Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Former Former

The IRFU are only going to 'encourage' a player to move if it's of benefit to the national team, e.g. Carbery. Those are always going to be few and far between.

If it's a mid-level player who's moving for his own benefit, they'll let it happen but Nucifora isn't sitting in his office poring over depth charts and academy rosters, figuring out who he's going to move where.

Quin_Dub

Former Former wrote: »

The IRFU are only going to 'encourage' a player to move if it's of benefit to the national team, e.g. Carbery. Those are always going to be few and far between.

If it's a mid-level player who's moving for his own benefit, they'll let it happen but Nucifora isn't sitting in his office poring over depth charts and academy rosters, figuring out who he's going to move where.

Maybe he should be to some extent though.

I'm not advocating for wholesale movement of players by any means , but there should be some better control over the market as it were.

Leinster are always going to produce a greater proportion of potential Professional players purely from a demographic perspective.

As others have mentioned maybe something akin to a draft system.

The Talent managers across the provinces have a list of players coming out of schools/clubs - There should be a review at the National level to decide how to maximise the potential of each years crop.

For example , maybe next June/July they say to Leinster , for this round , the other provinces all get to make academy offers to the Back-row prospects before you do.

I also don't think it would be particularly onerous for the IRFU to give some kind of "relocation grant" to an Academy level player if they are moving away from existing support structures.(family etc.)

awec

Former Former wrote: »

The IRFU are only going to 'encourage' a player to move if it's of benefit to the national team, e.g. Carbery. Those are always going to be few and far between.

If it's a mid-level player who's moving for his own benefit, they'll let it happen but Nucifora isn't sitting in his office poring over depth charts and academy rosters, figuring out who he's going to move where.

I actually agree. I don’t think the IRFU particularly care, and are happy enough to have one team that’s top heavy, so long as the other three are at least half decent.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

I actually agree. I don’t think the IRFU particularly care, and are happy enough to have one team that’s top heavy, so long as the other three are at least half decent.

It isnt their job to balance things out tbf. That would be an incredible task to take on too. At the end of the day I'd say they are looking at internationals like Carbery and Jack McGrath as well as up and coming potential internationals and leaving everyone else to their own devices. Which is probably the right way to do it.

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

I actually agree. I don’t think the IRFU particularly care, and are happy enough to have one team that’s top heavy, so long as the other three are at least half decent.

agreed, the IRFU would only start to get really worried if we started to get widespread movement off the island of promising players.

Realistically we do not have anyone playing their trade abroad that is any real loss to the national team, so as long as that remains the IRFU wont be too bothered.

Richie_Rich89

Big win at the weekend against Connacht. Coaching is so important. I'd say if you swapped Friend and Lancaster, it would have been Connacht in the driving seat.

irishbucsfan

It is possible for the IRFU to convince guys to move to other academies. If they partner with universities and offer better salaries players will move. Draft systems in America, Europe and Australia cover this. It would just require a lot more investment and management and who knows if that’s even remotely affordable. Until then it’s grand

Squidgy Black

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It is possible for the IRFU to convince guys to move to other academies. If they partner with universities and offer better salaries players will move. Draft systems in America, Europe and Australia cover this. It would just require a lot more investment and management and who knows if that’s even remotely affordable. Until then it’s grand

Connacht and Munster are both associated with universities (NUIG and UL) I believe. Not sure about Ulster.

But the salary and accommodation is definitely one of the bigger hurdles for academy players to move, full academy spots are usually only worth around €15k which isn't a great amount of money to encourage an 18/19 year old to uproot everything and live off for 3 years.

Richie_Rich89

All this talk of the Leinster schools advantage. Why isn't the majority of the other provinces' academy intake Leinster schools players every year?

It's probably improved and become more streamlined since, but there was the same schools system before and during MOC's tenure.

Leinster just have a really good coach now in Lancaster.

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

All this talk of the Leinster schools advantage. Why isn't the majority of the other provinces' academy intake Leinster schools players every year?

It's probably improved and become more streamlined since, but there was the same schools system before and during MOC's tenure.

Leinster just have a really good coach now in Lancaster.

They're not mutually exclusive. They have a really good coach and enjoy the benefits of their schools systems.

Rigor Mortis

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Connacht and Munster are both associated with universities (NUIG and UL) I believe. Not sure about Ulster.

But the salary and accommodation is definitely one of the bigger hurdles for academy players to move, full academy spots are usually only worth around €15k which isn't a great amount of money to encourage an 18/19 year old to uproot everything and live off for 3 years.

If accommodation is a serious issue buying a few houses in Salthill / Limerick can solve that. Thats not rocket science. Food can also be supplied cost effectively

salmocab

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

If accommodation is a serious issue buying a few houses in Salthill / Limerick can solve that. Thats not rocket science. Food can also be supplied cost effectively

Cost effective but not as nice as mammy makes I think is the point

Dubinusa

There's probably a bunch of school lads who won't make the Leinster academy. So these guys are available for other academies if they choose. Not everyone will want to move, but if the provinces can provide housing etc, some lads might take the chance.
I think this is a way to accomplish this. The IRFU should encourage this. I feel that looking overseas for players is more expensive and for considerably less money, the academies could be stacked. There's probably a few pro quality players bouncing around in the A.I.L. I think some of these lads should be offered a chance.

Rigor Mortis

salmocab wrote: »

Cost effective but not as nice as mammy makes I think is the point

I think if that is the issue then you have to question desire. There are very few opportunities to get into a gateway programme to professional sport. If you arent willing to take on what is essentially a student lifestyle in order to give it a go then good luck.

AdamD

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I think if that is the issue then you have to question desire. There are very few opportunities to get into a gateway programme to professional sport. If you arent willing to take on what is essentially a student lifestyle in order to give it a go then good luck.

Yeah but you aren't talking about lads without options. You're suggesting enticing them from Leinster to Connacht. Its all well and good giving out about their ambition but if the deal looks inferior on paper why would they go for it?

Rigor Mortis

AdamD wrote: »

Yeah but you aren't talking about lads without options. You're suggesting enticing them from Leinster to Connacht. Its all well and good giving out about their ambition but if the deal looks inferior on paper why would they go for it?

Thats fair.

salmocab

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I think if that is the issue then you have to question desire. There are very few opportunities to get into a gateway programme to professional sport. If you arent willing to take on what is essentially a student lifestyle in order to give it a go then good luck.

But we're talking about people who are already in that gateway program at one the best clubs in europe.

crisco10

to my mind, the other negative to leaving Leinster (particularly for Connacht) is the lack of positive experiences for people who did make the leap looking for gametime. (All be it with a lot of other complexities)

Beirne,
Conway (although he'd arguably made the breakthrough at leinster just as he left)
Cooney (eventually)

These are the good news stories, maybe a few more. But the last decade is littered with people who left Leinster and never moved on with the additional gametime as they would have hoped. Even look at Madigan, he had the ambition and got the big money marquee move, and is now seeing his career stagnant at a mid table English club.

RobbieRuns

I am loving the reaction. I would correct lots who are calling Leinster one of the best teams in Europe, it is the best team in Europe, bar none at the moment. My argument is not about academy players, it is about any player available, it is about the spread of talent at our disposal.

Let me go for it from another angle. If the employer (the IRFU) has the ability and power (as it pays the wages) to control its employees and a responsibility to make every club in the country as strong as it can, it is failing. So I would agree with those who say that deep down that the IRFU does not care, or it is doing a bad job because every other club outside Leinster is reliant on Leinster players going there (Ulster in particular have improved after a big influx), they are not developing home grown players, they are developing mostly Leinster players, because they will always have the first option on their own talent and all the numbers are in Leinster.

It is not a level playing field. If it was a draft system, Leinster would still take the first picks on every position but then have to give up some of the lower picks....... they do not do that, they keep them.That is not a slight on Leinster, they do a magnificent job as we all see, but it is on the IRFU.

The IRFU have turned Leinster into the Saracens of Irish rugby ! (Cue reaction) They give them first, second, third, and probably fourth choice picks of the talent available, because they are in there to begin with, If the clubs paid every player themselves, raised money themselves it would be fine, but if the contracts are IRFU ones then it is definitely not a level playing field and Leinster will dominate for many years to come.

Interested Observer

Kelleher apparently to be back for the Treviso game.

Interested Observer

Interested Observer wrote: »

Kelleher apparently to be back for the Treviso game.

Great. He's a six nations starter for me. His performance against Lyon away is the best performance of any hooker this season.

I think he is going to be to the 2 Jersey what Furlong was to the 3 Jersey breaking through.

RobbieRuns

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Big win at the weekend against Connacht. Coaching is so important. I'd say if you swapped Friend and Lancaster, it would have been Connacht in the driving seat.

If you seriously believe that Lancaster coaching the same players that Connacht had in the RDS and Friend coaching the same players that Leinster had out would have changed the result...... seriously?

Lancaster is a great coach but he is not a magician.

molloyjh

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I am loving the reaction. I would correct lots who are calling Leinster one of the best teams in Europe, it is the best team in Europe, bar none at the moment. My argument is not about academy players, it is about any player available, it is about the spread of talent at our disposal.

Let me go for it from another angle. If the employer (the IRFU) has the ability and power (as it pays the wages) to control its employees and a responsibility to make every club in the country as strong as it can, it is failing. So I would agree with those who say that deep down that the IRFU does not care, or it is doing a bad job because every other club outside Leinster is reliant on Leinster players going there (Ulster in particular have improved after a big influx), they are not developing home grown players, they are developing mostly Leinster players, because they will always have the first option on their own talent and all the numbers are in Leinster.

It is not a level playing field. If it was a draft system, Leinster would still take the first picks on every position but then have to give up some of the lower picks....... they do not do that, they keep them.That is not a slight on Leinster, they do a magnificent job as we all see, but it is on the IRFU.

The IRFU have turned Leinster into the Saracens of Irish rugby ! (Cue reaction) They give them first, second, third, and probably fourth choice picks of the talent available, because they are in there to begin with, If the clubs paid every player themselves, raised money themselves it would be fine, but if the contracts are IRFU ones then it is definitely not a level playing field and Leinster will dominate for many years to come.

An employer who considers that they "control" their employees and that treats those employees as assets that can be moved about at will wont have much success, because these players are human beings. It is also not the IRFUs job to make the provinces as strong as they can be. If it was then the provinces wouldnt have their own governance structures etc. The IRFU dont "give" Leinster players from Leinster. Almost everything in this post is either wrong or woefully off base. I'm surprised I'm 3even replying.

aloooof

RobbieRuns wrote: »

If the employer (the IRFU) has the ability and power (as it pays the wages) to control its employees and a responsibility to make every club in the country as strong as it can, it is failing.

But it doesn't have the ability and power to control it's employees. The rest of your post falls apart once you acknowledge this.

Interested Observer

This discussion has been had on here a million times now, the IRFU should send players here or send players there. It just is not how it works. You need the player to have some desire to go. If the IRFU decided it was their way or the highway in this regard all that would happen is players would end up in England.

b.gud

crisco10 wrote: »

to my mind, the other negative to leaving Leinster (particularly for Connacht) is the lack of positive experiences for people who did make the leap looking for gametime. (All be it with a lot of other complexities)

What exactly are the positive experiences that players who move to Connacht miss out on?

I'm assuming that you mean silverware in which case I'd point out that Connacht are the only Irish province other than Leinster to win silverware in the past 5 years

Burkie1203

RobbieRuns wrote: »

So if your employer actually said to you that, we want you to move to another department as it suits us better, it will be better for your own development and you will be better paid, better chance of promotion, progression, most would just stay? I have to disagree. It would actually tell me that the person has no ambition.

Or wanting to stay in an environment with one of the best coaches going who can help you develop your full potential , with a chance to win silverware lacks ambition?


Munster coaching ticket as an example is still a concern. JVG to me looks a but out of his depth so a lot will fall onto Rowntree and Larkham. Players might not want to move to a club/province of they feel the coaching might hinder their development

RobbieRuns

aloooof wrote: »

But it doesn't have the ability and power to control it's employees. The rest of your post falls apart once you acknowledge this.

If you think that an employer who gives a contract to an employee, sets out their job description, working hours, benefits, rules, regulations, pays their wages has zero control over them...... then your argument falls to pieces.

salmocab

Are the players not contracted to the provinces? I know they ultimately are owned by the irfu but the employer is the province.

aloooof

RobbieRuns wrote: »

If you think that an employer who gives a contract to an employee, sets out their job description, working hours, benefits, rules, regulations, pays their wages has zero control over them...... then your argument falls to pieces.

Not so much control that can force them to move provinces, tho, which is what was being discussed.