Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

FrannoFan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Saracens qualifying out of the group and being out of danger of relegation come knockouts is a pretty nightmare scenario. 7 matches in the premiership between now and then - it's fairly possible.

The odds of Saracens winning were 12-1 at one stage which seemed crazy.

always likely to get to safety in England but not the top 4

the only trophy they had a realistic shot at winning was Europe. rest players for 2 pool games. make it out of the group and you are just 3 wins from silverware.

scott1974

Podge_irl wrote: »

Saracens qualifying out of the group and being out of danger of relegation come knockouts is a pretty nightmare scenario. 7 matches in the premiership between now and then - it's fairly possible.

There is talk that Saracens will have to shed players this season due to the Salary Cap, so I think we'll just have to see what happens there.. interesting times..

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Saracens qualifying out of the group and being out of danger of relegation come knockouts is a pretty nightmare scenario. 7 matches in the premiership between now and then - it's fairly possible.

Lose even 1 game during the 6Ns window and things will get pretty tricky for them. They need to finish on about 50 points, which means getting 57 from the 14 remaining games. They only have 2 TBP wins from 8 so far and lost at home to Northampton during the RWC. They play Northampton away during the 6Ns as well as Wasps and Bristol away, so it's not hard to imagine them dropping a few points over the 6Ns period. Lose even 1 and fail to get (m)any TBPs and you are probably talking about them being on 19-20 with 7 games remaining.

They have a manageable run in from there but they wouldn't be able to afford another loss and still qualify for Europe by league position. Their draw in the HEC KOs will be tough too so they cant rely on that either.

The one thing working in their favour is the fact that most teams in the Premiership have lost half a dozen games or more already, meaning the points required to qualify for Europe will almost certainly be lower than previous years.

Ultimately we all need to be cheering on Northampton, Bristol and (the most unlikely of the bunch) Wasps over the 6Ns period. If Saracens lose 2 of those then they could decide to forget about Europe and focus on the league as they'll need to maximise their return to get a top 6 spot in the league.

kingofthekong

W

kingofthekong

Would love a shot to beat full salary cheating Saracens this season and not a crippled squad....the last chance at revenge for last year and possibly the last chance to have the two top teams in Europe go at it one last time before saracens become something different

I know that saracens were cheating but I still believe we can beat full strength Sarries

Interested Observer

The Saracens CEO is talking about possibly having to alter the squad as the season goes on. This basically looks like an admission they're still over the cap.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/51013178

Podge_irl

Saracens don't have a hope of qualifying for Europe via the league. The lowest number of points that would have got them in over the last 5 years is 52, but it is normally higher. Their real goal is going to be getting around 30 points - which will have them free from relegation. By far their best chance of getting back into Europe will be by winning the cup and that is where they should focus their efforts if relegation is not a concern.

Former Former

kingofthekong wrote: »

Would love a shot to beat full salary cheating Saracens this season and not a crippled squad....the last chance at revenge for last year and possibly the last chance to have the two top teams in Europe go at it one last time before saracens become something different

I know that saracens were cheating but I still believe we can beat full strength Sarries

In fairness, Saracens were cheating in the English league. They didn't break any rules in Europe.

aloooof

kingofthekong wrote: »

Would love a shot to beat full salary cheating Saracens this season and not a crippled squad....the last chance at revenge for last year and possibly the last chance to have the two top teams in Europe go at it one last time before saracens become something different

I know that saracens were cheating but I still believe we can beat full strength Sarries

Sarries were cheating in the Premiership. They didn't break any rules in Europe.

Dravokivich

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, Saracens were cheating in the English league. They didn't break any rules in Europe.

aloooof wrote: »

Sarries were cheating in the Premiership. They didn't break any rules in Europe.

I don't care either way, but that's just nonsense. They wouldn't have the squad to select for Europe from, if they didn't cheat in the premiership.

Quin_Dub

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, Saracens were cheating in the English league. They didn't break any rules in Europe.

Technically you are correct - But would they have qualified for Europe (or have been as successful) without cheating in the Premiership?

Interested Observer

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't care either way, but that's just nonsense. They wouldn't have the squad to select for Europe from, if they didn't cheat in the premiership.

Imo this is totally irrelevant to Leinster. What the Premiership do in terms of salary cap or Euro qualification is their business. It's up to Leinster to beat whatever team is put in front of them in Europe.

thegreycity

Agreed, Leinster have their own share of unfair advantages. The sum of those advantages and disadvantages makes the team. The salary cap issue is only a concern in the Premiership.

Leinster are in an unbelievably enviable position and to complain about Saracens and their salary cap is ludicrous.

molloyjh

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't care either way, but that's just nonsense. They wouldn't have the squad to select for Europe from, if they didn't cheat in the premiership.

Exactly. Europe doesnt exist in a vacuum and had Saracens been adhering to their domestic rules then they wouldnt have had the teams they had in Europe either. So while technically they didnt cheat in Europe, their cheating domestically gave them a leg up in Europe that they shouldn't have had.

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Leinster are in an unbelievably enviable position and to complain about Saracens and their salary cap is ludicrous.

I dont think anyone was complaining about it here today. Saracens are cheats and beating them after last years final would be revenge. Not sure KOKs post would constitute complaining about the cheating though.

aloooof

As a tangent, is there anything stopping Saracens (or any other team) from having a core squad, and an additional, say, 4-5 players solely for Europe? It'd be ludicrous, but I don't think there's anything in the rules stopping them from doing something like that?

Former Former

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Technically you are correct - But would they have qualified for Europe (or have been as successful) without cheating in the Premiership?

Probably not.

But we and they are on a level playing field in Europe. They beat us fair and square.

Dravokivich

aloooof wrote: »

As a tangent, is there anything stopping Saracens (or any other team) from having a core squad, and an additional, say, 4-5 players solely for Europe? It'd be ludicrous, but I don't think there's anything in the rules stopping them from doing something like that?

https://www.epcrugby.com/champions-cup/format/rules/

3. ELIGIBILITY OF PLAYERS,

"all such players must, on registration, be fully and properly registered with their club and Union."

So it looks like the squad needs to be made up of players submitted for their relevant League.

thegreycity

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. Europe doesnt exist in a vacuum and had Saracens been adhering to their domestic rules then they wouldnt have had the teams they had in Europe either. So while technically they didnt cheat in Europe, their cheating domestically gave them a leg up in Europe that they shouldn't have had.

Premiership have rules in place to benefit the competitiveness of their own competition, the logic they have in applying those rules has no relation to European rugby or Leinster. There's an argument to be made that breaking those rules made life easier for Saracens domestically and therefore had a knock-on effect for them in Europe, but Leinster have a far easier time domestically than Saracens do.

P.Walnuts

Think some people just need to accept we were beaten by a better team on the day.

Domestically, did they breach the salary cap? Yes

Domestically do Leinster have an enormous advantage is almost every other aspect of player welfare, along with an enormous wage bill? Also yes.

Dravokivich

I don't think there's anyone with sour grapes here. But according to the EPCR rules that I linked to above, they do need to comply with the rules of their league first.

Leinster's "benifits" are compliant. So... what of it really? Anything they are doing can be done by the other provinces. But we only see them peak occasionally. If the aim is for them to produce players for the International squad, they should be learning and adapting directly from each other to develop their squads.

molloyjh

Yeah we lost fair and square, but it is also 100% accurate to say that the cheating in the Premiership also had a knock on effect on Europe. Had they not been cheating they wouldnt have fielded the teams they did and likely not gotten the results they did. It isnt just that they had a easier time of it in the Premiership, it was that they had players on their roster that they shouldn't have had. I'm not sure theres anything there to argue.

In terms of last years final, it's a minor annoyance to me. But our errors on the day are far more annoying. You play who you play and we came off second best because we made errors at crucial times whereas they didnt. We have a lot of (legal) benefits that others could only dream of so the Saracens cheating only really levelled the playing field in many ways. It shouldn't have, but moaning about it would be a bit much. I'm not sure people are doing that here though.

Stuart Lancaster's preview of the Lyon game is an interesting insight into some of the processes behind the scenes at Leinster. Saw it on facebook but it's probably on their social media generally and worth a listen.

Bazzo

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't think there's anyone with sour grapes here. But according to the EPCR rules that I linked to above, they do need to comply with the rules of their league first.

Leinster's "benifits" are compliant. So... what of it really? Anything they are doing can be done by the other provinces. But we only see them peak occasionally. If the aim is for them to produce players for the International squad, they should be learning and adapting directly from each other to develop their squads.

I'm sorry but are you saying the other provinces just need to do what Leinster are doing fully seriously?

awec

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't think there's anyone with sour grapes here. But according to the EPCR rules that I linked to above, they do need to comply with the rules of their league first.

Leinster's "benifits" are compliant. So... what of it really? Anything they are doing can be done by the other provinces. But we only see them peak occasionally. If the aim is for them to produce players for the International squad, they should be learning and adapting directly from each other to develop their squads.

Er, no.

Squidgy Black

I mean technically they could be.

They just require a serious amount of riding from better stock to cut out the country inbreeding, a couple decades of private schools, and some decent flat whites and they'll be able to produce Leinster-esque BMs.

Dravokivich

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm sorry but are you saying the other provinces just need to do what Leinster are doing fully seriously?

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

awec

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

€€€€€€€€.

Bazzo

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

So for instance there's "nothing preventing" Connacht having a raft of fee paying private schools with a strong tradition in rugby and 4x the population it currently has? Are you taking the piss? There's a lot of things preventing all of the other provinces from emulating Leinster's exact system, historical & otherwise.