Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Yeah_Right

Scottmactom wrote: »

Who are the 4 players or coaches that make up your Leinster Mount Rushmore?

I'd probably go with Leo Cullen, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll & Jonny Sexton.

Brad Thorn. Thats it. Just Brad Thorn.

Granny15

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You’ve a peculiar sense of humour then. Doing down one of our greats.

jaansu

Scottmactom wrote: »

Who are the 4 players or coaches that make up your Leinster Mount Rushmore?

I'd probably go with Leo Cullen, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll & Jonny Sexton.

Simple

Cheika - started everything
Cullen - As player and now coach has given everything
BOD - Legend, wouldn't be a proper list without him
Isa - see BOD above

Podge_irl

jaansu wrote: »

Simple

Cheika - started everything
Cullen - As player and now coach has given everything
BOD - Legend, wouldn't be a proper list without him
Isa - see BOD above

Sexton is far more important to Leinster than BOD was. Would go so far as to say the most important player in Leinster history (with Isa a close second).

Shefwedfan

Granny15 wrote: »

You’ve a peculiar sense of humour then. Doing down one of our greats.

:P

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sexton is far more important to Leinster than BOD was. Would go so far as to say the most important player in Leinster history (with Isa a close second).

Interesting. I look forward to the thesis.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Interesting. I look forward to the thesis.

He was a key player in more championship winning sides.

/thesis

BOD was, obviously, a supremely good player and the discussion over their impact for Ireland is a lot tougher. But BOD was equally culpable and part of the malaise that affected the Leinster squad up until Cheika's arrival. He was definitely performing better for Ireland than Leinster. I don't think Sexton has ever had that issue. When you consider how vital he was to all of our European wins - the loss of him in the semi in '10 was absolutely huge - I think he has had a much bigger impact at Leinster in terms of results and also driving up standards than BOD did, even if the latter was arguably a better player.

Put another way - we've seen Leinster be consistently unsuccessful with BOD. The same can not be said for Sexton.

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

He was a key player in more championship winning sides.

/thesis

BOD was, obviously, a supremely good player and the discussion over their impact for Ireland is a lot tougher. But BOD was equally culpable and part of the malaise that affected the Leinster squad up until Cheika's arrival. He was definitely performing better for Ireland than Leinster. I don't think Sexton has ever had that issue. When you consider how vital he was to all of our European wins - the loss of him in the semi in '10 was absolutely huge - I think he has had a much bigger impact at Leinster in terms of results and also driving up standards than BOD did, even if the latter was arguably a better player.

Put another way - we've seen Leinster be consistently unsuccessful with BOD. The same can not be said for Sexton.

I don't think you're comparing like with like. Sexton never really played in the mediocre Leinster sides that BOD did for the first ten years of his career. Put Sexton behind the sort of pack that we had pre-2008 and he'd struggle badly.

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think you're comparing like with like. Sexton never really played in the mediocre Leinster sides that BOD did for the first ten years of his career. Put Sexton behind the sort of pack that we had pre-2008 and he'd struggle badly.

I'd suggest from what we've seen, Sexton would drive a higher standard from that team. Even as a kid, he was the key outhalf when we won the league in 2007/08 starting the majority of games. BOD simply wasn't the same mentality from the outset.

Andy Dunne did an in depth interview with OTB recently where he was very open about how poor the Leinster attitude was at times. He told a story about Keith Gleeson though which highlighted that Gleeson was cut from a different cloth and refused to accept that attitude, going so far as to call out Dunne and tell him he would never make it because of his attitude. I see Sexton in the same vein but in a far more influential role and a higher standard player.

Sexton didn't play in those side because he was a part of those sides ceasing to exist (with Cheika, Cullen and Jennings). He might have struggled for the consistency or quality at times (particularly during the pool stages in 08/09) but he was always a narky bollocks, pushing those around him.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

I'd suggest from what we've seen, Sexton would drive a higher standard from that team. Even as a kid, he was the key outhalf when we won the league in 2007/08 starting the majority of games. BOD simply wasn't the same mentality from the outset.

Andy Dunne did an in depth interview with OTB recently where he was very open about how poor the Leinster attitude was at times. He told a story about Keith Gleeson though which highlighted that Gleeson was cut from a different cloth and refused to accept that attitude, going so far as to call out Dunne and tell him he would never make it because of his attitude. I see Sexton in the same vein but in a far more influential role and a higher standard player.

Sexton didn't play in those side because he was a part of those sides ceasing to exist (with Cheika, Cullen and Jennings). He might have struggled for the consistency or quality at times (particularly during the pool stages in 08/09) but he was always a narky bollocks, pushing those around him.

BOD has always said in multiple interviews at the start they where not professional at all. Too much on beer etc. He is very open about it.

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

I'd suggest from what we've seen, Sexton would drive a higher standard from that team. Even as a kid, he was the key outhalf when we won the league in 2007/08 starting the majority of games. BOD simply wasn't the same mentality from the outset.

Andy Dunne did an in depth interview with OTB recently where he was very open about how poor the Leinster attitude was at times. He told a story about Keith Gleeson though which highlighted that Gleeson was cut from a different cloth and refused to accept that attitude, going so far as to call out Dunne and tell him he would never make it because of his attitude. I see Sexton in the same vein but in a far more influential role and a higher standard player.

Sexton didn't play in those side because he was a part of those sides ceasing to exist (with Cheika, Cullen and Jennings). He might have struggled for the consistency or quality at times (particularly during the pool stages in 08/09) but he was always a narky bollocks, pushing those around him.

I dunno, I think Sexton was more peripheral in the 08-09 season than that. I don't think he was central enough to be spoken about in the same terms as Cullen and Jennings. Obviously it all changed after May 2009 but prior to that he just wasn't that important.

But my point was not criticising Sexton, it was that BOD is being judged harshly. There's no doubt in my mind that he's one of our most important players and I don't think it's "arguable" that he was a better player than Sexton, it's 100% certain.

Buer

I suppose it boils down to a straight question in my mind. Would we have won the amount silverware we did without BOD? I believe so. Would we have won the amount of silverware we did without Sexton? Not a hope, in my mind.

Sure there might be a trophy or two we would have still won without Sexton but no way we're winning those back to back HEC trophies or again in 2018, for me.

BOD was an incredible player and delivered some truly brilliant performances for Leinster. But we also have to be honest and admit that he phoned in more than his fair share of games in blue before the breakthrough.

aloooof

In terms of most important player, I'd give Sexton the nod as well, largely through importance (and influence) of the position.

Look at the list of starting 10's from the previous decade of European cup finals. It's overly simplistic, but generally, look at the calibre of the winning starting 10 vs the runner-up; you seldom win it without an elite 10.

Year | Winner | Runner-up
2019| Farrell | Sexton
2018| Sexton | Lambie
2017| Farrell | Lopez
2016| Farrell | Carter
2015| Giteau | Lopez
2014| Wilkinson | Farrell
2013| Wilkinson | James
2012| Sexton | Jackson
2011| Sexton | Myler
2010| Skrela | Peyrelongue
2009| Sexton | Vesty

Scottmactom

Sexton has defined Leinster rugby in the 2010's.. his absence was huge during the MOC years and his presence was huge when Leinster won things..

replacing him & his influence will be one of the bigger tasks leinster rugby will have faced in the pro era.

AdamD

Buer wrote: »

I suppose it boils down to a straight question in my mind. Would we have won the amount silverware we did without BOD? I believe so. Would we have won the amount of silverware we did without Sexton? Not a hope, in my mind.

Sure there might be a trophy or two we would have still won without Sexton but no way we're winning those back to back HEC trophies or again in 2018, for me.

BOD was an incredible player and delivered some truly brilliant performances for Leinster. But we also have to be honest and admit that he phoned in more than his fair share of games in blue before the breakthrough.

That's a very big claim

The rest may be true but its a stretch to say we'd win the same number of trophies if you take out BOD..

Scottmactom

AdamD wrote: »

That's a very big claim

The rest may be true but its a stretch to say we'd win the same number of trophies if you take out BOD..

and to say we would have won them without Sexton is a stretch too.

They are both incredibly important to leinster rugbys success.

Buer

AdamD wrote: »

That's a very big claim

The rest may be true but its a stretch to say we'd win the same number of trophies if you take out BOD..

2009 is the only trophy that I look at and think BOD was key for Leinster that season. After that, he was excellent on occasion but the likes of Heaslip, Sexton, SOB and Nacewa had become the key players for Leinster.

In 2011/12, which was probably the peak of that Leinster team, BOD didn't play a single pool game in the HEC for example. In 2010/11, he wasn't involved in the away matches at Saracens or Clermont which were huge performances. He was sporadically involved in 2013 when Leinster won the league and the Amlin Cup (didn't play away to Wasps or in the final).

Obviously there's no guarantee but I think we'd be in or around the same number of trophies in that 10 year period. If Sexton wasn't there, there's a solid chance we wouldn't have won a single HEC trophy.

Former Former

Scottmactom wrote: »

and to say we would have won them without Sexton is a stretch too.

Nobody said that

errlloyd

There are four spaces on the damn mountain we don't need to have this chat.

For what it is worth I think BOD lifts the whole organisation out of amateurism. Not necessarily his approach or his methods - but by being the best player in the world and being here. Without BOD I wonder does Leinster ever build the fanbase, does it ever leave Donnybrook?

On this forum we tend to justify Sexton's move to Racing as teaching Leinster a valuable lesson about professionalism. We forgive him, even though as fans the two years he was gone were dire. If BOD had gone to Biaritz I think it would have been much more damaging. I think it would have been an admission that Leinster were B-League.

In summary, I can't see how you'd leave the 15-year superstar from the formative years of the province off our Mount Rushmore. Remember Theodore Roosevelt is on the real Mount Rushmore. You have the actual lad who won independence, the lad who wrote the declaration of independence, the lad who ended slavery and won the civil war and then for no reason, the guy who finished off the panama canal?

Scottmactom

That's why it has to include BOD & Sexton. Then Cullen for being 3 times captain and the HC of the 4th win. Finally Isa.

jaansu

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sexton is far more important to Leinster than BOD was. Would go so far as to say the most important player in Leinster history (with Isa a close second).

Like Cheika, I believe BOD brought us to another level and Sexton flourished in that team. Don't get me wrong Sexton was and still is a very important to Leinster, if there was a fifth spot on our Mount Rushmore I'd definitly put Sexton up there next.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Vote for Shaun Berne

Scottmactom

After 36 appearances and 19 tries for Leinster Rugby, winger Barry Daly has announced his retirement from the game to pursue further education.

The 27-year-old has stepped away from the game after two injury-hampered years during which he was sidelined by significant knee problems.

Daly will now travel stateside to continue his education, pursuing a Masters degree in Business.

Speaking to leinsterrugby.ie, Daly said of his decision: “It was a combination of things, the knee, two years of injuries, I got the opportunity to study abroad. I’ve got a scholarship to study in Boston for two years, I’m doing an MBA there.

“I didn’t really know for sure until towards the end of my injury rehab. I was coming back, looking to play and the whole pandemic was just kicking off then.

Exclamation Marc

Scottmactom wrote: »

After 36 appearances and 19 tries for Leinster Rugby, winger Barry Daly has announced his retirement from the game to pursue further education.

The 27-year-old has stepped away from the game after two injury-hampered years during which he was sidelined by significant knee problems.

Daly will now travel stateside to continue his education, pursuing a Masters degree in Business.

Speaking to leinsterrugby.ie, Daly said of his decision: “It was a combination of things, the knee, two years of injuries, I got the opportunity to study abroad. I’ve got a scholarship to study in Boston for two years, I’m doing an MBA there.

“I didn’t really know for sure until towards the end of my injury rehab. I was coming back, looking to play and the whole pandemic was just kicking off then.

Completely understandable decision after all his injuries and his age. Such a shame they held him back. Can only wish him the best for the future. He deserves it.

PMC83

Scottmactom wrote: »

After 36 appearances and 19 tries for Leinster Rugby, winger Barry Daly has announced his retirement from the game to pursue further education.

The 27-year-old has stepped away from the game after two injury-hampered years during which he was sidelined by significant knee problems.

Daly will now travel stateside to continue his education, pursuing a Masters degree in Business.

Speaking to leinsterrugby.ie, Daly said of his decision: “It was a combination of things, the knee, two years of injuries, I got the opportunity to study abroad. I’ve got a scholarship to study in Boston for two years, I’m doing an MBA there.

“I didn’t really know for sure until towards the end of my injury rehab. I was coming back, looking to play and the whole pandemic was just kicking off then.

Always seemed a gent. I was at a charity amateur boxing event a few months back and he was there, having put up his Pro14 final jersey as a raffle prize. Was more then happy to chat to whoever came by.


(I bought a rake of tickets but no joy!!)

MaybeMaybe

Clegg

I know Daly wants to focus on his career and education, but if he ever decided to give rugby another go he'd rip it up in the American League.

errlloyd

The Freejacks are surely gonna offer him a deal to tog out.

The Parish King

Good interview with former academy scrum half Charlie Rock on the Tackling Sport podcast this week.

Gives a good perspective of what it’s like coming up through the underage and academy system, and the changes he noticed between Joe Schmidt (and although he’s not discussed, I suspect MOC too), with the current regime.

It’s interesting to hear this perspective from someone who just fell short of the grade, and the impact the uncertainty can have on one’s mental health and ultimately your performance. There’s also a discussion around the difficulties associated with keeping players such as Rock in the game at a good level to continue a professional career which may be of interest to some.

Scottmactom

The Parish King wrote: »

Good interview with former academy scrum half Charlie Rock on the Tackling Sport podcast this week.

Gives a good perspective of what it’s like coming up through the underage and academy system, and the changes he noticed between Joe Schmidt (and although he’s not discussed, I suspect MOC too), with the current regime.

It’s interesting to hear this perspective from someone who just fell short of the grade, and the impact the uncertainty can have on one’s mental health and ultimately your performance. There’s also a discussion around the difficulties associated with keeping players such as Rock in the game at a good level to continue a professional career which may be of interest to some.

Very good interview, thanks for that.