Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Podge_irl

Scottmactom wrote: »

Hines was better for Leinster than Thorne.

Yup, would agree.

We can even ignore the number of games played - I don't have an issue with Elsom for example. But Elsom was truly exceptional for his period at Leinster and I'm not entirely convinced Thorn was that during his tenure.

CatFromHue

Thorn only played in 8 games for Leinster

Squidgy Black

CatFromHue wrote: »

Thorn only played in 8 games for Leinster

Was only here for 3 months as injury cover for Leo Cullen

CatFromHue

Yeah I remember but it's still only 8 games, he didn't even start all of them!

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

but you have to take into account it's best ever team for leinster. Thorn was great but played 8 games for leinster.
He is better than the others overall but it's best team for leinster and I would consider what Cullen, toner, Ryan ahead of him

I guess we're answering two different questions.

It's either:

Who achieved the most for Leinster in each position

Who achieved the highest ceiling in each position and had a Leinster cap

They are two very different questions but it's the latter interpretation I'm working off.

2005 Lote Tuquiri says hello by the way

Former Former

Honestly, I don't really look back on Thorn's period here as anything special. In terms of contribution to Leinster, I'd have him behind Hines and Fardy and not on the same planet as MOK and Cullen.

Sure, he's the best player out of all of them, but by that measure you'd be picking Christian Cullen in the Munster XV and Muliana for Connacht.

The Lost Sheep

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess we're answering two different questions.

It's either:

Who achieved the most for Leinster in each position

Who achieved the highest ceiling in each position and had a Leinster cap

They are two very different questions but it's the latter interpretation I'm working off.

2005 Lote Tuquiri says hello by the way

it is two very different questions but it's the best leinster team of the era not the best players to have played for leinster.
I think if what they did for leinster then thorn wouldnt even make a 23. I would have 4 second rows ahead of him for what they have done in the jersey.

The Lost Sheep

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

it is two very different questions but it's the best leinster team of the era not the best players to have played for leinster.
I think if what they did for leinster then thorn wouldnt even make a 23. I would have 4 second rows ahead of him for what they have done in the jersey.

Fair enough. If I was putting together a team of players, based on their best performances for Leinster who I felt would be the hardest team to beat:

Healy
Cronin
Furlong
Mal
Ryan
Elsom
SOB
Heaslip
McGrath
Sexton
Lowe
BOD
Ringrose
Isa
Kearney

Fitz, Horgan and Larmour nipping at a few sets of heels there. Elsom v Fardy a conversation. Mal v Thorn a conversation and honestly I feel bad leaving Toner and Cullen out but I always think of their contributions as adding up incrementally to best in class over a season, as opposed to changing a specific game on the day.

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair enough. If I was putting together a team of players, based on their best performances for Leinster who I felt would be the hardest team to beat:

Healy
Cronin
Furlong
Mal
Ryan
Elsom
SOB
Heaslip
McGrath
Sexton
Lowe
BOD
Ringrose
Isa
Kearney

Fitz, Horgan and Larmour nipping at a few sets of heels there. Elsom v Fardy a conversation. Mal v Thorn a conversation and honestly I feel bad leaving Toner and Cullen out but I always think of their contributions as adding up incrementally to best in class over a season, as opposed to changing a specific game on the day.

I know there’s an element of fitting people in but darcy at 12 over Ringrose at 13 any day of the week if your looking for a team that would be hard to beat.

Clegg

That's a very good side, Venjur. I'd have Fardy in for Mal tho. Mal was an excellent footballer, but sometimes I felt he could have done more around pitch. Fardy is his equal skills wise and is just a pest everywhere on and off the ball.

Would have Reddan in instead of Luke too. Think Luke is the better all rounder, but Reddan's speed to the ruck and quality of pass is miles better. O agree on the other 13 players tho.

Sheep Shagger

Hardly a secret but Rob K must be announcing his retirement shortly- his book is out in October just in time for the Christmas market...

Podge_irl

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

it is two very different questions but it's the best leinster team of the era not the best players to have played for leinster.
I think if what they did for leinster then thorn wouldnt even make a 23. I would have 4 second rows ahead of him for what they have done in the jersey.

Even at that I would consider that it has to be based on their performances for Leinster. To me, Thorn was great, but didn't do anything that Hines or Fardy hasn't managed at times in a Leinster jersey. His performances in an AB jersey are irrelevant to the discussion. Elsom was hands down much better in a Leinster jersey than Thorn ever was and that is why he deserves his place,

Richie_Rich89

Do Leinster win in Bordeaux against Clermont in 2012 without Thorn? Doubtful, in my opinion. For that alone he's important in Leinster's legacy.

Squidgy Black

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Hardly a secret but Rob K must be announcing his retirement shortly- his book is out in October just in time for the Christmas market...

Yeah would generally indicate he's retiring considering most players wait to retire before publishing any sort of autobiography (Best, O'Connell, BOD all released theirs right after they retired, Heaslip and Ross the year after).

The only exception I can think of would be Johnny's in 2013.

He mentioned in an interview with Thornley last month he'd been looking at options outside of Ireland but everything was off the table once the seasons were postponed/cancelled.

Podge_irl

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Do Leinster win in Bordeaux against Clermont in 2012 without Thorn? Doubtful, in my opinion. For that alone he's important in Leinster's legacy.

Like...maybe? Devin Toner is not exactly a **** player as his 70 Ireland caps attest to. He was far from the most important player in that victory.

If Fofana had skipped arm day a couple times we would have lost. Should we put a statue to his gym work ethic up in the RDS?

Richie_Rich89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Te’o walked out of Leinster and straight into the England squad for the Australia tour which they won, not sure how much he played in that end of season but for someone so awful it was amazing how quick he jumped nearly every Centre in England to walk into the squad :-)

England used him almost exclusively as an impact sub if memory serves - a role he was well suited to. It's not as if he doesn't have his strengths. He's got useful pace for a big guy, and surprisingly good footwork. He's very dynamic and obviously has that offloading ability. Taking all that into consideration, does Gatland dropping him when he always preferred a big, powerful 12 not suggest that there were some serious deficiencies in other parts of his game?

Exclamation Marc

Former Former wrote: »

Voted by the fans. Clicks nothing to do with it.

They didn't have anyone listed in two positions, so you had this odd situation in which either Nacewa or Kearney had to miss out, but James Lowe made it into the RTE team.

Contepomi was shortlisted at 12 and 10 so he could and should have been an option for both.

Exclamation Marc

So these were the options for the RTE voting. Unsure why Isa isn't an option on the wing given that Contepomi was in two categories. Only two options for 13.

15: RK, Isa or Larmour
14/11: Shane Horgan, Denis Hickie, Luke Fitzgerald, Fergus McFadden, Dave Kearney and James Lowe
13: BOD, Ringrose
12: Contepomi, D'arcy, Henshaw
10 Sexton, Contepomi, Madigan
9 Boss, Reddan, Whitaker

8/7/6: Jamie Heaslip, Victor Costello, Sean O’Brien, Shane Jennings, Rocky Elsom, Rhys Ruddock, Trevor Brennan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier
5/4: Leo Cullen, Brad Thorne, Nathan Hines, Devin Toner, James Ryan, Malcolm O'Kelly
3 Tadhg Furlong Mike Ross Stan Wright
2 Sean Cronin, Richardt Strauss, Shane Byrne
1 Cian Healy, Jack McGrath, Reggie Corrigan

aloooof

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

England used him almost exclusively as an impact sub if memory serves - a role he was well suited to. It's not as if he doesn't have his strengths. He's got useful pace for a big guy, and surprisingly good footwork. He's very dynamic and obviously has that offloading ability. Taking all that into consideration, does Gatland dropping him when he always preferred a big, powerful 12 not suggest that there were some serious deficiencies in other parts of his game?

Gatland dropped him from the Lions. You don't get there if you have "no understanding of running lines or how to time passes as an inside centre".

Gatland also dropped Drico. Would you suggest there were serious deficiencies in other parts of his game?

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Gatland dropped him from the Lions. You don't get there if you have "no understanding of running lines or how to time passes as an inside centre".

Gatland also dropped Drico. Would you suggest there were serious deficiencies in other parts of his game?

T'eo and then Tomane got picked out for special attention by that poster.

Yeah_Right

clsmooth wrote: »

How about Luke Fitz? Won a GS, 3 HK and started a Lions test. Decent argument for him IMO. He still managed quite a lot considering his extensive injury history.

Luke Fitz is one of the most over rated players of Leinster's pro error. Lowe already has nearly as many tries as him in 100 less appearances.

Scottmactom

Luke Fitz at his peak was an excellent player, will never know how good he could have been due to his injury problems.

But he was on track to be a leinster great in 2009.

Haven't had a young wing that talented come through the system since.

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Luke Fitz is one of the most over rated players of Leinster's pro error. Lowe already has nearly as many tries as him in 100 less appearances.

Luke Fitz was an incredible player. Problem was he couldn't stay fit. If he was fit all the time he would have been up with the Leinster greats

prawnsambo

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Luke Fitz is one of the most over rated players of Leinster's pro error. Lowe already has nearly as many tries as him in 100 less appearances.

I'd say if you were counting try assists, he'd rank very high. He was often the guy who made the break and got the team into a scoring position. Lowe comes off his wing a lot more and so gets a lot more ball than Luke would have done as a more 'traditional' winger.

Buer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Luke Fitz is one of the most over rated players of Leinster's pro error. Lowe already has nearly as many tries as him in 100 less appearances.

Peak Fitzgerald was excellent and had more natural talent than Lowe. He played in a weaker team who didn't play such an attacking style but still made an impression. He was the best defender Leinster have had on the wing bar none. His peak years (2006-10) were played in a fairly defensive Leinster team which used their wingers completely differently. But he did show glimpses of his natural talent. Larmour is the only player who had a step in the same class. He was also far more rounded. He had a very decent left boot and was able to start at 12 against NZ just after his 21st birthday and look completely at home which Lowe simply couldn't do.

Lowe is far more powerful and effective at scoring tries. He also has licence to play off the cuff rugby along with those around him which really suits him. He's a big fan favourite and deservedly but I'd say he also has a fairly high error count which goes hand in hand with his style.

I still wouldn't have either in the best Leinster side of the pro era though. Nacewa and Horgan for me, I'd say.

Dravokivich

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Do Leinster win in Bordeaux against Clermont in 2012 without Thorn? Doubtful, in my opinion. For that alone he's important in Leinster's legacy.

Do they win without the drop kick at goal?

Former Former

Would we have won in Clermont without Thorn? If we'd replaced him with Fardy, Ryan or Hines, I think so.

Cullen was just as good as him that day too. He was immense.

Buer

Cullen outplayed Thorn for me on that day. Thorn was very good in his 8 games. That's it, for me. He probably wasn't quite at the level he was 9 months previously but was still an excellent player.

8 games of being consistently very good does not get him into the best side of the era. Elsom has a case because he was exceptional for a full season i.e. MOTM in about a dozen games.

In those closing minutes under our own posts in Bordeaux, Cullen's performance was more important than Thorn, for me. He was sensational in that spell.

Scottmactom

Toner - 244 appearances
Cullen - 219 appearances
MOK - 184 appearances
Fardy - 58 appearances
Hines - 46 appearances
Ryan - 37 appearances
Thorne - 8 appearances

Toner & Hines underrated?
Thorne overrated?

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

In those closing minutes under our own posts in Bordeaux, Cullen's performance was more important than Thorn, for me. He was sensational in that spell.

I'll never forget Julien Bardy headbutting Cullen, disguising it as rucking and trying to draw a penalty, Cullen just wouldn't react when most lads would have lashed out.

Edit; 8.35 in this clip
https://youtu.be/qjxFow0FLRQ?t=517