Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

BoardsMember

Buer wrote: »

......but that game was crying out for Fardy and Ruddock to go toe to toe with Saracens and just tighten everything up. It was time for cool heads with a lot of experience out there and they were very, very thin on the ground for Leinster.

This x 100.

There's no way their pack looked at ours and were concerned about any aspect of it. We didn't have an ability to impact how they played at all.

Guinness RFC

BoardsMember wrote: »

This x 100.

There's no way their pack looked at ours and were concerned about any aspect of it. We didn't have an ability to impact how they played at all.

This will be the case for the next 5 years sadly. There are no monsters coming through the system. Unless we get some aggressive or big players in we will find it tough in Europe over the next 5 years. Either that or adapt and learn to play a game suited to a smaller but more mobile pack.

AbusesToilets

Guinness RFC wrote: »

This will be the case for the next 5 years sadly. There are no monsters coming through the system. Unless we get some aggressive or big players in we will find it tough in Europe over the next 5 years. Either that or adapt and learn to play a game suited to a smaller but more mobile pack.

They have the players to avail of that more mobile style.

BoardsMember

Still need a front row, front 5, that doesn't make the game unwinnable.

Clegg

Looking back at yesterdays game I keep coming round to an old opinion I had of Jack Conan. He's a great player up to a certain level, but when the competition gets especially tough he can't stamp his authority onto the game. It was a problem of his a few years ago that I thought he'd worked out before his injury. But in the face of the biggest game of his career I think he melted. Like, he's only just back from a long term injury so I'm trying not to be too harsh on him, but he's performed well in the inter pros in the lead up. Can't really blame it on a lack of gametime.

Conan isn't the only player that struggled yesterday. But he has a history of it. I know we're looking at the likes of Toner and Cronin as guys who probably aren't cut out for the highest levels of competition anymore. But Conan is another to keep an eye on in that regard.

Miriam Gonzalez Durantez

Clegg wrote: »

Looking back at yesterdays game I keep coming round to an old opinion I had of Jack Conan. He's a great player up to a certain level, but when the competition gets especially tough he can't stamp his authority onto the game. It was a problem of his a few years ago that I thought he'd worked out before his injury. But in the face of the biggest game of his career I think he melted. Like, he's only just back from a long term injury so I'm trying not to be too harsh on him, but he's performed well in the inter pros in the lead up. Can't really blame it on a lack of gametime.

Conan isn't the only player that struggled yesterday. But he has a history of it. I know we're looking at the likes of Toner and Cronin as guys who probably aren't cut out for the highest levels of competition anymore. But Conan is another to keep an eye on in that regard.

You could say that of the whole backrow. Distinctly quiet for most of the game and went missing in action. Conans stats aren’t that much worse than any of the others and I think he tried but got lost in a reign of sh1thousery.

It’s like the star winger who gets sidelined in a game that is contested up front. He was taken out of the game by the Sarries tactics of kick and chase. He didn’t offer himself nearly enough in attack but I think that could be said of most of our backrow. Not enough of a presence at the breakdown either by any of them but I think that’s our tactics.

The team tactic of playing with no number on your back after first phase has to be looked at. By filling holes in the backline in defence and attack you take head off the arrow and turn what could be a potent weapon into a blunt instrument.

The coaches have to ship blame. They got tactics wrong, preparation wrong, game plan wrong and mentality wrong. Players have to take blame also for their part in that also but front 5 this mini season has been off badly.

Redgirl82

One loss in the season and by the looks of it a few people have been waiting to get the boot in

From a Leinster point of view they struggled But the players will move on and they need to target a double next season. The freak of playing what should of been the final in the qtrs was odd. In reality if Sarries had been in any sort of decent group they never would have even qualified.

Then with covid etc the advantage of winning all games was lost. Then they just didn’t play well. Small errors. Worst 40 mins since I seen the semi v Clermont and they lost it in first 20 mins all those years ago

Pick themselves up, win the double next year and move on. Repeating a pro 14 season again without a loss is the big target with Europe

Richie_Rich89

Redgirl82 wrote: »

One loss in the season and by the looks of it a few people have been waiting to get the boot in

From a Leinster point of view they struggled But the players will move on and they need to target a double next season. The freak of playing what should of been the final in the qtrs was odd. In reality if Sarries had been in any sort of decent group they never would have even qualified.

Then with covid etc the advantage of winning all games was lost. Then they just didn’t play well. Small errors. Worst 40 mins since I seen the semi v Clermont and they lost it in first 20 mins all those years ago

Pick themselves up, win the double next year and move on. Repeating a pro 14 season again without a loss is the big target with Europe

Perennial semi-finalists Munster and 2018 finalists Racing with all their galacticos isn't a tough group?

It was a hell of a lot tougher than Leinster's pool featuring Treviso, European nobodies Lyon and a Northampton team with a seriously soft underbelly.

If Leinstrr had managed to get pasts Saracens I think Racing could have caused them all sorts of problems. Bit arrogant to assume Saracens-Leinster should have been the final.

thomond2006

StackSteevens wrote: »

Thanks for that. It's good to know that the fact that there are no Pro 14 sides and four Premiership sides in the two European Rugby Cup Competition semi finals is a complete aberration.

In Europe, Saracens have been the only relevant English team for years.
The Challenge Cup is a joke competition. Nobody really bats an eyelid, the French in particular take the piss with it.

StackSteevens

Buer wrote: »

There's no way you can replicate the intensity of yesterday in a league match whether it's in the Gallagher Premiership or the Pro14.

The GP has been a farce since its return due to the crammed fixture list. There's barely been a game featuring two full strength line ups since the opening day.

Yet curiously, an underpowered Saints managed it against the Chiefs yesterday while the pride of the Pro 14, in Leinster and Ulster wilted.

I wonder why? Perhaps you need to get out of the Pro 14 bubble occasionally and smell the coffee.

StackSteevens

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Challenge Cup is a joke competition. Nobody really bats an eyelid, the French in particular take the piss with it.

That's fair comment for the qualifying rounds, but when it comes to the knock out stages, teams and players tend to take it seriously.

OneLungDavy

Guinness RFC wrote: »

This will be the case for the next 5 years sadly. There are no monsters coming through the system. Unless we get some aggressive or big players in we will find it tough in Europe over the next 5 years. Either that or adapt and learn to play a game suited to a smaller but more mobile pack.

Jack Dunne could be the TH lock needed to add that required bulk. I just hope he has the attitude to go with it.

UAEguy2020

StackSteevens wrote: »

Yet curiously, an underpowered Saints managed it against the Chiefs yesterday while the pride of the Pro 14, in Leinster and Ulster wilted.

I wonder why? Perhaps you need to get out of the Pro 14 bubble occasionally and smell the coffee.

Funny because if my math serves me correctly the last 3 years we had 2 pro14 sides in the semi of the CC... but no let’s only now compare the leagues and have a total knee jerk reaction.

Synode

StackSteevens wrote: »

Yet curiously, an underpowered Saints managed it against the Chiefs yesterday while the pride of the Pro 14, in Leinster and Ulster wilted.

I wonder why? Perhaps you need to get out of the Pro 14 bubble occasionally and smell the coffee.

Managed what against the Chiefs?

thomond2006

StackSteevens wrote: »

That's fair comment for the qualifying rounds, but when it comes to the knock out stages, teams and players tend to take it seriously.

You tend however to have a majority of English teams in the knockouts because the French throw the pool in during the pool stages.

Buer

Clegg wrote: »

Looking back at yesterdays game I keep coming round to an old opinion I had of Jack Conan. He's a great player up to a certain level, but when the competition gets especially tough he can't stamp his authority onto the game. It was a problem of his a few years ago that I thought he'd worked out before his injury. But in the face of the biggest game of his career I think he melted. Like, he's only just back from a long term injury so I'm trying not to be too harsh on him, but he's performed well in the inter pros in the lead up. Can't really blame it on a lack of gametime.

Conan isn't the only player that struggled yesterday. But he has a history of it. I know we're looking at the likes of Toner and Cronin as guys who probably aren't cut out for the highest levels of competition anymore. But Conan is another to keep an eye on in that regard.

I think that's a little harsh on Conan. I thought he did step up and try to take the game to Saracens. He was one guy that actually got over the gain line in close contact and used his footwork well to give us front foot ball. Statistically, he was the best forward carrier on the pitch from either team. And none of those carries were from the base where he's usually strong as he didn't have that opportunity. It wasn't a game for bursts through the line and major gains but I certainly wouldn't single him out. He also tidied up his discipline.

Connors, similar to VDF, looks underpowered in contact and is very willowy when carrying. He's a big target for defenders to hit. He did a great job on Vunipola but his attacking game is definitely something he needs to develop. He needs another string to his bow.

We're far too reliant on James Ryan to carry ball also. A lock shouldn't be punching himself out carrying it 17 times when you've Cian Healy and Sean Cronin carrying the ball 4 times between them.

Buer

StackSteevens wrote: »

Yet curiously, an underpowered Saints managed it against the Chiefs yesterday while the pride of the Pro 14, in Leinster and Ulster wilted.

I wonder why? Perhaps you need to get out of the Pro 14 bubble occasionally and smell the coffee.

Northampton managed what, exactly?

Paul Smeenus

Buer wrote: »

Northampton managed what, exactly?

To lose 38 - 15.

UAEguy2020

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Jack Dunne could be the TH lock needed to add that required bulk. I just hope he has the attitude to go with it.

The fact we are looking for monsters is the most worrying thing. We aren’t losing to these teams because we are underpowered, we are losing because we are not playing intelligent rugby when we need to be. We played intelligent rugby in 2018 hence when we played France,England,NZL the physicality side of the game didn’t matter a kit yet in 2019 we played very dumb rugby and ofcourse got absolutely smashed any time we came up against a physical side. You don’t see Scotland or Wales get smashed to the extent Ireland have done so I don’t think blaming the lack of a monster is a valid excuse, it’s a factor but it a not the difference between being competitive and being dominated. Just using Ireland as an example.

Take Leinster at the weekend, if you look at the packs man for man there really wasn’t that much between them physically if you compared the two before the game and I fact the one player who was big physically (BV) I felt Leinster dealt with quite comfortably (12 meters from 13 carries if im not mistaken). The big reason Leinster were outplayed is they didn’t play smart rugby, they fell right into the Saracen trap and instead of fixing the problem they just kept running into a brick wall and hoped for the best. Take the line out, considering we know how good Saracens are at killing line out ball I found it almost laughable that Leinster continued to throw to the front and continue trying to push over the line using the maul even when it was clear the maul was going nowhere.

If we continue our search for monsters then sadly I think the lessons haven’t been learnt in the last 18 months and we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes going forward, we had no problem dominating in 2018 without a monster and the lack of a monster isn’t the reason we have struggled physically since, the reason for the struggle is we aren’t playing smart rugby. Simple.

Paul Smeenus

We're not. There is no search for monsters - it's just folk talking on this forum.

Ulster, certainly, want to have skilful, fast forwards. Our solitary second row in the academy proper is an ex sevens player.

On another forum someone is talking about Irish teams looking over-coached; unable to react. They suggested that that's why it took half-time before Leinster could turn it round - they had to hear it from the coach.

It's certainly something that we were saying about the national team in 2019 - that we looked robotic; playing by rote. And once we were worked out, we had no response.

UAEguy2020

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

We're not. There is no search for monsters - it's just folk talking on this forum.

Ulster, certainly, want to have skilful, fast forwards. Our solitary second row in the academy proper is an ex sevens player.

On another forum someone is talking about Irish teams looking over-coached; unable to react. They suggested that that's why it took half-time before Leinster could turn it round - they had to hear it from the coach.

It's certainly something that we were saying about the national team in 2019 - that we looked robotic; playing by rote. And once we were worked out, we had no response.

I wouldn’t say it’s something the coaches are looking for, it’s something the fans pick out but I feel personally it’s a cop out.

That is exactly the problem but it’s also another reason why I think Andy Farrell is the right man for the Irish job, for me he is a very Warren Gatland type of coach where he will trust the players to make the right decision and I think sums this up with naming his 23 on a Monday before games, that is sending out a clear message that he trusts his team from the off and gives his team the whole week to get their head in the game.

Watching the Leinster game made me think it it’s a mental thing because the players who didn’t seem to take any steps back (didn’t play at their best most of them but for sure weren’t frightened by the physicality) were Connors,Doris,Ryan and then Baird and Kelleher off the bench and what they have in common is bar Ryan who is a freak of nature the rest have not really been part of the England/Saracens **** show in the past 18 months and therefore don’t fear it as much.


Under Schmidt when things didn’t go Ireland’s way Ireland were the least adaptable team of any of the tier one nations...either we would lose the game or the opposite would win, either way the result was the same and the Japan game at the RWC summed it up.

Bazzo

StackSteevens wrote: »

Yet curiously, an underpowered Saints managed it against the Chiefs yesterday while the pride of the Pro 14, in Leinster and Ulster wilted.

I wonder why? Perhaps you need to get out of the Pro 14 bubble occasionally and smell the coffee.

I watched the Exeter Northampton match and there was never a single doubt in my mind that Exeter would win from the first minute, they ended up winning by 23 points???

StackSteevens

Buer wrote: »

Northampton managed what, exactly?

To compete. (I assume you were still weeping into your alcohol-free beer at Ulster's capitulation, so missed the game.)

irishbucsfan

StackSteevens wrote: »

To compete. (I assume you were still weeping into your alcohol-free beer at Ulster's capitulation, so missed the game.)

They competed by losing by 23 points.

Whereas Leinster were within a score in the last 10 minutes. But they wilted.

Yep, good stuff

StackSteevens

Bazzo wrote: »

I watched the Exeter Northampton match and there was never a single doubt in my mind that Exeter would win from the first minute, they ended up winning by 23 points???

My point isn't that Saints won - because that was never going to happen!

It was that they were able to match the Chiefs in physicality (apart from the scrum where their propping crisis was evident) and were probably the better team in the first half being unlucky to go in trailing 14 - 8.

In previous years, Irish Provincial Teams going into the ECC knock out stages would have had a nucleus of players who were physically and mentally up to speed following the 6 Nations, but this season they only had the Pro 14 faction fight matches to bring them uip to speed. And it showed.

I can't understand the laughable bigging up of the Pro 14. It's a mediocre league with only a handful of decent teams in it (including 3 of the Irish provinces - which may give some distorted view of its quality); and - through no fault of the IRFU - it's going backwards.

UAEguy2020

StackSteevens wrote: »

My point isn't that Saints won - because that was never going to happen!

It was that they were able to match the Chiefs in physicality (apart from the scrum where their propping crisis was evident) and were probably the better team in the first half being unlucky to go in trailing 14 - 8.

In previous years, Irish Provincial Teams going into the ECC knock out stages would have had a nucleus of players who were physically and mentally up to speed following the 6 Nations, but this season they only had the Pro 14 faction fight matches to bring them uip to speed. And it showed.

I can't understand the laughable bigging up of the Pro 14. It's a mediocre league with only a handful of decent teams in it (including 3 of the Irish provinces - which may give some distorted view of its quality); and - through no fault of the IRFU - it's going backwards.

The last 3 years we have had more pro14 sides than premiership sides in the the semi and even in 2018 we had no premiership side in the last 4 and had THREE pro14 sides yet you had none of this hysteria...

This is the exact sort of knee jerk reaction I had hoped we were smart enough to have moved in from but sadly I set the bar too high.

StackSteevens

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They competed by losing by 23 points.

Whereas Leinster were within a score in the last 10 minutes. But they wilted.

Yep, good stuff

At least the weakened Saints were able to compete - Leinster and Ulster weren't.

In summary:

Two Pro 14 teams went into the knockout stages under-cooked and were comprehensively beaten.

Three APL teams went into the knockout stages (completely under-cooked due to their inferior league according to some) and two of them are now in the semis.

But you and others persist in believing that the Pro 14 isn't an inferior competition!

There's not really much point in debating the subject with you, is there?

Paul Smeenus

The Pro14 management didn't lose to Saracens. Ulster didn't, Munster didn't, Zebre didn't.

The league isn't amazing by any stretch, but this determined effort to deflect the blame for the loss off Cullen, Lancaster and the Leinster players onto the rest of the league for not being good enough at providing the boys in blue with enough challenges is getting a bit old.

UAEguy2020

StackSteevens wrote: »

At least the weakened Saints were able to compete - Leinster and Ulster weren't.

In summary:

Two Pro 14 teams went into the knockout stages under-cooked and were comprehensively beaten.

Three APL teams went into the knockout stages (completely under-cooked due to their inferior league according to some) and two of them are now in the semis.

But you and others persist in believing that the Pro 14 isn't an inferior competition!

There's not really much point in debating the subject with you, is there?

You call losing by 23 competing but losing by 8 not competing?

What about when 2 pro14 sides went to the semis in 2019 & 2017 and 3 in 2018... surely that trend should tell which league really has the strongest teams. Compared to 1 in 2019 & 2017 and 0 in 2018 from the premiership. You must be trolling surely, you don’t actually believe this nonsense as if you do I’m seriously concerned.

aloooof

Generally, these things are cyclical. Even the arguments for or against are cyclical... How often do we her derivatives of the following?

When the Premiership teams are winning it's cos they're battle-hardened. When they're losing it's cos they're fatigued / over-worked.

When the Pro14 teams are winning it's cos they get to rest players. When they're losing it's cos they're under-cooked.