Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

The Lost Sheep

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

so there is nothing preventing all the other provinces having dozens of fee paying schools who can spend thousands on rugby coaches, facilities etc on top of having more club youths players than other provinces as well?
Leinster cant be replicated.

RobbieRuns

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

They don’t have the players to do what Leinster do....... they just don’t exist in the numbers.

RobbieRuns

RobbieRuns wrote: »

They don’t have the players to do what Leinster do....... they just don’t exist in the numbers.

If someone with money on a voluntary basis invested significantly in a handful of schools on the promise that they adopt rugby as their main sport, and use the funds to replicate what the top rugby schools do then in a decade or so you would start to see returns.

The IRFU doesn't itself have the funds to brute force youth development in the way the private schools have been able to.

RobbieRuns

The IRFU does not have the funds...... (even forgetting the CVC 6 nation sell off money) but a private individual should invest on a voluntary basis?

But who has the duty or responsibility to promote the game throughout the country, the IRFU or the someone with money on a voluntary basis?

RobbieRuns

RobbieRuns wrote: »

The IRFU does not have the funds...... (even forgetting the CVC 6 nation sell off money) but a private individual should invest on a voluntary basis?

But who has the duty or responsibility to promote the game throughout the country, the IRFU or the someone with money on a voluntary basis?

The IRFU doesn't have the money and they'll never take on a stakeholder.

The only way I could see a bunch more schools turning into proper rugby nurseries is if they receive a cash injection and that would have to be without strings attached.

I'm speaking entirely hypothetically in relation to what it would take to replicate the Leinster feeder system elsewhere.

irishbucsfan

We should do a better job of sharing those resources we have, not look to aggressively steal those resources from schools who feed into other sports. Especially in areas where rugby already carries a seriously poor reputation.

Leinster are very very lucky to have the schools they have. They do an extremely good job of converting that raw talent into the end product but they should also be expected to support other provinces where their supplies are shorter

aloooof

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying they have to do what leinster do. There's nothing preventing them from doing it too. Leinster dont exist as a sole entity.

They also don't exist in a vacuum. As others have pointed out, they enjoy a number of natural advantages that cannot be easily replicated by the other provinces. (And they're doing a brilliant job at utilising those advantages to the fullest).

RobbieRuns

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We should do a better job of sharing those resources we have, not look to aggressively steal those resources from schools who feed into other sports. Especially in areas where rugby already carries a seriously poor reputation.

Leinster are very very lucky to have the schools they have. They do an extremely good job of converting that raw talent into the end product but they should also be expected to support other provinces where their supplies are shorter

That is very true, but the IRFU should do a better job of distributing the talent that is available. The schools system is Leinster's academy really (I know the clubs produce a few) they have the biggest pool of talent coming through their system and I certainly have nothing but admiration for them. No one could not watch and admire the way the club is being run and the depth in the squad, it is amazing. I can only ever stand up and applaud Leinster and of course shout for them when they get to the latter stages of the HC and Pro 14 finals.

The issue that I do believe is wrong is the depth charts are not balanced. In a lot of cases I would say that Leinsters 5th and 6th choice players in certain positions are better than Connacht's second choices.

molloyjh

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That is very true, but the IRFU should do a better job of distributing the talent that is available. The schools system is Leinster's academy really (I know the clubs produce a few) they have the biggest pool of talent coming through their system and I certainly have nothing but admiration for them. No one could not watch and admire the way the club is being run and the depth in the squad, it is amazing. I can only ever stand up and applaud Leinster and of course shout for them when they get to the latter stages of the HC and Pro 14 finals.

The issue that I do believe is wrong is the depth charts are not balanced. In a lot of cases I would say that Leinsters 5th and 6th choice players in certain positions are better than Connacht's second choices.

The decision is the players, not the IRFUs. If a player doesnt want to leave Leinster and Leinster want to keep him then that's all there is to it.

Clegg

Larmour on developing his game at 15. From hgis performances this season it's clear that he's improved a lot as a player. He's looking up to see whats in front of him rather than trying to run everything from his 22. If it isn't on he'll kick for touch. He's also more aware of what's going on around him and will put players into space if they're free. Best 15 in Ireland and possibly Europe on this seasons form.

Although game-breaking bursts from deep like the ones that punctuated Leinster’s back-to-back successes over Northampton will always demand deserved attention, Larmour has been adding other elements to his attacking game this term. Most notable, is the comfort with which he steps up into the line to give Leinster a dual playmaker. The handling skills polished there also help him hone the more rounded offering.

“It’s a bit of Stuart and it’s a bit of me. When I came back, I sat down with him and I said I want to step up and more of a ball player as well so I’m kind of working on that,” said Larmour.

“I’ve done it a few times this season, kinda stepping up. It’s important, being a 15, you’ve got to be able to play a two-sided attack so when you’re getting back up off the ground, you’re scanning, seeing if you can go back down the short side or work out the open side.

“So I’ve been working on that so far this season as well.

https://www.the42.ie/larmour-playmaking-responsibility-4955432-Jan2020/

kennedmc

aloooof wrote: »

As a tangent, is there anything stopping Saracens (or any other team) from having a core squad, and an additional, say, 4-5 players solely for Europe? It'd be ludicrous, but I don't think there's anything in the rules stopping them from doing something like that?

Isn't that what we 'kind of' do? Our top players play a small number of league games and all the European games. It's a great advantage especially where we have a deep talent pool to play in the league.

RobbieRuns

molloyjh wrote: »

The decision is the players, not the IRFUs. If a player doesnt want to leave Leinster and Leinster want to keep him then that's all there is to it.

So you think that the IRFU ask players and they do not want to leave?

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

The decision is the players, not the IRFUs. If a player doesnt want to leave Leinster and Leinster want to keep him then that's all there is to it.

i think the point is that schools players are not "leinster" players.... and the IRFU should, if at all possible, find systems to distribute schools players more evenly between provinces....
we already have it with the likes of CC Roscrea being a feeder for connacht and munster as much, if not more than, leinster.

I mean, connacht still hold 'open days' looking for u19 talent (well they did up to a few years ago)

That kind of system should be influenced more formally through an IRFU programme. Perhaps even some kind of academy draft system

molloyjh

RobbieRuns wrote: »

So you think that the IRFU ask players and they do not want to leave?

Yes. Connors said as mich recently. He was asked to look at Connacht and said no.

arsebiscuits1

Clegg wrote: »

Larmour on developing his game at 15. From hgis performances this season it's clear that he's improved a lot as a player. He's looking up to see whats in front of him rather than trying to run everything from his 22. If it isn't on he'll kick for touch. He's also more aware of what's going on around him and will put players into space if they're free. Best 15 in Ireland and possibly Europe on this seasons form.



https://www.the42.ie/larmour-playmaking-responsibility-4955432-Jan2020/

One thing I would like to see more from Larmour is an offloading ability.

I hadn't realised it until it was pointed out on Leinster fans forum.

Larmour has no noticeable weaknesses in him game. His tackling, passing, high ball ability and obviously his stupidly impressive footwork make him invaluable.

However if he were to look to get the hands free and release the supporting player a bit more I we could be in for some seriously impressive tries

It's a very minor observation and I know I'm being pedantic

sydthebeat

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

One thing I would like to see more from Larmour is an offloading ability.

I hadn't realised it until it was pointed out on Leinster fans forum.

Larmour has no noticeable weaknesses in him game. His tackling, passing, high ball ability and obviously his stupidly impressive footwork make him invaluable.

However if he were to look to get the hands free and release the supporting player a bit more I we could be in for some seriously impressive tries

It's a very minor observation and I know I'm being pedantic

not disagreeing with you, but....how often are support runners on his shoulder when hes tackled?

I often believe an offload is commanded by the support runner, not the ball carrier. There needs to be good communication as the ball carrier is otherwise engaged. One thing he has gotten better at is his pass before the tackle.

As larmour isnt the bulkiest, and has gotten turned over more earlier in his career, its obvious to me that hes worked hard on the fight after the tackle to retain possession

Squidgy Black

Ah lads, there's been players asked to move provinces for years now and rejected it, at all levels. McElroy turning down a Connacht academy spot to try hold out for Leinster, Connors turning down Connacht, the reports that Byrne turned down a move to Ulster.

Ultimately the player has to want to move. The IRFU can't force players to do anything.

RobbieRuns

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes. Connors said as mich recently. He was asked to look at Connacht and said no.

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I have no issue with any individual player, they can do as they wish, but..... the IRFU as the overall employer and keeper of Irish rugby, they should be managing it better. For example.... just an example, how many people do Leinster have that can play 6 at the moment? Connacht are relying on Paul Boyle (great young player) a first year out of academy player. Madness for an employer (if they are under IRFU contracts?) to allow that. Props, Salanoa your USA recruit, why to Leinster? How much game time will he get ? I could go on......

Don't get me wrong, Leinster will always want back up on back up due to injuries and fighting on all fronts. The IRFU however if they are the paymasters should look after the interests of the game as a whole in Ireland.

molloyjh

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I have no issue with any individual player, they can do as they wish, but..... the IRFU as the overall employer and keeper of Irish rugby, they should be managing it better. For example.... just an example, how many people do Leinster have that can play 6 at the moment? Connacht are relying on Paul Boyle (great young player) a first year out of academy player. Madness for an employer (if they are under IRFU contracts?) to allow that. Props, Salanoa your USA recruit, why to Leinster? How much game time will he get ? I could go on......

Don't get me wrong, Leinster will always want back up on back up due to injuries and fighting on all fronts. The IRFU however if they are the paymasters should look after the interests of the game as a whole in Ireland.

Players are human beings, not inanimate resources to be passed around without consultation. The IRFU cannot and should not force players to move. Encourage, yes. Force, no. If a player wants to stay he should be allowed do so.

Also, Connors looking to earn his spot in one of the best teams in Europe deciding to not move to a team that has never consistently qualified for Europe is not a sign of a lack of ambition. Quite the opposite in fact.

AdamD

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I have no issue with any individual player, they can do as they wish, but..... the IRFU as the overall employer and keeper of Irish rugby, they should be managing it better. For example.... just an example, how many people do Leinster have that can play 6 at the moment? Connacht are relying on Paul Boyle (great young player) a first year out of academy player. Madness for an employer (if they are under IRFU contracts?) to allow that. Props, Salanoa your USA recruit, why to Leinster? How much game time will he get ? I could go on......

Don't get me wrong, Leinster will always want back up on back up due to injuries and fighting on all fronts. The IRFU however if they are the paymasters should look after the interests of the game as a whole in Ireland.

Its really not that simple. For one most of these guys are from Dublin and are based there for college etc. Moving to Connacht doesn't guarantee better development either, in fact there is little evidence of it. If anything the evidence points to staying at Leinster benefiting their development further.

salmocab

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I have no issue with any individual player, they can do as they wish, but..... the IRFU as the overall employer and keeper of Irish rugby, they should be managing it better. For example.... just an example, how many people do Leinster have that can play 6 at the moment? Connacht are relying on Paul Boyle (great young player) a first year out of academy player. Madness for an employer (if they are under IRFU contracts?) to allow that. Props, Salanoa your USA recruit, why to Leinster? How much game time will he get ? I could go on......

Don't get me wrong, Leinster will always want back up on back up due to injuries and fighting on all fronts. The IRFU however if they are the paymasters should look after the interests of the game as a whole in Ireland.

Players will very often want to stay in the best environment and if it’s close to home and for most of the younger lads the college they want to attend then I don’t find it surprising that lads want to stay at the club they support that has a reputation for giving lads a chance.
Not sure I’d call Salanoa a US recruit as my understanding is he got himself to Dublin to give it a lash as a rugby player.

FrannoFan

molloyjh wrote: »

The decision is the players, not the IRFUs. If a player doesnt want to leave Leinster and Leinster want to keep him then that's all there is to it.

This is it in a nut shell. Players are not commodities that can be transferred around without their agreement.

Plenty of examples of players from the leinster schools system moving to other provinces.

any area that could be tidied up (and it may already be happening) is early disclosure from Leinster on who they plan on taking into the academy. sharing information on promising players who didn't quite make the cut etc.

Players are ambitious to become pros will go where they can. (Timoney to Ulster just one example)

stephen_n

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I have no issue with any individual player, they can do as they wish, but..... the IRFU as the overall employer and keeper of Irish rugby, they should be managing it better. For example.... just an example, how many people do Leinster have that can play 6 at the moment? Connacht are relying on Paul Boyle (great young player) a first year out of academy player. Madness for an employer (if they are under IRFU contracts?) to allow that. Props, Salanoa your USA recruit, why to Leinster? How much game time will he get ? I could go on......

Don't get me wrong, Leinster will always want back up on back up due to injuries and fighting on all fronts. The IRFU however if they are the paymasters should look after the interests of the game as a whole in Ireland.

Ehm I think the governments attempt at decentralization might answer that question. There is a lot involved in moving away from family, friends and the other benefits for young lads living at home. Don’t forget we are talking about academy players here, who are getting paid very little.

sydthebeat

RobbieRuns wrote: »

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. .

ever heard of decentralisation?

a failed governmental policy because employees refused to move, even with better conditions attached.

Rigor Mortis

Decentralisation is a poor example. Civil Service employees have a far greater ability to hold a gun to their employers head than employees in a privately run organisation.

stephen_n

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Decentralisation is a poor example. Civil Service employees have a far greater ability to hold a gun to their employers head than employees in a privately run organisation.

You would struggle to find any examples of private firms moving their employees from Dublin to other parts of the country.

Squidgy Black

I've seen employees kick up murder and some leave for moving offices within Dublin, let alone moving to Galway or Ulster.

Interested Observer

RobbieRuns wrote: »

That's one player.....

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

I live and work in Dublin, if my employer told me they wanted me to move to Limerick or Galway then yeah I'd absolutely tell them no.

awec

Interested Observer wrote: »

I live and work in Dublin, if my employer told me they wanted me to move to Limerick or Galway then yeah I'd absolutely tell them no.

Yea but unless you’re on a fixed term contract there’s no real comparison.

I know of a company that moved just under 1100 meters and had huge uproar about it. Lost a good few staff.

People are mental.