about renewables displacing natural gas for electricity generation - yes initially renewables made coal (and nuclear) uncompetitive and generally displaced coal. This was down to simple economics - natural gas was then the cheapest thermal source of electricity - so of course the more expensive forms of generation will take the hit first. But that trend has changed since about 2019 (accelerating last year for obvious reasons) and now over half of renewable generation is displacing gas (e.g. see this Bloomberg article - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-31/europe-s-renewables-are-crowding-out-gas-as-coal-phase-out-slows).

Displacing gas from domestic use will take a lot longer - for obvious reasons - there are millions of homes for every gas power plant and the alternatives (heat pumps) represent a huge capital investment for the average householder.