Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Wegians89

Wegians89 wrote: »

Seems most people seem to rate Doris as a better 8 and more likely to start for Ireland but after seeing deegan the last night surely he’s right up there too. I don’t get to see every minute of Leinster but was just wondering if there is a clear first choice between the two ?

I think I'd have looked solid enough at 8 given the attitude Connacht showed up with.

It's impossible to tell who in Leinster is really showcasing an international standard of skill, fitness and and competitiveness given the way they are turning over teams.

Probably Lyon away is the only match I've watched this season where Leinster were getting as good as they were giving and from that day Kelleher was the performance that stood out.

Doris possibly has a bit more to his game and given his fewer caps and the fact that it's a contest between him and the more experienced Deegan we might have our answer already.

Connors is the big breakthrough in the backrow though, I'd have him ahead of both Doris and Deegan, albeit he hasn't quite caught upto VDF yet.

Wegians89

molloyjh wrote: »

Doris is definitely ahead of Deegan right now. Theres a bit of daylight between the two right now but its seemed to give Deegan a kick to push on a bit. Doris has started 3 of the 4 HEC games so far and stood out against Northampton. Deegan can be guilty of switching off a bit and making the odd silly error. If this competition for the jersey can focus him a bit though he could overtake Doris again.

Long term would shifting deegan to 6 work?

Buer

As good as Deegan was, it's nearly impossible to put too much stock in any showing in that game. That's very unfair on Deegan but the fact is the match was no more strenuous than a training exercise due to Connacht's player availability.

Doris has started some big games in recent times and looked very good. Deegan is a quality player but I think Doris is a more nuggety, rounded performer at this point already. Deegan is more skilled undoubtedly but if we were playing a knock out game against Saracens tomorrow, I'd go with Doris without hesitation. Trying to accommodate them both when Conan returns will be a hard task.

Wegians89

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I'd have looked solid enough at 8 given the attitude Connacht showed up with.

It's impossible to tell who in Leinster is really showcasing an international standard of skill, fitness and and competitiveness given the way they are turning over teams.

Probably Lyon away is the only match I've watched this season where Leinster were getting as good as they were giving and from that day Kelleher was the performance that stood out.

Doris possibly has a bit more to his game and given his fewer caps and the fact that it's a contest between him and the more experienced Deegan we might have our answer already.

Connors is the big breakthrough in the backrow though, I'd have him ahead of both Doris and Deegan, albeit he hasn't quite caught upto VDF yet.

Connors and penny is a similar one. Had thought penny would be head and shoulders above Connors but Connors has been incredible this year. Might be a bit harsh but it’s coming from the high expectations I have for him but I’m kind of disappointed with penny not having as big of an impact as I thought he would

Wegians89

Wegians89 wrote: »

Connors and penny is a similar one. Had thought penny would be head and shoulders above Connors but Connors has been incredible this year. Might be a bit harsh but it’s coming from the high expectations I have for him but I’m kind of disappointed with penny not having as big of an impact as I thought he would

Penny is three years younger and at 20 is not out of place at pro14 level. He's plenty of time to bridge the gap and by the sounds he's ambitious enough to move to get game time if needs be.

Wegians89

Deleted User wrote: »

Penny is three years younger and at 20 is not out of place at pro14 level. He's plenty of time to bridge the gap and by the sounds he's ambitious enough to move to get game time if needs be.

Oh I get that he’s got plenty of time but I was expecting him to be this seasons superstar breaking through.

Faugheen

Penny could do worse than take a leaf of of Beirne’s book and move to one of the Welsh provinces for a couple of years.

I’d rather he didn’t leave, but the backrow is just stacked and we’re still without Leavy and Conan.

Wegians89

Faugheen wrote: »

Penny could do worse than take a leaf of of Beirne’s book and move to one of the Welsh provinces for a couple of years.

I’d rather he didn’t leave, but the backrow is just stacked and we’re still without Leavy and Conan.

Why would he need to leave Ireland? I’m sure all three other provinces would snap him up given the opportunity. Munster probably already have enough bodies in the back row but penny would be quality enough to get first choice at Connacht or ulster pretty quickly

Dubinusa

I personally prefer Deegan to Doris. I think he's faster and more agile. Doris looks like a classic 8 and is a strong runner and rock solid. But, Deegan for me has more to offer. They both will be capped relatively soon and they could both play 6. I'd rate Doris as a better 6.
But, Josh Murphy is a good 6 and although he is not a star he could also push his way into the mix for the international team!

Clegg

Wegians89 wrote: »

Why would he need to leave Ireland? I’m sure all three other provinces would snap him up given the opportunity. Munster probably already have enough bodies in the back row but penny would be quality enough to get first choice at Connacht or ulster pretty quickly

Munster have enough bodies at openside, but none of the sufficient quality. TOD is injury prone and on the wrong side of 30. And neither Cloete or Oliver will ever be good enough. Although, Jack O'Sullivan looks like he might be good, but one potentially good player isn't enough for a position with a huge rate of attrition. For example, right now Leinster have 4 quality options at openside.

Penny's only weakness is his relative lack of size. But that doesn't seem to be much of a problem at the moment. He's made the step up to pro level effortlessly. If Leinster were to lose him it's imperative he stay within the Irish system. He's a potentially world class player.

FrannoFan

Wegians89 wrote: »

Seems most people seem to rate Doris as a better 8 and more likely to start for Ireland but after seeing deegan the last night surely he’s right up there too. I don’t get to see every minute of Leinster but was just wondering if there is a clear first choice between the two ?

I think if Deegan was putting in his performances with another province there would be a real debate about who starts for Ireland but as it is people sort of trust the Leinster coaching ticket who are picking Dorris for the big games.

Deegan offers big eye catching/ game breaking moments like his outside break for ringrose try which i think add real value to his overall industry. i think becuase when he came on the scene he seemed to e noted for those moments people have failed to note He has really improved his tackle count/ overall workrate/ruck involvement etc.

dorris looks like a heaslip in that he does it all. Tackle/jackal and carry.

both super players and hate to lose them to another province.

i think deegan has potential as an unorthodox 7. He is a bit tall but great tackle counts and workrate and competes well around the breakdown. his height makes him unlikely but he looks too good to leave out

FrannoFan

Deleted User wrote: »

Penny is three years younger and at 20 is not out of place at pro14 level. He's plenty of time to bridge the gap and by the sounds he's ambitious enough to move to get game time if needs be.

I'd have concerns over his size. he is barely 6 foot. If you look at international rugby not many 6 foot back rows out there.

Could end up like Davies for Wales. excellent player but a lack of size makes it hard to make an impact on the international stage.

FrannoFan

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'd have concerns over his size. he is barely 6 foot. If you look at international rugby not many 6 foot back rows out there.

Could end up like Davies for Wales. excellent player but a lack of size makes it hard to make an impact on the international stage.

He'll convert to hooker and end up playing for the Springboks!

FrannoFan

Deleted User wrote: »

He'll convert to hooker and end up playing for the Springboks!

you'd wonder was that conversation ever had with him. Strauss mould of hooker.

VDF is considered on the small side and hes a good 2 inches taller than Penny.

RobbieRuns

FrannoFan wrote: »

I'd have concerns over his size. he is barely 6 foot. If you look at international rugby not many 6 foot back rows out there.

Could end up like Davies for Wales. excellent player but a lack of size makes it hard to make an impact on the international stage.

Thought the best back row at the World Cup was Sam Simmons from England. I'd say 6 foot at a push......

FrannoFan

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Thought the best back row at the World Cup was Sam Simmons from England. I'd say 6 foot at a push......

pretty sure he missed the world cup?

and he struggles to make Eddie jones squad because of lack of size. Billy and even hughes often selected ahead of him.

A super player as well but there is nearly like a glass ceiling for back rows under 6 foot.

you'll find examples in world rugby but they are the exception rather than the rule

Bridge93

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Thought the best back row at the World Cup was Sam Simmons from England. I'd say 6 foot at a push......

Presume you mean Sam Underhill? He's 6'1 same as Josh Van Der Flier

dub_skav

I've never thought a 7 has to be particularly tall. Though that changes a bit in the modern interchangeability of roles in the back row - tackling, rucking, carrying, jumping now seen as needed by all players.

But, Pocock and Hooper are 6 foot, though Pocock is the same wide, so not sure that counts

George Smith was under 6 foot. So, certainly the Aussies have no problem with shorter 7s.

Might be less usual, but if you're excellent at all the skill areas, then an inch or two will not hold you back as a 7.

FrannoFan

dub_skav wrote: »

I've never thought a 7 has to be particularly tall. Though that changes a bit in the modern interchangeability of roles in the back row - tackling, rucking, carrying, jumping now seen as needed by all players.

But, Pocock and Hooper are 6 foot, though Pocock is the same wide, so not sure that counts

George Smith was under 6 foot. So, certainly the Aussies have no problem with shorter 7s.

Might be less usual, but if you're excellent at all the skill areas, then an inch or two will not hold you back as a 7.

like i said you'll find exceptions but we are talking about a 20 year old so in terms of probabilities he is up against it. doesn't mean you can't make it but it takes something exceptional to make it.

the oz backrow with two 6 footers looked underpowered at the world cup. there is a reason why international rugby is dominated by giants.

Stout Warrior

Sam Underhill Tom Curry Pockock and Hooper are all around 6ft.

Penny has transitioned seamlessly into the pro game and has gone well without having to acclimatise to the size difference in the players he is playing against.

He has a job on his hands but VDF is comfortably in pole position - Conners doesn't offer as much of a threat over the ball or any threat over the ball.

If Penny can show he has that threat (not out of the question given his low centre of gravity) it might offer the coaches something different to the number 1 tackler VDF. Conners is nowhere near VDF yet.

Squidgy Black

Sam Simmonds is a hair over 6 foot and is probably one of the in form 8s in the Premiership over the last few seasons, missed out on the RWC due to injury.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about size if the player has the technique to back it up. We're talking about an inch or here, it's not as if he's 5'5.

Interested Observer

Sam Simmonds is really not big at all for an 8 and he's also pretty much not an international despite how well he's played for Exeter over a prolonged period.

Bazzo

FrannoFan wrote: »

both super players and hate to lose them to another province.

Ditto! :pac:

dub_skav wrote: »

But, Pocock and Hooper are 6 foot, though Pocock is the same wide, so not sure that counts

No way Hooper is 6', 5'10" or 5'11" at a push.

Squidgy Black

Interested Observer wrote: »

Sam Simmonds is really not big at all for an 8 and he's also pretty much not an international despite how well he's played for Exeter over a prolonged period.

He's only 25, signed his Exeter contract in 2016 and was called up to the squad in 2017 and then played in the 2018 6 Nations when Vunipola and Hughes were injured, then spent close to a year out injured.

RugbyLover123

Sam Simmonds is very powerful and explosive - he’s faster then most backs. I wouldn’t say Penny is near to Simmonds in that regard from what I’ve seen of him.

Pocock, Hooper, Underhill are all small 7s but they are still a good bit bigger then Penny.

I hope Penny makes it but as another poster said I have concerns about his size if he’ll ever be an international quality 7.

Clegg

Carbery's broken arm guarantees that Ross Byrne will be with Ireland for the rest of the Six Nations. We'll be seeing a lot of Harry Byrne and Frawley starting over the next few months.

Squidgy Black

Clegg wrote: »

Carbery's broken arm guarantees that Ross Byrne will be with Ireland for the rest of the Six Nations. We'll be seeing a lot of Harry Byrne and Frawley starting over the next few months.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw one of Frawley/Byrne play against Treviso. Cullen said today that there's no chance Sexton is back training next week and as a result won't make the Treviso game.

Exclamation Marc

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw one of Frawley/Byrne play against Treviso. Cullen said today that there's no chance Sexton is back training next week and as a result won't make the Treviso game.

Possibly. But with the top two seeds being guaranteed home QF and SF, it could depend on other results this weekend as well. If we're nailed on for top two, I'd say we'll see one of them but if we need anything from it, Byrne will start.

RobbieRuns

Thought that Frawley hurt his knee at the end of the Connacht game? Hope that he is ok?

Podge_irl

Saracens qualifying out of the group and being out of danger of relegation come knockouts is a pretty nightmare scenario. 7 matches in the premiership between now and then - it's fairly possible.