Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

StackSteevens

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The last 3 years we have had more pro14 sides than premiership sides in the the semi and even in 2018 we had no premiership side in the last 4 and had THREE pro14 sides yet you had none of this hysteria...


This is the exact sort of knee jerk reaction I had hoped we were smart enough to have moved in from but sadly I set the bar too high.

This isn't hysteria, nor is it knee-jerk. It's simply pointing out that the two best sides in the Pro 14 were stuffed (physically) by teams from the APL and the Top 14.

And history lessons aren't of much use. Three years ago, Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow were decent teams. This season just ended they weren't. And nothing has come up to replace them. Two years ago we won the Grand Slam. And we all know what happend in Japan a year ago.

The only thing that stands still appears to be the belief (among some) that we're not going backwards - at a rate of knots.

errlloyd

The team isn't worse than Saracens, they just bottled it. When Saracens needed to they had more of an emotional well to go to, probably for a variety of off-field reasons.

Saracens barely ran 100m. They only beat one defender. Aside from that one linebreak they never really looked like scoring. They were taking nonsense dropgoals and kicking penalties for goal from everywhere. If Sarries had made the early mistakes it is hard to see how they would have got back into the game. They had little to offer really.

Before Sexton went off we were actually capable of moving forward with relative ease. We got to their redzone a heap of times! We were unfortunate not to turn a number of redzone opportunities into tries in the first half.

The real killer was that every single scrum put in they had looked like it would be a penalty - but we kept giving them opportunities for scrum put-ins. It meant that when Baird got choke tackled, or our 5m lineout was unplayable (which happened twice) we didn't just lose the ball, but we lost 40m as well.

aloooof

StackSteevens wrote: »

At least the weakened Saints were able to compete - Leinster and Ulster weren't.

In summary:

Two Pro 14 teams went into the knockout stages under-cooked and were comprehensively beaten.

Three APL teams went into the knockout stages (completely under-cooked due to their inferior league according to some) and two of them are now in the semis.

But you and others persist in believing that the Pro 14 isn't an inferior competition!

There's not really much point in debating the subject with you, is there?

If you're claiming the Pro14 as inferior this season, are you willing to admit that it was superior in the last 3 seasons? Cos if you're not, then I agree, there is no point in debating the subject with you.

UAEguy2020

It was the same BS in 2016 when in fact it was an exception to the rule. No one really fancied Ulster away to Toulouse anyway so it was always on the Leinster Saracens game which are traditionally the two powerhouses of Europe, this knee jerk reaction is based on shockingly one brilliant side beating another brilliant side. Literally no other side in Europe could do to Leinster as effectively and efficiently what Saracens did to Leinster and that’s the reality, any other team try to do what Saracens did they would get stuffed eventually but Saracens have so much belief in their structures and themselves that they never broke.

UAEguy2020

StackSteevens wrote: »

This isn't hysteria, nor is it knee-jerk. It's simply pointing out that the two best sides in the Pro 14 were stuffed (physically) by teams from the APL and the Top 14.

And history lessons aren't of much use. Three years ago, Scarlets, Ospreys and Glasgow were decent teams. This season just ended they weren't. And nothing has come up to replace them. Two years ago we won the Grand Slam. And we all know what happend in Japan a year ago.

The only thing that stands still appears to be the belief (among some) that we're not going backwards - at a rate of knots.

If so why weren’t you here claiming any of this guff before the match? It’s no good being an expert in hindsight. By brilliant APL sides you mean literally ONE side, one side doesn’t make a brilliant league. We aren’t going backwards at a rate of nots, you are exadurating again, it was one game ONE game.

StackSteevens

aloooof wrote: »

Generally, these things are cyclical. Even the arguments for or against are cyclical... How often do we her derivatives of the following?

When the Premiership teams are winning it's cos they're battle-hardened. When they're losing it's cos they're fatigued / over-worked.

When the Pro14 teams are winning it's cos they get to rest players. When they're losing it's cos they're under-cooked.

This season is an aberration due to Covid 19. That's why references to past seasons are somewhat irrelevant.

So isolate this resumed season and look at the warm up games that Leinster and Ulster had over the past 4 weekends. Then answer honestly the following question: do you believe that either Leinster or Ulster (the two best teams in Pro 14) were physically and mentally prepared for the intensity and ferocity that they encountered in the weekend's games?

That's all. Over and out.

irishbucsfan

StackSteevens wrote: »

At least the weakened Saints were able to compete - Leinster and Ulster weren't.

The saints lost by 3 scores.

Leinster were within a score in the last 10 minutes.

This is really veering off into dumb-dumb territory very quickly.

Leinster were well beaten in the first half because of poor decision-making and use of possession. Wigglesworth made no such errors. That was the difference. The Pro 14 doesn’t enter into it.

StackSteevens

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If so why weren’t you here claiming any of this guff before the match? It’s no good being an expert in hindsight. By brilliant APL sides you mean literally ONE side, one side doesn’t make a brilliant league. We aren’t going backwards at a rate of nots, you are exadurating again, it was one game ONE game.

Be a dear and link me to the post where I wrote "brilliant APL sides".

UAEguy2020

StackSteevens wrote: »

This season is an aberration due to Covid 19. That's why references to past seasons are somewhat irrelevant.

So isolate this resumed season and look at the warm up games that Leinster and Ulster had over the past 4 weekends. Then answer honestly the following question: do you believe that either Leinster or Ulster (the two best teams in Pro 14) were physically and mentally prepared for the intensity and ferocity that they encountered in the weekend's games?

That's all. Over and out.

It’s always irrelevant when it doesn’t suit your argument right?

StackSteevens

aloooof wrote: »

If you're claiming the Pro14 as inferior this season, are you willing to admit that it was superior in the last 3 seasons? Cos if you're not, then I agree, there is no point in debating the subject with you.

I'm dealing with the here and now - the past is irrelevant.

hirondelle

StackSteevens wrote: »

This season is an aberration due to Covid 19. That's why references to past seasons are somewhat irrelevant.

So isolate this resumed season and look at the warm up games that Leinster and Ulster had over the past 4 weekends. Then answer honestly the following question: do you believe that either Leinster or Ulster (the two best teams in Pro 14) were physically and mentally prepared for the intensity and ferocity that they encountered in the weekend's games?

That's all. Over and out.

So how would you characterise Saracen's last number of games? Intense and ferocious?
Due to covid, the premiership games have been a farce, so Sarries really weren't tested more than us in the run up.

StackSteevens

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

It’s always irrelevant when it doesn’t suit your argument right?

No; it's irrelevant because things change. Sometimes change comes quickly and sometimes it comes slowly, but change is alway happening.

There have been times in the past twenty years when the CL/Magners/Pro 12/Pro 14 has been top dog. There have been times when the Premiership has been and there have been times when the Top 14 has been. It's not set in stone, nor should it be.

Currently the Pro 14 is in decline; many of the top Scottish and Welsh players have moved to other leagues which has weakened their teams' quality. I'd like to see it improve, beacuse, frankly, I don't derive much satisfaction from knowing that, barring a disaster, Leinster wil top their Conference yet again, will probably get to the Pro 12 Final* yet again and will probably win it again.

(*I think it's Pro 12 next season - unless the organisers can pull some new teams out of the hat).

irishbucsfan

It’s a bit of a shame Saracens won’t be around next season for another shot at them

StackSteevens

hirondelle wrote: »

So how would you characterise Saracen's last number of games? Intense and ferocious?

Due to covid, the premiership games have been a farce, so Sarries really weren't tested more than us in the run up.

Have you watched them? They didn't look particularly farcical to me. In fact I don't think that the Sarries or Exeter mindset is capable of handling farce particularly well. It would be rather stupid of Owen Farrell to incur a red card in a meaningless game, don't you think?

hirondelle

StackSteevens wrote: »

Have you watched them? They didn't look particularly farcical to me. In fact I don't think that the Sarries or Exeter mindset is capable of handling farce particularly well. It would be rather stupid of Owen Farrell to incur a red card in a meaningless game, don't you think?

I saw a fair bit of the Premiership since it resumed and there were mismatches all over the place five day turnarounds in some cases), so definitely some farcical A-B team affairs. Sarries and Exeter are clearly better teams than anyone else in the league so will stand out- as we did in our league.

So, it wouldn't have been stupid for Farrell to make that hit in a meaningful game would appear to be your logic for the last point- it was a ridiculous hit and was totally out of character with the overall play in that game, so I wouldn't be hanging too much out of Farrell's inability not to let his inner thug surface every now and again.

rayd3

thomond2006 wrote: »

It appears Simon Zebo may not be renewed by Racing 92.

Leinster should sign him.

Think this idea has a few more backers in South Dublin this week.

Buer

StackSteevens wrote: »

Have you watched them? They didn't look particularly farcical to me. In fact I don't think that the Sarries or Exeter mindset is capable of handling farce particularly well. It would be rather stupid of Owen Farrell to incur a red card in a meaningless game, don't you think?

It was rather stupid as it was a meaningless game for them. Saracens largely first choice team lost at home to a heavily depleted Wasps side (and the game was completely in the balance when the red card occurred). Gopperth put in a great showing on the day and Wasps bossed the breakdown. Saracens treated it as a training run to get minutes under their belt.

There's very little logic or evidence to the case you're trying to make. The same conversation is had every season when the provinces are eliminated. In the seasons that a province wins, the opposite argument is being made. It's reactionary guff.

Downlinz

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No one really fancied Ulster away to Toulouse anyway so it was always on the Leinster Saracens game which are traditionally the two powerhouses of Europe

Leinster have only won 1 European cup in the last 8 years, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Saracens.

sydthebeat

Downlinz wrote: »

Leinster have only won 1 European cup in the last 8 years, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Saracens.

Hahahaha

molloyjh

StackSteevens wrote: »

My point isn't that Saints won - because that was never going to happen!

It was that they were able to match the Chiefs in physicality (apart from the scrum where their propping crisis was evident) and were probably the better team in the first half being unlucky to go in trailing 14 - 8.

In previous years, Irish Provincial Teams going into the ECC knock out stages would have had a nucleus of players who were physically and mentally up to speed following the 6 Nations, but this season they only had the Pro 14 faction fight matches to bring them uip to speed. And it showed.

I can't understand the laughable bigging up of the Pro 14. It's a mediocre league with only a handful of decent teams in it (including 3 of the Irish provinces - which may give some distorted view of its quality); and - through no fault of the IRFU - it's going backwards.

This post genuinely made me laugh.

So let's get this straight. Saints were able to match Exeter physically (except in the scrum) and so were competitive in their 23 point defeat. Leinster were not able to compete physically and so were not competitive in their 8 point defeat.

Yet Northampton made only 72% of their tackles, missing 31 of them. They only made about 56% of the metres than Exeter made and managed < 120% gain line carries despite > 40% more possession. Their ruck success was 97%.

On the other hand Leinster made 96% of their tackles missing only 3. They made over 220% more metres and almost 350% more gainline carries than Saracens with about 70% more possession. Our ruck success was 98%.

Relatively speaking those stats suggest Leinster were more competitive in every aspect than Northampton, which the scoreline would certainly back up. Billy Vunipola made 22m off 13 carries. Compared to Sam Simmonds 46m off 12 carries. The Saracens back row made a total of 27m off 18 carries compared to 105m off 26 carries for Exeter and 52m off 27 carries for Leinster.

If we really did wilt physically, where exactly has that manifested itself in stats or on the scoreboard?

UAEguy2020

Downlinz wrote: »

Leinster have only won 1 European cup in the last 8 years, they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Saracens.

They won’t be after this season for awhile atleast.

salmocab

rayd3 wrote: »

Think this idea has a few more backers in South Dublin this week.

Utter nonsense

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It’s a bit of a shame Saracens won’t be around next season for another shot at them

Really sticks in the craw. Losing to them stings worse than maybe any other team. It's two games now where I'd argue we could've won but bottled it completely.

A fair few hangovers still being nursed on Monday morning :pac:

Richie_Rich89

It's not all doom and gloom. Yes, it was a disappointing reverse at the weekend. And all the media talk of Leinster being the best club side in the world was cringeworthy - play-off v Crusaders to determine who's best etc. when Leinster weren't even the reigning European champions.

True. Leinster only made the last 8, but I'd say they're still the 3rd best team in Europe after Saracens and Racing. I'd back them to beat Toulouse and Exeter more often than not if they played each of them 10 times. They would be well worth a place in the semi finals in my opinion, and were just unlucky to get the greatest side in the history of European rugby in the first knock-out round. Munster have run into the same problem in recent years - getting knocked out by Saracens sides who would go on to win the competition in 2017 and 2019.

Richie_Rich89

rayd3 wrote: »

Think this idea has a few more backers in South Dublin this week.

Zebo is a quality player. His prowess under the high ball would definitely have been an asset for Leinster last Saturday. Prime Zebo would walk into the Ireland team at fullback right now.

Think I'd prefer Leinster to have a look at Keenan at 15 going forward, though.

AbusesToilets

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Zebo is a quality player. His prowess under the high ball would definitely have been an asset for Leinster last Saturday. Prime Zebo would walk into the Ireland team at fullback right now.

Think I'd prefer Leinster to have a look at Keenan at 15 going forward, though.

Keenan was definitely the best of them under the ball

Clegg

It's for a headbutt on Henshaw in the 2nd minute that was missed by the referee and TMO.

https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1308081051420459014?s=19

Richie_Rich89

Clegg wrote: »

It's for a headbutt on Henshaw in the 2nd minute that was missed by the referee and TMO.

https://twitter.com/Saracens/status/1308081051420459014?s=19

Murray Kinsella has a GIF of it on his twitter. Rhodes is a quality player. It would be a pity for him if he missed the semi final.

Richie_Rich89

Leinster's first-choice XXIII next season?

1. Peter Dooley
2. Ronan Kelleher
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. James Ryan
5. Devin Toner
6. Ryan Baird
7. Will Connors
8. Caelan Doris
9. Jamison Gibson-Park
10. Jonathan Sexton
11. James Lowe
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Garry Ringrose
14. David Kearney
15. Hugo Keenan

16. Dan Sheehan
17. Cian Healy
18. Andrew Porter
19. Jack Dunne
20. Max Deegan
21. Luke McGrath
22. Harry Byrne
23. Jordan Larmour